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                  Art and Culture
1. Art and Culture

SIDE A


OK, today's topic is art and culture and this is kind of like a modern topic, something we can kind of, um, get into here. This is Viv.

Vivian: Yes, well, art and culture, it's such a broad, ah rather spectrum to discuss, You know, I really have to admit that I'd love to be thought of as arty farty, but I don't think I am, so I'm just gonna turn it to you, Bow.
Bow: Hey, my name is Bow. I consider myself arty fatty, but, um, yes I like things from, everything from Hycroppoties to Matisse to Picasso, and Mondrian, and culture, you know everything from the West Indies, you know, pygmies to Yoga.
Luke: That's cool, I don't, I never really thought I was arty, I used to really try, really hard to be arty. I used to try to play guitar, but I wasn't very good at that, and then I tried painting, and I wasn't very good at that. But then I started painting guitars, and um, I have a whole collection of painted guitars. I call it "Guit-art" and urn, I hope I can start hanging it up at museums pretty soon, so look up for it.
Vivian: And I got one of those in my bathroom, too?
Luke: Yeah, talk to me, if you need my number or whatever...
Daisy: Anyway, Let's get into it.
Luke: O.K.

Daisy: O.K. Well, you know, I often considered myself, you know, to have quite a good appreciation of art. But these days, what constitutes art, could be many different things. So, what do you think then is Art, and what makes Art, Art.

Luke: I guess the main thing for me that would constitute Art is, um, it's, well, basically in it's purest form. Art is just this random spurting of creative impulse, like, if you will. And it doesn't really have a purpose, a functional purpose, except for functional Art, I guess. Which by its own definition is, has a purpose, and has a function. But, well, I mean, just pure Art in itself is, um, is something that doesn't really serve any purpose, like it, it won't, it won't grate your cheese, and it won't, you know make your hair smell nice or anything.

Daisy: So, then, you're saying that Art is, functional only for the person that creates it? Cause, Paul Cezanne said that, that Art was in the process, not the finished product, so, if it doesn't serve a purpose, is it only serving some type of, release for the artist himself?

Luke: Or the appreciator of the Art, someone, obviously, people who appreciate Art, appreciate, the same that was evident when the art was created.

Daisy: So then, it does serve a purpose.

Luke: Of course, but not that sort of tangible functional purpose, I mean, it's more of a spiritual purpose, it's more a personal purpose.

Bow: Except for functional Art.

Luke: Except for functional Art like a really cool looking chair. It's cool looking and it maybe might, make you feel something. If it's red, it might make you think, "Ooh, I'm, feeling very passionate, that really speaks to me", and then when you sit it in, you're sitting down, and, hey...

Bow: So, O.K. What do you think about,... Ducharnp, and his Urinals and things like that, Do you believe that, that was Art or not?

Luke: I'd have to see his stuff, I guess.

Bow: Well, it's a urinal.

Luke: It's a urinal?

Bow: Yeah, he just took a urinal off the wall.

Daisy: But, wasn't he the first person to ever do that?

Bow: Well, that's the thing.

Daisy: Right, I mean, it's the same thing with Andy Warhol and his cans of soup, the fact that he did something different, created a whole new genre of Art, which, you know, is artistic in itself to be able to do something individualistic.

Bow: But, is it Art just because of in that sense, it's shocking, because no one's done it before. So,... is shocking Art considered Art?

Luke: Sure, I think it says something about society, it's a bit of a reflection of society. I think that Andy Warhol and the tomato cans, was saying something about like advertising, and no one had been around like this much like banners and this iconographic sort of representation of just everyday things (Bow: According to Andy Warhol) he blew that up. But I mean, a lot people responded to it, and like the comic books and stuff. And just these like really simple images that are just everywhere that becomes the part of the collective consciousness.

Vivian: O.K. But for simple me, who's not interested in Art. Who has no, you know, no idea, no concept, no grasp of aa in depth part of any of the Arts. For me, I just define Art as music, Art. What else is there?

Daisy: Yeah.

Vivian: Yeah, well like any sort of performance, ok. That's Art. It is what someone says, it's what, I define it in my simple mind, but then, when you guys talk like this then it sounds to me like, it's any sort of simple personal (Daisy: Expression?) expression of yourself, of your emotions, of yourself, of anything, so, dance through music, through song, through, through any of those venuses, you can express yourself, and that is Art.

Daisy: You know, Alice Walker, who wrote, the movie "The Color Purple", with the book, she wrote an essay about Art and women artists, because it's been quite a struggle for women to become successful artists, especially, you know, way back in the 50's or in the 40's. But, she was saying that, you know, it's been a struggle for women, but think about what it was like for the slaves, in America, when they first came here. Not only were women, like chattels and basically worked all the time. If they were, did have an artistic soul, how were they going to express it? And she was saying that they expressed it in everyday things. Look at the quilts that African American women made.

Vivian: I was just about to say that.

Daisy: Things like that.

Vivian: Look at the clothes and the quilts that they made. Those are expression of themselves.

Daisy: The negro spirituals that they sang while they were working on, you know, the farms and things like that. There was always an expression of Art, even though, they were in a position in society, where they weren't able to sell it or share it with other people. They share, shared it with their family, and passed it on as heirlooms to their family.

Bow: And through their Art, they have created their own culture.

Daisy: Right.

Bow: And I believe that this is something that, they are forgetting about, here in Korea. I think that they used to have a really strong culture and they had, great art, they still do, I mean, some old things. But they're losing that in the face of, you know, capitalism and ... I think Korea is really losing its national identity that it once had. Whereas uh, if they could take some of those traditional Arts that were so strong, and mix them with modern day ideas. Then they would create their own national identity and then create their own culture, again. And, for bands, and stuff like that, they just rip off other music and just change the language is not doing that. I think that, you know, taking some of the... I'm not a musician, but in all aspects of if in fashion. They actually started a little bit in, for example, the Korean traditional clothes, they're making them more contemporary looking but they are based on the design of the Korean style. Architecture, not so much, it's more based on, again capitalism (Luke: Function) and population, and you know, putting as many people into the maximizing the space and things like that. And whereas traditional style, Korean architecture, was just amazing. It was, there was so much spirituality and philosophy in it, that it, it came, you know, from these people's inspirations and their culture and they created these great pieces of, these great works. And for one example, is take Japan. Japan has a very strong contemporary national identity. If you see, well, ok, whatever, whoever studied what. like I studied, for example, I studied architecture, so when I see a contemporary style building, I can tell you if it's Japanese or not. If you here a piece of music, that, you know, probably can figure out that it's Japanese contemporary style, or clothing or painting. They have, um, they have always have been good at, doing that, getting together and saying that, we're gonna take a piece of our tradition and we’re gonna mix it with this new stuff. Whereas in other countries, um, they're just taking it on, full on. All Right.

Bow: Well, I mean, it is starting a little bit here, but it's not, they don't quite have the idea.

Daisy: Yeah, which gets back to the point I think we were talking about before, with the urinal and the, you know, and Andy Warhol. What they did was incredibly simplistic, you know, in the basest form of simplicity, ripping a urinal, you know, off a wall or putting painting a picture of a soup can.

Vivian: They weren't trying to complicate it anymore than it was.

Daisy: But, it was the fact that, it, it had never been down before and it was shocking, and that, I think is the essence of most Art. Something that is original and individualistic, and the problem here is, of course, you can take styles and blend them to create something new. But if you're just borrowing and doing something that is old and been done before, and you're not putting... Korea for example, Their old, historical art, and their historical music is that uniquely Korean. And we don't have their Asian scale or we don't in music, we don't have their Asian design, their uniquely Korean design. And if they are able to encourage that, make it modern, and make something that is new, and just not borrow songs from everyone else. Then they will have a complete and whole artistic culture.

Luke: But Art is, informed by many things and depending on where the, it says lot about the culture. And the what the values of a culture are, and it says a lot about the values of... and culture in turn feeds off Art. There's a bit of a hybridization and cross-pollinization of those two things. Because when you get right down to it, everything kind of has been done, everything has kind of been said. But as cultures evolve and as they cross-pollinate, ideas spread around, people take that and things germinate and these, weird new formations come up. And I think that's the thing, like, in this day an age, where everything has really just been done to death. It seems, and shock value is the only thing you can do now, like taking, like, religious icons and pissing on them or something. That's not, that doesn't really seem like art... it kind of is but I mean, there's so much stuff you can get just in the world around you and just like taking it with you and borrowing it and making a pastiche of stuff.

Daisy: Right.

Vivian: When you travel to a different country, what is the whole point of travelling there. Because there, it's, you want to experience their culture and their national whatever. You wanna, you wanna see, "Oh, this is their national dress, these are their buildings," this is the reason why this country is unique. Why do you wanna visit Vietnam? Why do you wanna go to Japan? Well, I wanna see them in their cultural, this is why their country is different from ours. You see all these Koreans shows on TV. They go to Bulgaria, they go to Canada, they go to Germany. Why? Because, oh, in this country, they have these huge beer halls and they drink beers in these like fifty-foot tall glasses or whatever, you know. That is makes that country distinct and unique and it's own. And, ok, we can't live in the past, but, you modernize that to configure it with today.

Daisy: Right.

Bow: I think that that's the problem. If you go to other museums, and look at other cultures, and their Art, and you study their culture through their Art. It's usually, in a display an exhibition set up chronologically, you see from this is what (Vivian: Time)... Yes, time, this is what is was then and it's moved to here and moved into, you know, certain areas into contemporary times. But, here, this is the strange part, it goes up to a certain time. And, that's pretty much it. All Stops... Yeah, it's not evolving.

Bow: Yeah, that's the end of that.

Daisy: That's not evolving.

Luke: Well, that was a, that was a,... I think that was a political thing. Wasn't there the, one of the presidents I think, had this big industrial boom. And the only emphasis that was that ever put on anything was like we have to develop everything, we have to make buildings quick. (Bow: Exactly) And just like we have to make as many and as fast as possible, and screw the Art. (Vivian: But thats the whole) And just now, I think that they're coming back to this place where, it's sort of like, we have to, we have to live in this city, we have to make it livable, we have to make it nice (Daisy: Aesthetically) aesthetically and that's the artistic, that's the artistic element which has sort of gotten (Vivian: Lost??) put on the back-burner throughout the whole development of a lot of these cities.., in...

Bow: That's why they lost their national identity. Because, you, it's got to be a consistent thing, you can't just stop it dead-on and say like "We will just fix it later once we get a bunch of money."

Daisy: But, it is their, culture, ok, for us as far us to come in and say (Vivian: Criticize?) this is wrong and you have to change this.

Bow: I don't think we're saying it's wrong. It's just, I mean in our opinions, yeah, it's our opinions, yeah, it might be wrong. But yeah, you know, we can't necessarily say that we can give advice like, you know, this is what everybody should do. I mean it, just seems common sense.

Vivian: Not in defense of the Korean side, because we aren't attacking I want to say, but, I mean, look at the Korean situation. We're saying, yeah, go back to your roots and pull from it, you know, and develop, modernize it, so that, you know, it blends in with, you know other ideas of today. But at the same time, look at the Korean culture, fifty years ago, the country was devastated, they lost everything and everything was in, you know, shambles on the ground and they rebuilt the city of Seoul for example, and now it is not a third world country, but it is a very much industrialized city, that can compete with many other, you know, they're in the what top ten cities, biggest cities of the world.

Daisy: Well, you know, I think that where this discussion is going can be a, can relate to any country in the world. Because culture and Art, I think go hand in hand. Art is part of a culture in many different cultures express their souls in different artistic ways that may offend many Westerners' artistic sensibilities. So, where do we draw the line, where do we look at a culture and say "this is ok, but this is not ok" or is it even OK, for us to go into a culture and do that?

Bow: O.K. I was asked this one time, just to determine how people think about Art or not. If they're, whether they're artists or not businessmen, they say if there's a house and in this house there is a Mona Lisa, the original, and the... (Vivian: Oh really?) Yes, and the original Mona Lisa and there's the painting of Jackson Pollock where he painted the whole canvas just black. (Daisy: Right) And there's a fire in the house and you can only save one painting. You appreciate Art, but you only have a chance to save one, which one would you save?

Vivian: Well, people would say Mona Lisa because you can always go and paint other canvas black, Right? (Bow: No) But, at the same time, that's supposed to be a piece of Art.

Bow: I don't know. What is your opinion? (Vivian: That is the question) The question is what would you save?

Daisy: I wouldn't. I would save myself.

Bow: No, you can, you have, you have a chance, you can save one. You are an art-lover.

Vivian: Like I said, yeah, probably the Mona Lisa, Obviously that is the right answer?

Bow: No, There's no right or wrong answer, just like, do you know why you would save that?

Vivian: Yeah, I just said. Because you could paint another canvas black. (Daisy: Black) and then pass it off as the same painting if you wanted.

Daisy: Well...

Luke: Plus it's worth more.

Bow: Well, that's what the thing is it's like, (Daisy: It's worth more.) do you think Art is, you know...?

Daisy: Dose it have a price on it... I probably if I really wanted to save something, I'd maybe save the Pollock. Because, I don't like the Mona Lisa. But that's just a, you know, I would hang a piece of pa, I would hang a piece of Art on my wall, because I liked it. But my question was more getting towards like, cultural relativism. You know, what is, is everything Art, including traditions or you know, (Luke: Customs?) culture, cultural customs, is it relative to culture? Or do we have the right to go into that country and say that this is wrong.

Vivian: O.K. And that is the debate even in America today, they're saying OHey, is burning of the flag is that symbolic is that showing, you know, what is that, the freedom of (Luke: Expression...) expression or is it offending someone. That's kind of along those line. You can never say what is right or wrong?

Daisy: But that's ok. For Americans to say that, to discuss that, because they're Americans. When I'm talking about is people going into other cultures and saying this is right or this is wrong.

Luke: Well, I mean, why not? It's been happening over the history of Art and culture, I mean. Romans and Greeks and (Vivian: History) and everybody and Europeans and Africans, and everything has been mixed together, in kind of an eclectic mix, and the...

Daisy: So it's ok, for organizations, like the U. N. to go in to countries and say this is violating human rights, for example, Eskimo culture, for thousands of years, they would kill their babies, because they didn't have enough food to eat. That was a tradition, obviously, born out of necessity, like most traditions are. But in a culture like that, say, you know, obviously, it's not like that, today. But, you know fifty years ago it was. Is it ok for organizations like the U. N. to go in and say it's wrong, or eating dog meat in Korea? Are allowed to go in there and say that that's wrong?

Bow: So you're talking about more in the aspect of culture (Daisy: Yes)

Vivian: The thing that are part of their culture. O.K. For someone from another society where that not is acceptable to come into, step into a different society where it is perfectly acceptable, I mean, it's not done intentionally with the thought of "Oh, I'm killing a baby or Oh, I'm killing dogs, because for the pleasure, what not?" But here it's just simply a part of the culture. It is a food or, you know. Stamina food, or whatever.

Daisy: So, is that OK? What do you think, Luke?

Luke: Um, I, kind of, it's ... a kind of got to sit on the fence on that one. I think there, there is a real danger to people going to other countries and taking this attitude of cultural superiority which I really resent. I don't think that Western culture... Western culture is superior to any other culture, but there is a sort of post colonial attitude among a lot of countries where they, to a degree, they are interested in what the more developed countries think of them and their practices and everything. But sometimes there's a bit of like danger in these more developed, quote unquote, developed countries coming in and criticizing stuff. I think there's, there's got to be enlightenment on both sides and agreement on there being differences and just, and interaction. And I think that the main thing is communication and having these things out in the open so that people can discuss them. That's a dangerous movement, or this might be opening another can of worms but with the political correctness aspect of things back home. And how people were told to stifle their ideas rather than express them. For example, there was, a bar I used to frequent, it was a sort of slash gallery, I think, Bow, you might remember this. It was a, the patrons were encouraged to paint on the canvases, with paints that were left out, and just create whatever they wanted as they were drinking and socializing. It was a really nice atmosphere. And, at want point someone made a painting, it was sort of a collage of things. But there was, a swastika, that was on the painting, is was very prominent, it was a sort of a dark painting over all. And later, it just sort of, was found on the floor, ripped to shreds. And I think that was really weird that someone would, would rather, I guess that's sort of a reaction to Art. And sometimes art has those reactions, but I think it's dangerous when people refuse to acknowledge those things and refuse to accept them, there's sort of the idea of censorship that's going on. And I think that's really dangerous because, just by pretending some attitude or some practices, don't exist, does not mean that they will cease to exist, I think, the basic thing is people have to be in communication with each other like with the dog issue, the eating dogs in Korea. I can't judge it, but I can, I can just speak with Koreans about my opinions on it, and they're, free to, and like say their opinions to me. I don't think I'm right, I don't think they're right. I think we are just people who have different opinions. And Art is sort of a stimulus for bringing those opinions out.

Daisy: And also, you know, I think that you know, you look at some cultures quite a funny story actually. There was this one culture, in New guinea and you know, Christianity has been the fastest spreading thing I think in Western culture, much more so probably than the internet. That, the, some missionaries from the United States went to this, went to New Guiana and they were just travelling around trying to convert the chris.., the natives there, to christianity. And the ironic thing is that they went in to this one tribe, and the tribe ate the missionaries. They were cannibals, you know. That's funny, I mean, that's one example of Western people not understanding other cultures and going in there without any knowledge, I mean, these people didn't know they were walking around in the bush, and they were basically, you know, meat.

Luke: Exactly, I would never, I would never criticize Korea, I've chosen to leave here for a long time, not because I hate the place, and I have great criticisms about it, if I'm asked about it, I'll point out things that, you know, I'm not that happy about. But I can do that with any where I am at, and you know, I definitely would not want to go to a country and say "Ah, you are doing it all wrong, blah, blah, blah, back where I come from, blah, blah, blah," you know. And some people have that attitude, and I think that's probably the worst kind of attitude you can come. Cause, there's so much to learn from different cultures. And that's what, that's really what it's all about, ultimately.

Vivian: But that's just it, of course, there are things that you don't agree with certain cultures with, same with me. There's lots of things that I don't agree with, but that's the fact of the matter, the fact of the matter is you are in a situation and a different culture and a different society where you, as long as you are there, you should be accepting to their cultures, there, even though, there are things that you don't agree with. Now, when you look at the large scale ...

Luke: Well, I'm not accepting of my own culture, there's a lot of things about my own culture I don't like.

Vivian: Sure, that's what I'm saying, there's lots of things we don't agree about. But when you look at the large scale and then you see this dominant country coming into a smaller country, it's like the opposite effect and yet you have more presence there; so you have more, you know, power to kind of pressure the people (Luke: Sure) or the culture.

Bow: But having a little bit of your own culture in another country does make it a hell of a lot easier to live there. I don't think I, if there wasn't any part of our culture whatsoever, I don't think we could last as long as we have here.

Daisy: Right, I think that's probably true. And actually, when you um, you go and you live in another culture, I think it's also true that you will absorb things of that culture as well. And you do change and evolve, and that's great thing. I think, you know, if, you are learning or you are teaching in some, you know, even, not even know at the conscious level. That's wonderful. But, I was wondering, you know, like most of, we talked about traditions and culture and a lot of those traditions are also perceived as Art as well, especially like, you know, in countries that, Luke brought out before, you know, in the middle east. A lot of their Art and their practices and their rituals, if you consider that to be Art, are taken from a religious perspective as well, which is very interesting.

Luke: Yeah, religious Art, and political art, are probably the gawdiest kinds of Art, I think. But...

Daisy: You think?

Luke: Yeah, but I think that that's alright. I think that, if you look at the old propaganda posters from the cold war and stuff (Daisy: Sure), and or if you just look at the pictures of you know, Christ and just crying and everybody crying, there were so like over the top and just, unnatural, that they sort of, they are sort of memorable for that reason.

Bow: But you have to remember that those artists or artisans who made that stuff were products of their own environment, you have learned form that time on, you've experienced what you have in your life. That's what they dedicated their lives to, they had a certain philosophy that we don't know. I think that some of that stuff is amazing, the Gothic cathedrals, that genera, that generations and generations of, families fathers and sons would work on. Just to make this.., they had the same concept and they had the same goal, I mean, that would never happen these days, in these days.

Daisy: So I guess, what we are probably getting on to here is that, is that Art is a product of your own environment and that time certainly religion was such a big deal, that you were, you were creating a lot of religious Art, or architecture and you know then we go into the phase of, you know, post modernism where you have, you know, the black canvases and things like that. (Luke: Existentialism) Yeah, existentialism. So, is it, actually, that the Art is imitating life, or is life imitating Art?

Luke: I think they mutually inform and influence each other.

Vivian: That's like asking, was the chicken or the egg, they both influence each other, of course. But anything that you're unfamiliar with is sort of like Art to you. Like when you enter into a culture where you are not familiar, everything is unique and different to you and becomes a form of Art, like Luke was saying religion or you know, not just tapestries or paintings but the actual religion itself is an art when you not familiar with it. When it's everyday to you it's nothing new, it's no big deal.

Bow: The difference I see in Art and culture, today is that, in the past, there was always a period of time or movements and now, because, maybe because of all that or, maybe because to go against all of that, there's, really not any sort of movement, no sort of (Daisy: Right) direction, it seems to me.

Daisy: It's very static, isn't it?

Bow: It is very static, and it just seems like everything is gonna turn into this, gonna turn into chaos it almost seems.

Daisy: Right, right, I think that's true not just in visual Art, either, I think the music industry for several, maybe even, over a decade now, has been extremely static. And there's only been maybe one or two artists that have really been, done inspiring things. But, I think perhaps, maybe we feel this way, but do not think that at the end of probably the classical period or, you know, the renaissance period (Vivian: There was a dead period) that there was, you know, this plane of levelling out, perhaps, you know, this is what's happening to us, we're ready to move into the next...

Luke: Or look at Retro everything, everything that's supposedly new, all the new trends and fads that are coming out here are borrowing like shamelessly from the past (Daisy: Exactly), past twenty years, past thirty years, forty years.

Vivian: Well, in any sort of movement you go up and down and up and down, and then you kind of plateau off and then you start all over again, like, Luke mentioned, with fashion anything that is popular today, not just today, you know, five years ago, that was the trend thirty years ago. And what's today is popular today. Twenty five years ago.

Bow: But you don't start off from the same starting point, and that's where it gets kinda mixed up. It's because, and I think it kind of parallels the evolution of technology. Like information, just the amount of information that is going into our brains, these days, then was before. Where people could concentrate more, like Michelangelo did his masterpiece in the Sistine chapel and you know, he didn't have the internet, you know, where he could get like details of hands and things like that. He had to actually, go out and maybe draw his own hand or, you know.

Vivian: He got dead bodies and he actually, dissected that himself.

Bow: Um. That was Da vinci (Daisy: Da vinci)

Vivian: Ok, but that's how they, you know.

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SIDE B
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Bow: Yeah, I just think that people today are bombarded with information and it's just clouding their true goal, I mean, I think, I believe basically everybody, every human or anybody that's able to think, is an artist. In the fact that everybody has ideas, and I think Art was probably created, I don't, maybe it shouldn't even be called Art, but we have to label it something, but it just to be the idea of getting that concept or idea into the three-dimensional world. Out of your brain into your hands, where you can actually see it. And it's physical. And sometimes that, what, if you do a good job, and you choose the right medium, then maybe one person or many people will be inspired from that, get their own ideas from it and then do the same thing.

Daisy: Right, I agree. And whether that medium be anything from cooking to (Luke: There's a lot of overlap) whittling woods or you know, whatever it is, if you, just do something (Bow: House work), exactly. But I do agree that I think Art in our society, and our society in general, has become extremely superficial, and I think that's why you see, you know, what the, what's the guy that did the urinal? What's his name again? (Bow: Duchamp) Yeah, when he did that, that was something new and it was something shocking, but what, the danger of those type of things is that other artists get on that bandwagon and think, "well, let's do something just for the shock value." (Vivian: It's a trend) And there is one particular very, very rich artistic, can't think of his name? Maybe you guys know, in ah, he's based in New York, and one of his, famous things that sold for over a million dollars is a fish tank with three basketballs floating in it. And he also does the, you know, the clipping, he made a hedge out of? What's his name?

Bow: Kunst.

Daisy: Yeah, Kunst. He, I watched tan interview with him, and he had the three balls in the fish tank and he went up to, him.., and the reporter said to him, "So, you know, I want to, I don't want you to think I'm ignorant or anything, please forgive me, but can you explain to me what this means?"

Vivian: "Why are you shooting baskets next to the aquarium and hey, you missed the basket and it fell in" (Bow: No) He' said.

Bow: He's, he's very articulate.

Daisy: Right, right, he's, he's, obviously, an extremely intelligent man, and he went on this whole existentialist tangent about "Well, it's, you know, it's human existence floating in the body of particles, of space and time," but he said it obviously a lot more eloquently than I just did. And afterwards he got him to explain each piece of Art. And when you listen to this man speak, you gotta sit there and go "Wow, he's smart, and he's eloquent, and he's intelligent." And the reporter's last comment at the end of the piece was "Well, the one thing that I discover today, is that anyone can be a successful artist, in the 90"s, if he has a good vocabulary." And that's exactly what, you know, the point was.

Luke: Maybe, maybe what Art's function is these days, is maybe just to infuse a certain degree, of, like, if it's too quirky. If the actual Art itself is too quirky, actually you were saying about the overlapping of things. It's sort of how it comes into food. If you have a nicely prepared meal, a dish in front of you, and it's artistic in it's own way I there's color, there's form, there's shape there's a sculptural quality to a lot of food. That's gonna be a lot more enjoyable to eat. Same with like architecture, or landscaping and stuff. People, if people are aware of Art and informed about Art, and the principles that sort of define Art. Maybe they bring that, they can incorporate that into culture. If everybody's thinking in those sorts of ways and functional, functional furniture and whatever, everything else that just sort of has a little bit of a kinda arty, kinda cool vibe about it. It's just sort of makes for a more, a more nice over all, aesthetic -- nice over all day to day life.

Vivian: Why does Art, the definition of Art has changed a long time. When you look at the past Artists, you know Leonardo Da vinci or any of those people, Picasso. They weren't looking for fame when they drew those, those were, you know, came from within and they were trying to express themselves. Nowadays, people express themselves, why? -- to become famous. (Luke: Exactly) Because, they want to, you know, find or discover something new that no one else has done, which is kind of what we've been discussing so far as. History has been repeating itself, and there's nothing new and original anymore. But that's just it, it doesn't have to be original it could be anything that you feel or want to express on paper or through anything. And then anyone else can look at that and feel something to and that should be what Art is, not something that, you know, everybody tried, this kind of pants, and those kind of pants, well why don't we try pants like these, because no one else has.

Bow: But I think you hit on a point, It's everybody should feel. And I think that even if, like people generally think of art as, in the positive way, feeling good about it, or being inspired, but a feeling can also be negative. (Vivian: Right, right) It's the same as like, as Kunst put it, you got a negative impression from this guy, you know, and that, if you were a sculptor, maybe that would inspire you not to do what he's doing and actually, make this masterpiece, that a million people would be inspired by. So I think it's all relative.

Daisy: I think that's a valued point. And I do think that, you know, whatever, whatever debate, you're having, over the history of time, extremists have been everywhere. Whether they be radical feminists or whether they have, you know, this will certainly offend some people, the Nazis. You know, I mean, basically, they were all extremists, and we have learnt things from them. Whether it be, not to do that, or to do that, I think extremism definitely serves its point in society and it is a necessary thing, for growth?

Luke: But they shouldn't, they shouldn't be censored. They should, I think censoring, censoring them is wrong. Because they just go underground. I think it's alright to have them up there and just say, well that sucks for these reasons. I think we have to understand that.

Vivian: Well let's take the recent, recent example, Eminem, not the candy that melts in your hands, but the Artist, ok? Lots of people don't like his stuff, lots of parents disagree and want to ban him, and don't want their children listening to it. But that is a form of Art, too. Right?

Bow: I believe, it's sound, he doesn't sound like an intellectual, but I believe in his, his idea, that is. He's like, in his lyrics, even though they rhyme, he is talking like people talk, at least, that's what I heard when I was going to school.

Vivian: But that's rap, you know, that, we...

Bow: You are agreeing.

Vivian: Yeah, I agree. That's rap, I mean, just because it may not be the type of music that you listen to, but, and they say, "Oh, it's loud, there're just rhyming", but it's not necessarily true, a lot of it. really does have al lot to say.

Bow: And this is the contradiction, too. Most kids learn swear words from their parents, they hear it from their dad. At least in my neighborhood, everyone, dad's swear, you know, to say like oh, no this guy is swearing and he's saying fag and stuff, you heard that from your dad like ten years before.

Vivian: He learned it from his dad (Daisy: But I think...)

Bow: Exactly.

Daisy: But musically, rap, I think was a natural evolution, not just lyrically, but, especially rhythmically. It came from obviously black people. And pretty much, all of our modern music, they have created from, you know, Jazz to Blues, and the, and then it went to Soul to Funk. And rhythmically, it was the natural evolution of their music. So, it certainly plays an important role in our music development. I don't think it should be laughed at, there's bad rap and there's good rap, of course. But, you know, it's an important part of our musical develop-ment.

Vivian: Sure, I mean it could be criticized the opposite way around, and I mean, if all the teens in the world that liked rap got together and said "Mom and Dad, we don't like that old country music you're listening to" you know.

Daisy: Which they probably do.

Vivian: Well the honky-tonk stuff, I mean.

Luke: And and the thing, it's like, it's not the issue that rap music is offensive, or the rhythms are offensive, it's the things that they're saying, within them, in the, violence against women, and violence against gays and stuff. But I mean, it wouldn't be popular if there wasn't, if there weren't people who were sort of going for that. I like yeah, "that speaks to me," you know.

Luke: That speaks to me, you know, to a degree.

Vivian: And that is...

Bow: And it may not be necessarily the thing. Yeah, but I mean that's, that's kinda, that's the thing it taps into a certain vein and becomes popular.

Daisy: Right.

Vivian: But, that's, that's like you speaking for themselves, well I mean, that is the movement among, no longer the X generation, but is it the E-generation, or whatever. I mean, but the youth of not just America, but any. country, most of them want, you know, they've got funky hair, and funky clothes and they're listening to this music that's totally against abortion, and this and that or pro or whatever.

Vivian: But, hey, (Daisy: They want something that's out there.) think back twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years ago, there's was flower power, they were against this and that. (Daisy: The Beatles? Beatles) Yeah, sure. (Daisy: The Beatles was banned in some states in America) The youth of any time period, (Daisy: Sure) (Luke: It's a generation gap, yeah) through Art and music to express themselves (Luke: Those things change fast) (Bow: In a America?)

Daisy: But they were, they were.

Bow: Not in Australia, though?

Daisy: No.

Bow: So Australia loves the Beatles, but America hates them.

Daisy: But, actually I was gonna talk about what Luke was just saying. That, there are people out there, that are actually liking this stuff that Emimen or other rap artists are talking about.

Vivian: Sure, even adults.

Daisy: Even if it means, you know, killing women, or you know, raping your mother, or whatever he talks about. But maybe, I was, it's just an idea, what you were saying before about political correctness, maybe there are other people out there like yourself, that are really sick of this, "I've gotta watch my "Ps and 's, and I'm not allowed to call this person this, I'm not allowed to burn the flag, I'm not allowed to do this, I'm not allowed to do that, maybe they're sick of that, and they want to get out there and have this shocking stuffs and (Luke: It's a reflex).., yeah...

Vivian: And, and I wanted to make my point, I mean, for those people who are always arguing, why don't they go and, if there are so man~ people out there like that, they can go and educate their children to not do stuff like that and to, you know, follow conservative or whatever views that you have. I mean they don't go out, all they do is sit there and complain about, you know, oh they're rapping here and they're talking about this and that. Well, they're not educating their own children, that's a whole different topic, isn't it?

Luke: As long as it gets a discussion going...

Bow: The interesting thing that I've noticed, is that, we are talking about Emimem and lyrics and rap and stuff, and that's why in the states they became popular, was because they're hearing, "Oh my God, he just said fag or something," so like that. But, Emimem is popular here, and most people don't even know what he's saying. Why is that, do you think?

Vivian: It sounds good to them, maybe.

Bow: Is that what it is? Is it the music? The rhythm?

Daisy: Well, well, I have to say that I think there's a lot better rap out there rhythmically than Emimen, I think it's pretty straight forward. His rap, it's not exactly technical or complex. But I have to say that he is popular so he's obviously been marketed in this country, and it's come to this country. And, when you have, what do they have to compare to, Korean rap? you know, it's gotta be better than that sorry to say.

Vivian: If you wanna scrutinize it that precisely in detail, hey, it's all PR, and marketing, ok? That's the reason why he's up there. (Daisy: They've got money, probably) There's lots of other rappers who sit there and talk about dope and killing their Mamas and Papas...

Daisy: You look at what's that band out now, that is, all the controversy is around. Is it DJ. Doc? They've got, their cd is all about police brutality and their down on the police and everything.

Vivian: They're saying.

Daisy: That was popular twenty years ago in the States, and Western countries, and that's now coming in now. Perhaps that's a reflection of the movement of this culture, that they are becoming more open-minded and they're going through what we, probably, went through twenty years ago.

Bow: Or just a different thing, like I heard in Japan, a lot of popular music is about MSG. They don't want monosodium glutamate in their food, so that's kind of a big issue.

Vivian: More they could still borrowing from another culture, and not coming up with their own lyrics, or ideas?

Daisy: Well, I think it's probably, more along the line that this culture is now, actually, their experience and an element of freedom of speech. And I think that they are, it's, it must be exciting to them, all of sudden these kids, even if they are not great musicians, they have an opportunity to say. "I think this sucks that police are this way, and I think this is terrible. And that, that's a gmat, thing to happen I think. Because they have definitely been oppressed for a long time by their own people, not by other people, but by their own government.

Vivian: But it's still being censored, I mean, the Korean government still censors a lot of music and (Daisy: Sure) I mean, even, like you said, DJ Doc, or is it Mr. Seo Tae.li, you know, a lot of their lyrics, even whole songs are completely censored, because there're foul language or the material...

Daisy: Right, they might have like beeps and things in there but it's still better than twenty years ago. I know one Korean artist who brought his album out, and there was no profanity in it whatsoever. And it was just because his lyrics were about, I guess, socialist ideas, and humanity (Bow: Who was that?) Bob Dylan like type lyrics. And his album was on sale for one hour before the government confiscated every copy of it and wouldn't let it be sold in the county. And I think we've come a long way in twenty years, and this is a good thing. And if culture and... I think that's what creates Art, is if people have this ability to express themselves.

Luke: But the danger in that, is what, sort of what starts happening, you see it a lot in the Western cultures, where they have marketing down to such an Art... is that controversy sells. And people would say anything just to become famous, just to make money. So it's not about people's better interests and it's not about what you really feel anymore, what, what really, what you're trying to reflect out of society. It's just like being such a...so out there, and so weird and trying shock so many people, that they talk about you and they hate you, so a large part of Emimen's appeal was, you know (Daisy: People hate you), people hated him and some people really liked him.

Vivian: That's the reason why we gave him his fame.

Luke: Sure, Yeah, And the more controversial stuff and Madonna made a whole career out of it, like she's offended everybody all the way through, but always just like a little bit, like...

Vivian: Too cool to really, really hate for real.

Luke: She never went too far out there, but, I mean, that's, that's the thing.

Vivian: And that's the reason why governments restrict Art, including music and TV and what not so much, is because they're afraid, you know, take eastern cultures, for example, in comparison with Western cultures. They're afraid that their society is going to change too much, you know, similarly too, Western cultures. And then there's gonna be violence in schools and then there's, it's gonna be disrupting their homes and the nice culture that they have.

Daisy: I don't know, you know, you look at like some of the animated books and cartoons in 3apan. I think they're way more offensive, than some of the rap that comes out of the United States. But I think that at this age, don't every single one of us think that we can look at some type of Art or music or entertainer and say, ok, this is the real deal, or this is crap, this is, you know, this is just somebody go in it for the shock value. I think if you're at this age you have the ability to do that, (Vivian: Sure) the danger, of course, and I think what govern-ments are trying to protect is children. But, I think that should be, you know, the parents' responsibility, and not the government's responsibility.

Vivian: Well, that was my whole point, too. Government restrict, in that for the sake of children and teens and what's...

Luke: But that's where the families have to be more responsible. It is true that celebrities really are the role models for kids these days, that wasn't the case in the past. And celebrity itself was never like a great thing, I mean now, you know, someone's really beautiful, and they're on a catalog or something supermodels, I like, they may not have anything interesting to say but people want to hear what they have to say. It's kinda bizarre, you know.

Vivian: It was kinda like the Wheel of Fortune Vanna White deal, you know, she was on there for like ten years, and everyone's like "hot babe, hot babe", they used to bet on what color dress she'd wear, every day of the week. (Daisy: Really?) Yeah. But then, all of a sudden one day, what was it, the early nineties? All of a sudden they said "We wanna hear Vanna talk" and so she started to say "Hi", and then the next line after a couple of months was "Hi everyone" and then now she actually has two lines to say on each show.

Luke: And it used to be like, it used to be like, the thinkers, the writers, and politicians, philosophers that would sort of form public opinion, who would be the people who sort of defined what a culture was about and now, it says a lot. In that the media, and the stars of the media are the ones sort of, are considered to be the artists and visionaries and the ones that kids wanna emulate, wanna be like, and there the ones who have such sway.

Vivian: But I agree they have a lot of force but I still agree parents all the way control everything. If they uh, got a real good grip on their children from an early start, if all the parents did, you know, the masses all together, you know, got together and said, "Hey, we're really watching our kids, we're giving them good foundations and morals and..."

Bow: You have to be told not to fully trust the media.

Daisy: Well, Bow, you know I know you have a child, and I was wondering how do, how do you feel about, like probably, pornographic comic books or that type of influence with your child?

Bow: I personally like them, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't like her to see them that early on, but the thing that's kind of interesting is like, the fact that they say it takes a village to raise a child. It's true, because, if you think about like, for example, these days children in the world, in most developed countries, they play video games, that's a fun thing for them. But in Japan, the more popular games are very, very violent. But, the real violence takes place in American schools, who aren't allow to play those games, you know. So, why is it? Is it because they see TV, because they're oppressed, why doesn't that much violence happen in Japan?

Daisy: Maybe we don't know about, well, they don't have guns, right?

Bow: Is that why? Is it because of guns? You think that there wouldn't be as much violence in America without the guns? I mean, yeah.

Daisy: I think that, well, people wouldn't die as often, I guess.

Vivian: But isn't, it always the fact with the things you don't know, the inhibitions that you have, anyway, anything that you want to, it's not open for you, to, like if your parents say, "Don't touch? you wanna touch.

Daisy: Uh. Interesting point. Then could Art be defined as an expression of something that has been suppressed. Perhaps that the, the sexual comic books and that type of behavior in Japan, that, is so common, is sexual, because of sexual repression in their culture?

Vivian: Maybe.

Luke: Yeah, it's a probably pretty hard one to sift through, well, I mean.

Bow: It depends on the content, too. I mean if you think about like, in America they say, you know, "Don't look at Playboys when you're young.", or something, but yeah, we want to, cause we, we like naked chicks, you know. But it's not like bondage or tying up woman or repressing them or anything, it's just like...

Vivian: Like what? A woman with big boobs?

Bow: Yeah, exactly.

Luke: What's the difference between pornography and erotica, though. They say that pornography is racy and offensive and very base in crass.

Daisy: It degrades women.

Luke: But erotica is artistic. (Bow: Who are they?) People, in general, they define, you know pornography is pornography and erotica is erotica, and erotica has this higher standing. And it (Daisy: Artistic.) has more of an artistic element to it.

Daisy: Well, I don't know, but you know, exactly, what you just said that Brandon there, I think like that, goes back to the point I made before that, (Bow: I'm Bow) you know, America... Exactly, what you just said that, Bow, it goes back to the point I was talking about before, that in America, you know, women, you were saying that, it just seems natural looking at woman with big boobs, but maybe that's because American society is not sexually repressed.

Bow: I think that, they think that pornography is when women are being debased in film or (Daisy: Yeah, like putting dog collars on them), exactly, when they're making woman to look bad, whereas erotica is more a mutual consensual thing between men and woman.

Daisy: Yeah, I think that's acceptable pornography or erotica, if you like, as long as both parties are involved in some mutually acceptable act. That's okay.

Luke: What about the Robert Mapplethorpe? Pornography or Art? Robert Napplethorpe was a homosexual photographer who took pictures of black men's penises but he also took pictures of flowers. And he had an exhibition, in Boston, of the black men's penises and there was protests that "This is the pornography".

Vivian: O.K. Then he was just a queer with like two personalities, ok? How about this? In a newspaper like six months ago, it was the Herald or something like that, there was a picture in the culture/Art section, it was about some movie set where they had like five hundred nude people lying in the streets. Well, I was, I just happen to be reading the opposite page when my friend's daughter comes running up and my friend and I were reading this one article on the opposite side, but she comes and says "There, you know, there's butt-naked people all over the picture on the newspaper" I mean, and then my friend was very, you know, kind of revolted, and she was like "How could they put like, you know, bare naked people on the newspaper".

Daisy: Well, there's bare naked people when having sex, I don't think that there is anything wrong with the nude body. If, if your, if your, I think saying to a child, because that person is naked, it's a bad thing. Probably, it's gonna give the kid problems later in life.

Luke: What about why is alright to show a person naked if they've been killed or beaten and dragged through the streets of some city?

Bow: Or why is it ok?

Luke: To celebrate it.

Bow: Yes, on National Geographic where you can see African woman's breast. Why is that different?

Vivian: Yeah, why is that considered Art.

Daisy: As long as, if nudity is represented as something that's debased like a woman with a dog collar being whipped with a cat of nine tails. Then of course, there's something wrong with that. But the human body in itself, if it's naked and there's a picture of it being naked. I don't see that there's anything offensive about that, if there's something offensive about that then there's something wrong with my naked body.

Luke: What if it's a man with.., being whipped by a cat's nine tails?

Bow: Exactly, Robert Mapplethorpe, same thing, same guy. That's what he had. He had homosexuals, in weird positions, one guy was pissing in another guy's mouth, but then again he was a great photographer. He did, he made great black and white pictures.

Daisy: Fair enough, but both of those guys were kind of into it. I think the point that I'm getting is that a lot of pornography, if they have a woman in a dog color, with the cat of nine tails. It's suggesting something about a women's subservience, and submissiveness to a male. And that's wrong. If you are perpetuating that ideal of a woman, then to women, in general, that is degrading. But, you know, if, if, that was from a homosexual prospective acceptable, who am I to say, I'm nora male homosexual, so I don't know what is acceptable or not. But I am a woman, so I can, I can offer my opinion from that point of view.

Bow: What about lesbians?

Daisy: Lesbians? Well, they can do whatever they want to. I'm not a lesbian.

Bow: What do you think about them?

Daisy: What do I think of them?

Bow: Yeah.

Daisy: I think that's fine.

Bow: Really?

Vivian: She thinks it's great. But what if I was talking from a very conservative mother's view point, you know, there's lots of mothers who are against, for example, prayer in schools or, you know, certain, when you go to Art class, you see these pictures and paintings of nudes and whatever. I mean, they're totally against it. I mean. (Daisy: But those pictures aren't...) They're saying how can you argue that this is Art? I don't want my children exposed to this sort of thing at this early age or...

Daisy: But I don't think their children would be exposed to homosexual pictures. They might be exposed to, what about David? I mean, look at David that's a sculpture from hundreds and hundreds of years ago and that, you know, that.., he's nude, his genitals are showing. You can't censor that, you can't censor the entire Renaissance period.

Luke: That, that sculpture always made me feel really good. Actually.

Vivian: Did you guys ever, what is that, I don't know what it is called, but there is this hall where they've made like Ten Davids all around this hall and they've chopped off his... (Daisy: His penis?) Yeah.

Bow: The hall of Justice?

Vivian, Daisy: Ha Ha...

Bow: How about the difference between the, sculpture say like, David, where that, was accepted at that time and now it's pornography. But, I think, in his exhibition, people chose and pay money to go inside, if you if you believe that is pornography, and it's offensive, don't go in, don't pay.

Daisy: Exactly.

Vivian: Right.

Daisy: Right.

Vivian: But then what about when the artist publicized, it's not something that you choose or do not choose to go in and see, but (Daisy: But I think, it'll be pretty different...) you are forced to almost absorb it. You're forced to look at it in the middle of City Hall?

Luke: You have, just as other artists have the right to display their stuff and advertise it and try to give make them, a living for themselves. People have the right to say to disagree with it and I think that's the thing, that's the thing too, about art. Sometimes it'll shock and sometimes it'll annoy, sometimes it'll inspire, sometimes it'll offend. And that's the thing, that's its purpose, that's what it is supposed to do. And people can't, it can't be stifled to suppressed, it just has to make people like, take an active part, and it's great if it has that effect on people. Because a lot of things are really just watered down these days. And Art is one of these pure, like these good things. If it is done properly and it serves the purpose it's supposed to serve. It will get people riled up about something. That's important.

Daisy: And you know, even the way that women have been perceived through Art, you know, like the Botticelli Beauties, I mean, they were quite curvy, if you know what I mean, they were big women.

Bow: Voluptuous.

Daisy: And even in some of the paintings, their breasts were deformed (Vivian: Sure) deformed and that was like, their breasts had big lumps in them and knowing what we know today, and we look back at that, those women were in like developed stages of breast cancer.

Bow: Salvador Dali had like ants and things on women's genitals you know, just like...

Daisy: Right, right, but, he was, he was definitely disturbed, yeah, I love his Art but there was still definitely something, he, actually Salvador Dali. He had several paintings where women wear severed like their parts of their body were in different, in different areas. And there's actually, a killer on the loose in Europe that's doing the exact things out of Salvador Dali's paintings at the moment. So has that inspired him? I guess the guy was just crazy anyway and a fan of Salvador Dali's. But still it was interesting.

Vivian: Well you know, I thought it kind of ironical, how everything comes back to, well it can't be resolved anyway. Why, because people have opinions Art and culture. This is everyone expressing themselves. So it can never really be resolved. Is it wrong, is it right, is it beautiful, is it not. Like, Luke was making that point earlier. So it's kind of like a matter of freedom of speech, and that can't be resolved.

Bow: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Daisy: Yes, I was just about to say the same thing. And I think that you're right, it can't be resolved, but I think that's the purpose of Art, to, you know, inspire debate, to inspire thought, to inspire.

Vivian: And there's always going to be critics who don't agree.

2册-Religion and Philosophy

2. Religion and Philosophy

SIDE A


Vivian: O.K. Here we are again, gang.
Luke: Hey!
Daisy: Hey!
Bow: What's up?
Vivian: And, and I guess we're talking today about, maybe one step further after marriage, may be religion and tie that together with so me philosophy, uh...hey, gang, let's introduce each other, Daisy?
Daisy: O.K. This is Daisy here, back at you, once again and this conversation we're having about religion and philosophy. This is a deep one, over to you, Bow?
Bow: Yes, Hi, my name is Bow, studied architecture but philosophy is very interesting to me and I used to study about religions, too.
Luke: This is Luke, urn, I don't know, I'm just really happy to be here, I hope I can glean a lot of information from, from my peers I'm always interested in finding new mentors and different ideas, I, to fill, to fill my head, you know, I'm really looking forward to it, should be fun.
Vivian: Hey, this is Vivian, I'm not that religious anymore, but I feel that there are certain things that I, seek religion for, I used to be very religious and so this should be a very insightful conversation for me.

Daisy: You know, what's quite fascinating, here in Korea, it's a common thing to ask people when you first meet them, "What is your religion?" But in my country and I know also in your countries as well, it's actually quite a personal question, right?

Vivian: Definitely, yeah, you just couldn't go up to stranger and just ask "So are you Christian? Are you, which church do you go to?" I get that a lot of myself, and I, sometimes I, I guess the reason why, this is rude is because you don't really want to expose yourself, (Sure) and your beliefs to someone, especially someone you don't know.

Luke: It's a very personal experience for everyone. I'm not offended by that question personally, but it is a very personal thing to a real stranger.

Bow: And I think, actually, in the States, if someone comes up to you and asks like "Are you a christian" or this and that, you kinda think that they're a Jesus freak.

Daisy: Right.

Bow: You know why, it's somebody that is really interested in religion and you're like, why are you asking me this, you must be really weird.

Vivian: And also, I guess, people get very sensitive to questions like that, obviously, because of our cultures, it's not acceptable for someone to just go up to someone "How old are you?, Are you married? How much do you make?, What religion are you?" And I guess religion, especially, for those who are religious, it becomes a very sensitive topic, it's a hot issue. (Daisy: Right) Ah, which I guess brings us to an obvious question? Are you religious, what religion are you?

Bow: Well, let's see, I went to a catholic school for fourteen years, my parents are Irish catholic, and my grandparents, we used to go to church but, once I got to college I didn't believe that catholicism was the, um,well, had everything that I, thought it, should have, so kind of, now I like to learn about many religions, because I think every religion has its good aspects and its bad aspects.

Vivian: Could I ask what exactly was the turning point? Why you thought that really wasn't, you were fulfilling?

Bow: Um, that's a good question, I think, maybe because, for example, in the catholic church, you're, they have like the Ten Commandments and if you break one of these commandments then you're not supposed to receive the body of Christ. Right? So, but like in my community, like I knew these guys are like cheating on their wives which was breaking that commandment, but they would go up and receive communion and just because it looked good, and other people would think that they don't sin, so it was just kinda like a social thing, more that a religious thing for them.

Vivian: Right, so it's not a serious.

Bow: Right.

Daisy: Well, I was also raised in a very.., generations in, I don't know how many generations, but it's been a long time, a very strict catholic family, and my father has never missed going to mass, one Sunday in his life, he's sixty- four years old. And urn, I also, as a child I think about the age of fourteen began to see that type of hypocrisy, in the church, especially with the parish members and the one thing that really kind of turned my stomach is, I would watch them reciting the prayers that you have to recite during the mass, and they were just doing simply that, it's was kind of like a parrot, you know, repeating everything you say, they weren't thinking about the words, they weren't thinking about what they were saying, they were just saying them and they do stuff like that on the weekend. You know bad things.

Bow: Yeah, Well, I think like, because, if they're christian or Catholic then they think that by doing this, that saves them, they're gonna go into heaven, and they're.., but the thing is for me, once I get older, I thought like, well, is the Bible really telling true stories? Is it really a heaven? When you start to learn about other religions, where the Buddhists think that you're kinda reincarnated and there's a cycle of life, and who says that the Catholics are right? The Buddhists are wrong, or Buddhists are right and Catholics are wrong, who actually knows? Nobody can really give an answer so, for these people to just do that it's like making excuse and I'll just take my chances and it seems like the best thing, so I'm just gonna go to church, you know, even though they don't really believe any of the philosophies of the church, but by doing that then,...they're saved, so to speak.

Vivian: Yeah, I agree. I think it was the hypocrisy theory for me, I totally thought it was just a all. Well, my mother is very, very religious and very, christian even till this day, and my sister and my mom do not miss one Sunday, actually they're at church five days a week almost, and I was too, until I guess I was in about junior high? And then after that I got to thinking myself, "well, church is almost, you know it's a thing that you are kinda forced to attend, and I thought I believed in the Bible and everything, but then once you get a little older, and your mind is more developed and you go to school, and you learn more things you come to realize "well, for me I want scientific proof, a base to, you know, formulate, for example, is the Bible, are the stories in the bible true? Did Jesus ...you know, come to earth and were the disciples really there? and then you have the science that says-- actually man came from this and that in ...that's I guess, what sort of, kinda of weaned me off of christianity.

Bow: Well, I have this theory, if you think about how was religion invented or thought up, like the first humans stood erect, then a... you know, once they had the capacity to think, they had a capacity, we still do now, if you talk about in the scientific aspect, we think in a linear way from a to b, we always think in time from a to b, so, the first person who had the ability to think that way, they went back and said like, "I'm a person now in this time, how did I get here, where did I come from?", and because of that, lack of brain power, then religion was invented, because ... if there's a ... if you could think in kind of like a z-access, or another dimension, maybe you could figure it out, but we can't, so religion was invented, because of that reason, so that you wouldn't go crazy thinking about where did I come from, and the ... physicist Stephen Hawking, he wrote this book "Brief History of Time" and you know, usually scientists are also, atheist, they don't believe in anything because they're always looking for facts. And this guy, he went back and mathematically calculated the big bang, the beginning of universe, but at the end of the book he says "and I believe in god" because he can't go back any further mathematically, because he only has a capacity to think from a to b in a linear sense.

Daisy: Right, but also, basic, especially the christian religions, and.., saying christian religions that can encompass anything from Jehovah's Witnesses, to the Seventh Day Adventists, catholic, protestant, whatever. If you, generally, if the concept of those religions is correct, if you are questioning, urn, if the stories in the Bible are right, or if Jesus did exist, then what you are essentially doing, is completely veering away from the essence of your religion, because if it's based on the fact of faith, which asks you to believe with no proof. So therefore if I'm to be, a part of those religions, but I have an intelligent brain and I have questions to ask, then therefore I'm not religious? Because I question my faith or I don't have faith because I question it?

Vivian: Well, my mother would skin my hide if I were to say this. And I voiced this to her and before I've gotten in really big trouble with her, and I've said this to other people, it's gotten me in sticky situations, myself, but I'm at a very happy medium. I've come to a good understanding of where I am. I'm not religious enough to believe in all the stories in the bible, and go to church, thinking that I'm gonna follow the preacher and sing these song, but I tell you what, when I go to church and when I leave church, I leave with a good feeling, I feel renewed, I feel like I wanna go out and do a good deed, but that's not because I'm religious and I believe in God. I'm not saying I don't believe in God, but I'm saying, you do whatever that makes you feel good, and if it brings you to the point where "gosh, I wanna go out, and do a good deed today, I really regret doing something, yesterday, and also the stories in the bible like I said I don't believe in them, but they give me a nice, which foundation for morals or what's not.

Daisy: Right.

Bow: Well, I think urn, in every religion, like a, some people choose this only one, you know, religion catholic or whatever, but I think within all the religions, many things are the same, they're just interpreted in different ways, so like, for example most religions have something to do with what we call in christianity, the soul. In Asia, they call the spiritual energy or GI, and where that energy, that energy goes somewhere after it leaves your body, so there's different words for it, but, they're pretty much talking about the same thing.

Luke: Yeah, basically organized religion at its best, at its purist, is a community of people who kind of believe in the same kind of idea, but it's a way of bringing people together and agreeing on how to live just lives and noble lives, and it sort of keeps people on a track, on an enlightened track, and a track of benevolence and good will.

Vivian: Shoot me for saying this but I, sometimes get to a point where I kinda think those people especially, having seen the Korean community going to church and where they're just really, really into it. They really religious ones, they sit there and cry and wail and anyway i just get to a point where I think, well they kinda rely on this church and each other and this religion for like, it's kind of like a backbone in their lives, or else they couldn't go on.

Daisy: Well, for me I have a problem with the concept of religion, basically, because of what I was saying before, because it's supposed to be based, based on faith only which, in philosophy, they say that christianity is based on the theory that God is good, and God is good because he is God, so therefore if I, totally absorbed that with faith, that theory, then I'm not given any allowance to be human and question why God is good. If I wish to, um use the brain that God has supposedly given me, then I should be able to analyze that and decide why God is good and why I should worship God. So, in that case, I thinks religion just is anti-christian, because it doesn't allow you to use your God-given talents.

Vivian: Isn't that the reason why there's so many religions that have developed over a long time, because you find some sort of discrepancy or something that you don't approve of, or can't come to terms with. So you turn to a similar religion, for example, you mentioned christianity, christianity involves so many different religions. I didn't really have a nice, understanding of it until I hit high school, but before then like I said that I followed my mom to church thinking christians are christians, but there's catholics, there's protestants, there's Presbyterians, what is the difference? Little discrepancies in the Bible.

Bow: Yeah, that's, that's what I was gonna point out, It's like how can people make this and why is this religion christianity so widespread in the world, when their backbone as you call is like ...based on the Bible which is just full of contradictions (Daisy: Sure) it's all, it's written by so many different writers and like it's, for example, "love your brother, love yourself" but then there's also, "An eye for an eye" so like, it's giving you a permission to take revenge, or like in Muslim religions, when they read the Koran, it's like, there's no consistency in it, every muslim interprets the Koran in their own way, and that's why they have like these religious wars, because somebody say, somebody, one muslim might think.., this is telling me to go blow up a building. For Allah and then they'll go and do it, you know, and it's when there's no consistency in something, it's hard to make it, you know, a foundation.

Daisy: It's interesting you brought up that point, because I was going to use the Koran as an example, too. The thing is if you don't read the Koran in Arabic, because Arabic is such a subtle language, once it's translated into any other language, it loses it's original meaning. And urn, so therefore, unless, it is read in Arabic, it will be misinterpreted, and that's why you have all those fundamentalist groups and the factions the different factions in Islam, at the moment in a, you know, all those countries. So I tend to think that probably somewhere along the track that happened with the Bible, too. It was originally written in a language that does not even exist anymore, and then, it was, you know, translated into Latin and God knows how many different languages...

Vivian: And even, us speaking, of being able to partly speak several languages -- French, Korean, English, what not, you know the difference and once you translate something, it loses a lot of the essence like, for example, comedies that come enter a country, that translated it loses all the humor, or whereas if you've heard it, in its original language you would be, you know... (Daisy: Right, right / Luke: Appreciative) exactly, and you know, I always to have to come back to the point where every topic that's brought up I have to say, I have to go back to the scientific part of it, for example, in the news they say, oh we found another tablet that says that so and so was the actual writer, he was actually, there before such and such disciple, we keep finding another tablet, and another tablet, we have to keep criticizing. I want proof, you know.

Luke: But I think humans have to ultimately, except that they are fallible and there's this human inclination to want to know everything, but I just don't think there will ever become, will ever come a time. When we can understand everything, back to the Stephen Hawking thing, there's just, there's just so much out there, that we can't comprehend, we can't get to, we can't reach, we can't fathom, and I think that's kind of what I would consider to be God, is that, that place where the universe we keep, you break down an atom and you and you keep breaking it down, keep breaking it down.,.all sudden it's the entire universe. It all, it's sort of, it goes back into itself and...

Vivian: Starts over again.

Bow: I think that the human species will evolve into something that.., they say that.., scientifically we use thirteen or fourteen percent of our, our (Vivian: Brains) brains, but I think that with evolution if you look at evolution like... we went from little things, little cells in the ocean, into, like, walking creatures and monkeys and you know, then standing erect, um, humans, homo sapiens. So if you look at like, the history of evolution, I think with, what's going on now, with like so much technology, that people aren't really using their bodies like they were before, and like if you're living in the woods, you have to use your body to survive, but now people are using computers and remote controls and everything is... like pretty soon they're gonna make voice-activated ah computers, everything's with your voice, so you're not gonna be using your body anymore. And if you are not exercising then, I think are.., the human race will kind of evolve into just brains and I think that, by that time, because of evolution that we will have a better understanding, I don't know how long it's gonna take, who can say, but I think, you know, during that time there's gonna be more and more religions and there's gonna be more, you know, people are gonna come out that are smarter, you know, like Einstein making theories and it's gonna bring us into a... somewhere weird in the future, I think that, we can't even fathom it right now.

Vivian: Right.

Daisy: I tend to disagree with that point, I think we're actually becoming stupider, because, urn, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, it's documented, especially in Asian history, the abilities, or even in the aboriginal culture it's documented that um...that natives have these abilities to communicate telepathically or they were able to even appear you know, in different places, in history books and things like that. And I think that, that was probably using your brain, and I think that, we're not using our brain, we communicate by telephone, or we do this, we do that, if we're only looking at something scientifically and not spiritually, I'm not talking about religions but also you know, also trying to develop to a point of encompassing other things that people used to use, like meditation or thought processes that we're losing an entire capability of our brains that we once had, and I think that is essential to a person's spirituality, if you don't know yourself and you know your abilities then, you are not an all- encompassing spiritual being.

Vivian: I guess I agree with both of you guys to a certain point, I do agree about the meditation coming to one with nature, you know, these days ah herbs and, you know, what is... scent candles and all this stuff is becoming really big, but that's the kind of stuff they used a long time ago in Asia and they are all the coming back to it, but at the same time the other point, with the developing rather than going the opposite way, is also true as well, recently the break-through with D. N. A. and are you know, chromosomes and all that stuff, that's gotta lead to something else, too.

Luke: But I think, when you say that, if that's your opinion then you're thinking in a micro-scale of just the earth, I mean we don't even know if there's other human, or any living beings, in other places, maybe they have religion, maybe they have something that, they could teach us or we could teach them, you just talk about the spirit and nature that's just now. You know and I think, actually, in a lot of religions too, that's what they do, they have these two scales, the macro and the micro where, the macro is they're thinking of, you know, heaven and beyond and death and life all this stuff, but then down here, they're thinking about going to church, you know, it seems very simple when you think about it that way, you know, we're just like doing this to get to here.

Daisy: But I do think that for us the only thing we're pretty much capable of controlling in our lives is the here and now, and I think, that, urn, I don't believe that we should be going to church, if obviously, like we used the example before in the catholic mass, we'd see people going there and you know, cheating on their wives on the weekend, I mean, that's just a ritual, and it's not something that is affecting them spiritually, obviously, but if, in the here and now, I can, by using my brain, using my soul, for want of a better word, to improve myself both physically, mentally, spiritually, then I'm developing as a human.

Bow: I just wanna throw this question out, you don't have to answer, if you don't want, but what are your opinions on pre-destination?

Daisy: Where we're gonna go?

Bow: Like do you believe that yeah, do you believe that we are pre-destined or could do make your own future?

Daisy: Um.

Vivian: Does that also go along with the.., um being born again and rebirth, and having past lives?

Bow: Depends on you, if that's, if that's what you think, I'm just asking what ...like asking, I'll give you my opinion right now. I believe that we are pre- destined somehow and I, like I said earlier I think I believe that because I can't figure out scientifically, so I just give in to the theory that, urn, something we are here for a reason, (Daisy: Right, right, you don't...) existentialism and all that crap, but yeah I think, that how I believe, I think we are doing something here for a purpose and in a larger scale.

Vivian: ls that on a personal basis that, you mean like the human race.

Bow: I think, me and everybody, yeah.., I'm included in the human race I hope.

Daisy: You know that movie "Sliding Doors?" you know that's my theory on what happens, I think that there is a big pattern right, and kind of like a pre- destined um, what's the word like, you know, an itinary of what, you have to do when you're alive, but sometimes you just don't know, I thought that that director's take on fate and pre-destination was quite interesting. Because she had two choices to make when she jumped on that train on the subway. And it was what would've happened either way, but she was pre-destined to meet one man, and even though she took, a really long way around, she still learnt things, so she took the other way, she took the route form a to b, she still pretty much more or less ended up in the same spot and I think that the things that are meant to happen to us whether they're good or bad, it doesn't matter what choices you make, I think your choices effect that but they will happen, where, you will end up, even if you take a detour, where you're supposed to be.

Vivian: I really enjoyed that movie myself and that is a good point, because there's a, actually if you watch, a lot of movies. I see like a majority of these movies these days, there's a pivotal point in your life, where you can make one choice or the other, there was the movie, recently, Nicolas Cage... urn... (Daisy: Um, "Family Nan") "Family Nan", even that movie is similar to that in the sense that there's a pivotal point in his life where he could make this choice or that and that led to a stream of events that lead him to be,.., lead a single life, or to have, raise the family not have earned as much money but still be happy, and you see a lot of movies that kind of bring that point about.

Daisy: Right.

Luke: Well, when you are pre-destiny, or pre-destined, does that mean you believe in free will, or that we are just fated, that everything is sort of programmed for us. That's the thing I don't like about the pre-destiny thing, is that for me the whole religious experience, is sort of a magical one, and that's the thing you see, the closest you come to God and.., is enlightened moments when you're appreciating nature or good art, or a good song. I think that's where the most intense religious experiences occur and I just think that creative impulse is part of what makes people kind of God-like and having that, having that spontaneity and the creative urge...

Bow: Yeah. I think so but I think it's beyond our capacity to think, I think that I believe that we have, our free will to make choices in the future, ... but it's pre- determined, those choices that we make, it sounds kinda warped, but that's what I think...

Vivian: Don't you think that pre-destination, that's not necessarily day to day every day of events. Maybe, he's talking about.., coming to a point in your life, you, whether you take this, path a or path b. I mean, you would probably end up, day to day events would probably be similar or different, but you reach certain points in your life, for example, you find.., a mate that you would be happy with, you find, that, you know, you raise children, you get to certain points in your life.

Daisy: What if it's this, what if it's that? we are at some point on another plane of awareness before we become, before we are born. Whether that be heaven or whether that be, you know, the Buddhist belief in reincarnation, that you chose this path, that you had something that you chose to do before you came here. Then that would be definitely, it was pre-destined for you. But I do believe that you have a choice whether we choose before we're born or whether we choose when we get here, I don't think I would have been given conscience or I would have been given a brain if I wasn't meant to make any choices.

Luke: Yeah, that's very important too, to me. I think that aspect of religion is crucial to my understanding of spirituality and religion.

Bow: Here's something that I always noticed in Catholicism. People wanna know about original sin or sinning or mortal sin and all this stuff like, if you doing any of this stuff without getting forgiveness, then you're gonna go to hell and all this stuff, but then, the question that was always asked was what happens if a baby dies before it is absolved of its original sin. Where does it go and the crappy answer that the Catholic church gives us is limbo, and limbo to them, is just, um (Daisy: Purgatory) purgatory. It means like they can't answer, so they just say limbo. It's kind of an excuse they use, and I think that's why I became interested in knowing about other religions because if you believe, um what the Buddhists believe that there is a cycle of life and that a baby has life and it has energy, then that energy is going into something whether it is the universe, or whatever turns the.., heats the sun or turns the earth or you know, goes into a plant, but it goes somewhere. It kinda answers that question you know a little bit better, so I'd like to know urn, your guys' opinion of that.

Daisy: Well, you know, that's interesting that you brought that up, I always had a problem with that, with the Catholic church as well, that, this is a sin, and we tell you what's a sin so therefore it's a sin. But unless you have an understanding or a conscience, unless you sin you don't know what is a sin. Because if you're just reading something that says ok. "This is wrong" but you have no understanding why it's wrong, therefore you can't be good. Uh, Herman Hesse said in "Narcissuss and Goldman" that the quickest way to a holy life is through a life of sin, actually I believe that, because if you sin, and you do something wrong, and you feel guilt and remorse for it, hence you are a good person, you become a good person, (Vivian: You redeem yourself) right, but if you haven't if you have no understanding of what is, what is good or bad, if you just go and do something, um and like you kill someone, but you feel no remorse for it, you haven't, you haven't sinned, you haven't sinned, because you feel no guilt, you feel no conscience about it. So sin is only, I believe you have to sin to become good.

Luke: It's a deep, a deeper understanding of what is right and what is wrong, (Daisy: Right) and it's an internalization of that.

Bow: And see, that goes along with what buddhists think, it's just another reinterpretation of like a Chinese yin and yang, urn, that's the same thing, good and bad, good and evil and black and white, the dark side of the mountain and light side of the mountain, good karma, bad karma. Every religion has a similar thing, it's all connected to me, I believe, it's just interpreted different. For example, monks, um I haven't studied it that much but I've read stories of monks, once they become enlightened, they can sin, and what sinning is considered by christians but they're still enlightened, so they're still gonna become a buddha, sooner or later.

Daisy: Well sin must be what enlightens one.., you're not born, you're not enlightened until you've sinned, you have to sin to be holy. That's what I believe.

3册-Jobs and Education

1. Jobs and Education


SIDE A

Today's subject is jobs and education...uh...this is some-thing that any of us can relate to.

Vivian: This is Viv.
Daisy: Yes. This is Daisy. Definitely. You know there's no substitute for a great education, I think and you know if you wanna get that job. But then again, you have to be educating yourself for the right reasons. But I guess we'll get into that a little bit later so, how about you, Bow?
Bow: Oh, yes...hey this is Bow. That is short for Boseesis. I have two things about the job and education...over to you Luke?
Luke: I think a job is an education and I think education is not something you do at school necessarily. I think it's something you do for whole life and you do it wherever you are whenever you are whatever you are.
Vivian: Well obviously, they are both related and we'll discuss more about it. Here we go.

Daisy: Well, you know school for me...um...back way way way back.., a long time ago, I really didn't enjoy it myself. I didn't have good school experience. How about you, Bow?

Bow: Oh! Are you talking about high school or college?

Daisy: High school.

Bow: Uh. High school.., um...Well I really didn't care much about studying... I like to um...have fun. And they say like in America, it was the best years of your life.

Daisy: Right.

Bow: Well they weren't really I suppose.

Daisy: No, me neither.

Bow: Because I fooled around so much I got kicked out.

Vivian: You got kicked out of Catholic school?

Bow: I didn't say Catholic school. How did you know that? Viv, Yes I did.

Daisy: For what?

Bow: Um...we have a demerit system and if you get up to 20 demerits they kick you out. And they kind of just let me keep going and I had 40. Twice the amount and they said we have to make an example of you, mister Bow and they kicked me out.

Vivian: So we're saying like what exactly were the reasons you've got demerits, you know, like what kind of a...you know...

Bow: Let me see... I got caught cheating.., once that was 5 demerits and then uh...I lit a fire in the pottery room and that was.., uh that was probably the end of it right there.., the fire thing.

Daisy: Did you do it on purpose?

Bow: Yes, I did. Because there was this piece of work that I didn't really like and I poured some glue in, and lit it on fire but then I tried to put it out with water but then it kind of dispersed all over the place and I got in trouble.

Daisy: So kind of you weren't planning to be that big but it just kind of got out of hand.

Bow: Yeh it escalated.

Daisy: How about you Luke? How was your school experiences?

Luke: Similar experience. It was more focused on... on social life, and recreational stuff than actual studying. I think that's what a lot of high school and elementary school is for people back home. The only time you really buckled down when you get to university just because you have to because the course load does increase. But I never really yeh I was never that freaked up by high school.., anything I applied myself a bit more in college and just goofed off got in trouble... I used to sell fire crackers in my locker and one time I taped one to a candle and I tried to blow it out and it exploded and I got suspended for a day for that, and an other time I threw a pie in the cafeteria across the room I got in trouble for that started a food fight.

Bow: I used to throw books out of the window of the library. That's kind of similar.

Luke: That's pretty bad.

Daisy: I, I used to steal books from library.

Luke: Yeh.

Vivian: Bad girl.

Luke: Terrible.

Daisy: How about you Viv?

Vivian: Me. I was a such a good girl in school. I used to look down upon all those girls who used to gather in bathrooms and smoke in the stalls I was always early to school.., and my PE teachers just loved me... they just ate me up. I swear. I can call them and I'd just open my mouth and they were like "Oh! Vivian, you're such a good student"...yeh...I kind of had it made in school I guess.

Daisy: Um, did you do well in school?

Vivian: Oh yeh. I was a straight A student.

Daisy: And did you graduate from high school valedictorian?

Vivian: No, not exactly. Last 6 months at school were so tragic for me and my mom. We just.., you know... I dropped out of school. I just couldn't take it any more being a perfect student.

Daisy: The pressure.., the pressure of being straight A student?

Vivian: I can it's just you wanna try different things and after just everything being handed to you on a silver platter.., you know you just wanna do something different.., and just one day I just decided well I didn't wanna go to school and I wanted to play hooky and it's just it was so much freedom all at once I guess.

Bow: That's kind of interesting. The difference between the Korean you were raised sort of in between a Korean educational system and American style of education. And one thing I noticed about the Korean education system is from the time you enter school maybe pre-school to the time maybe to the end of high school, this is the time where we goofed off basically applied ourselves a minimal amount of effort to get the grades and get things done. Whereas that whole time in Korea, in the Korean society, children are being pushed to study almost every minute they have. They go to school and they are pushed to study they go to academic institutes to study, they're often pushed by their parents to have.., to take piano lessons or gymnastic lessons or skating lessons or any kind of lessons. They never really have time to just be kids and goof off and play and stuff. And then when they hit university it's almost like they regress back into the childhood state of mind and if you seen university classrooms with the speaking and chatting during class leaning on each other and cheating and just goofing off and having a gay ol' time. It's just so contrasted to what an American university classroom would look like where everyone's attentive and conscientiously studying and giving their full attention to the professor.

Bow: Well, that's the thing if they're not then they've kicked out.

Luke: Exactly.

Vivian: I definitely agree. That's exactly how the difference in cultures is. My mother being Korean and my father being American. My father was more submissive in the relationships so he kind of let my mother take over the family. But that's exactly how she was and that's why I felt so much stress by the end of school was because from the minute you are in elementary school she was pushing me to do everything perfectly whereas everyone was just, all the other kids especially in elementary or junior high you're just having fun. I was pressured you know so much to get the grades and make the grade. Whereas after that then she always told me as soon as you are an adult as soon as you're eighteen you do whatever you want but until then okay it doesn't matter, no matter what as long as you graduate after that you can do whatever you want because then you're set you're made to go wherever. But in the American culture my dad was actually saying the opposite, enjoy now and then get into really good school and then you'll really study because that's what's gonna lead to a good job. Totally the opposite.

Daisy: Well, I think that everybody it doesn't matter what culture you are from. Everybody is in a different situation with their family. Some parents are just naturally pushy and they want their children to do well and some parents don't care. But the Korean education system and I think probably a lot of other education systems in Asia especially the Japanese one seems to be quite unique in the fact at that, you know Luke was saying there is so much pressure on these children from a young age. And I think that's absurd. Basically children are sponges and they can learn anything they can absorb but even if they learn it do they absorb it. I think that they're just learning a parrot like for want of a better word and they're just taking in this information remembering it using it in their practical way. And not being able to apply anything that they learned in theory and there's too much of it too too much to process. I don't think they're able to process it and even in universities I had a friend who was studying engineering and he had this assignment with an American professor was visiting and the American professor said go ahead and design one of those big cranes that you see on construction sites. And he thought, oh well, I'm a fourth year student I should know how to do that but he didn't. So he went to a construction site and asked the site manager how would you design one of them. And the site manager said who are you. And he said I'm a fourth year university student. And he laughed at him and said, "Go back to school, you do that when you get a real job." So there's no practical implication of anything they learn in school or university.

Vivian: And that brings us to a point where.., and this is a kind of something they've been focusing on recently is the difference in education, the methods of education that they practice overseas and Asia versus Europe or the western countries which is in the classroom situation the teachers encourage students to respond even argue with the student and debate and test out their ideas and theories in the classroom. Whereas in Asian cultures you don't wanna talk back to your teacher, you want to pretty much say everything you say is correct because once you argue or you were to say, well, "What about this?" Then that means in the culture you're talking back to the teacher. That's like that calls for reprimanding the child or the student.

Bow: I think, um, the reason why the education system in Asia is not good. It's not just because I grew up in different kind of education system but I think that if you look at it more in a general sense of child development during those years if you're giving a child stress. Of course that's going to affect them later on in their life whereas kids are just designed so to speak to, to be curious about and find out things by themselves and like ah... have fun as they grow up and develop. And I think like people that have a lot of stress when they are children it doesn't have to do with their education but maybe from divorce or, you know, some other kind of traumatic event in their lives does affect them later on socially. And I think that's where college and being more strict in the western world is a good remedy for that. That's because I think that's where people really kind of develop themselves.

Vivian: Right. I definitely agree. Because in the Korean culture or in many other Asian cultures as well after so much you know ten years of strict educational.., you know.., pressures from the parents and teachers in school you all of sudden have freedom once you go to college here in Korea. Whereas in a western culture, you're given all this freedom at a younger age to explore your ideas, go out and do things experiment with your friends and whatnot... but then in the college it's not because of the pressures you get from your parents but then you kind of mentally develop yourself and.., you want to... you have to live on your own, you have to go to school, you know, you're responsible for many things away from your parents, and so you just kind of naturally hone in on your, you know, you become an adult. You're more mature whereas here you.., you break free all of a sudden and you actually getting really immature.

Luke: I think that comes down to you're taught in the western society to think for yourself. You're taught to be independent a little bit more. You're given.., there's a little more you have more control over your free time but you are made to understand the consequences if you don't use some of that free time to study or to do these things.

Bow: Yes, exactly.

Luke: You value your free time more because of that.

Bow: And I'll give you an example of that exactly you do get a sense of freedom from your parents when you go to school in America but this is exactly right. What happened to me was that in freshman year they load you down like seven courses in architecture right? So you have a really tight schedule but the first year of college you're away from your parents so you can get away with murder. So that's what we do we drink every night on weekdays and then we like skip classes and stuff and then all of sudden you get a notice from the dean that says you're grade point average is below two. You know and if it continues this way you're gonna get kicked out so then we say to ourselves well we kind of want this freedom to continue if we get kicked out. We're gonna have to move back in with our parents. So then we kind of buckle down a little bit but as you go through college more and more you start to actually learn things that you like...like you're learning things that are interesting and when you're in elementary school and in high school learning about like Math and stuff and they are just force feeding you this stuff you don't naturally wanna learn it.

Vivian: Ye! You have curriculum that you have to take.

Daisy: Um... one of the interesting things is you know I grew up in Australia. The Australian education system is different again from the American system.

Bow: What is it actually?

Daisy: The Australian education system? (Bow: I don't know) ...well in America your focus is basically still on the three R's right? reading, writing, and arithmetic. Well it's a little bit different in Australia up until grade eleven you can...uh...you must study Math and English. The only compulsory subject when you graduate is English you don't have to do Math. And you the, choices that you have to pick you can basically design your own syllabus in high school, um, which I think is fantastic idea. And there are subjects ranging from art to metal working, wood working, photography, um music, dance, sports. It's, uh, there are so many different curriculum to choose from that anyone can basically succeed and get enough points to get into university if they want to.

Bow: But you have, have a core group of courses that you have to take too I mean you have electives a certain number of core courses that are mandatory...

Daisy: Right, but in the core groups you have English you don't ... math is not.., you know a prequisite for college unless you got you need it for the course you're gonna study in college. But the core groups would be the sciences, history and English as compulsory, that's the only one that is compulsory. But in those core groups there are several different things to study, the sciences they can range from anything from biology. I think there's natural sciences which is just a study of basically the environment and current events and things like that. But I think that is good idea, and the reason being because all children and all people are not designed for the three R's if you're just raising students and I think it definitely has things to do with economic groups, too. Children that grew up in...in privileged families have been learning to read and write even before they got into kindergarten but some kid from the ghetto is already ten paces behind a privileged child. But, he might be an extremely talented photographer or artist. I think that we need to gear our curriculum in schools around that to um, be targeted all children not one group of children. And that way everybody has an opportunity to succeed.

Vivian: Well I agree. I guess it depends upon which school that you're going to but when I went to school in Georgia it was a very restricted curriculum that we all had to attend. But then I changed to international school and it was similar to the system that you're describing now. Whereas we had to take everything which is one elective um...when I went to the international school they had a curriculum very much similar to what you have just described. You had to take certain, you had to take certain classes but they had 6-7 different what do you say? Venuses of that for example science like you mentioned you can study natural sciences, or you can study biology and whatnot. In the other schools take each one as you went up one grade but here you get to choose which one you want to study and you can choose and study it until you graduate. And the remainder of your classes...similar.., the same thing even history you could study just contemporary or current history or you know about...

Daisy: Well my major was English Literature and obviously for English Literature you don't need math. And I did very well in school and but if I had have taken math when I graduated from school. I wouldn't have got into the university that I did get into. And I also wouldn't have got the grades and that one grade in my final what is equivalent of the SATs ain the states that one grade for math would have brought me down probably an average maybe about 15 marks...

Vivian: Right. Eventually it brings down your grade point average because it's not what you are, you know talented in... honed on in.

Bow: Yeh but I think in other aspects of life you need math. People use even though like people in my university were always like I hate calculus why the hell.., why am I taking calculus. I'm never gonna use it again but it turns out.., they've proven that people use calculus everyday just not in the form of in numbers and stuff like that.

Daisy: But I took it for in eleven years, you know, it was just last year that I graduated so it wouldn't affect my grade to get into university I didn't take it. So I already had eleven years of training in it, So I think that's fair enough.

Luke: It teaches... I think it teaches students to be well rounded because that's the reality of the work force. If you're going to like if you think of the people you knew who went to college or studied something in high school with this thing in mind like I studied anthropology. I did not become an anthropologist. I didn't end up digging for bones or anything. Bow studied architecture but he didn't go on to study architecture. But the thing is we found work in different things, the thing is you the thing you study is not always the thing you end up doing.

Daisy: Sure.

Luke: But it might if you have variety of things you're learning, and you're learning how to manage your time and learning about different interests you have and stuff and if you'd just to be versatile then you have a dynamic education and then you sort of go in what ever directions you're able to take things that are offered to you.

Bow: But you say that you don't apply, you don't actually apply like the skills that you learn if you don't work as like. For example I don't work as architect but I do apply the education that I received from there like I do go to other countries and notice things architecturally that stimulate my intellect because I had the chance to learn that. I think that just because I'm not making money from what I studied. I think that's not really a big issue.

Daisy: No, I don't think it's an issue at all. And I think that is probably the main problem I have in all countries with um, tertiary education. When you go to college um... when I remember I took a class in college and the teacher asked why are you in this class. And every student answered well, I'm taking, you know, taking business, this is like part of the general requirements so I have to take it. Yeah, I wanna six figure salary or whatever and my answer was well I took it to get an education and there was another girl who had similar answer. And he said the only two who answered correctly were me and the other girl. The reason being is that education was never really put in place for you to get six figure salary. It was there to, you know, to improve or stimulate the higher faculties to make you an intelligent person to have an understanding of life and give you life experience, too.

Bow: Exactly, the point that I like to... an example that I'd like to make is at MIT they don't have the grading system like A, B, C or D or F, it's P or F, it's pass or fail. Which I think is good because it's getting you to it's gearing you toward real life, because in real life that's what it is. It's either you succeed or you don't. And it's not you kinda do you get a C you pass to the next level.., so I think actually I think all higher learning institutions should have that kind of grading system.

Luke: But if there, if they're only there to get you real job. I mean if we're saying that the reason to, to educate, educate yourself.., is to... is to get a broader understanding of the world around you and to teach you to be a better person. Then I think you should just learn like you're probably working through school anyway. You're gonna learn that if you don't cut the mustard you're not going have the job. But the shcooling thing I think, Yah, ok you weren't so strong in this.., you were strong in this.., you apply yourself it's gotta be motivated more by a personal conviction to learn that stuff. If you want to go just to get a job then you should probably just get a skill or something get a trade or something like that.

Daisy: Vocational school.

Luke: Yeh...exactly. But there's nothing wrong with that either. I mean it's useless. Yeh...

Bow: MIT is a high level vocational school.

Vivian: Sure I agree, that kind of education almost requires something like that but then when you're just about to enter um...college and you're a junior or senior don't you think that it kind of requires and I would want this for my own children, yeah, a grade, why? because you want the competition you want the competitiveness you want your child to feel like I want to beat this person next to me. I want to do better I wanna get one on top of him.

Vivian: I don't know...you know...

Luke: Maybe in business school.

Daisy: Sure I mean two different minds about that. I think that natural.,, a little bit of natural competitiveness is good but in high school um...I was the youngest of six children and my older.., older 5 brothers and sisters were incredibly successful. So even though my parents weren't pushing me I felt constantly that I had to achieve and I became like not, I'm not even just talking about grades here but an overachiever I had to do everything. I had to enter every competition. I had to come out and I had to be the school president because my sister was and my brother was. And I felt this competition all the time and eventually it worked against me. I was in Australia we call it "the tall puppy syndrome" and if you get too big they'll cut you down. And...um...I lost a lot of friends because people thought that I was a big head and because I always had to enter everything and I was doing it for some other reason to satisfy my family but in those situations I think competition can work against you.

Vivian: But many kids...students want to do it themselves because they want to. They want...I did it because I wanted to, I wanted to be on top of my class.

Bow: But there's the difference between competing with your class mates... to see if you can out do them and sort of pushing yourself and competing with yourself and seeing if you can push can strive to do these things. I think that's the big problem with the work force these days and with the education system is also that idea of competition instead of cooperation shouldn't be people be learning how to work with each other in productive ways instead of trying to outdo each other. That's... that's.., unproductive.

Vivian: But then society has changed the educational system so that you do have to compete with other kids. Why? Because there's hundred colleges out there and they're all ranked from one to one hundred and sure they're all good and as long as you get an education. Hey good to go, and you're always gonna get a job. But the fact of the matter is society um...makes this.., you know unseen kind of scale where they say what you went to your community college. I don't know I'd rather pick this dude from MIT or Harvard because he went to a yo0 know 5 star school. So, even though you may be smarter and you may have more qualifications, I'd rather pick this student from bigger named school.

Luke: You know where, you know where actually the paradox in that is that especially in America. People they are striving to get like um high salaries and whatnot and people that get into the better schools tend to get higher salaries. But what they consider to be successful is making a lot of money. And people who have.., the most millionaires in America are high school drop outs or haven't even entered high school. It was because they learned probably social skills early on. You know and they had to survive I guess somehow and I mean they're exceptional kids.

Vivian: You know the big point is... (Bow: Right. We dropped out from Harvard.) you know the big point that I always like to make is. I kind of see like two it's mainly divided into two different groups.., and it's making both point exactly but when you look at people in general. There is two different types of people. There's academically smart people and then there's people that are I guess you would put it (Daisy: common sense) right, "street wise" or whatnot but these people they are smart.., they've got what it takes but they may not further their education as far as they want to. And then there's ones in the middle that go ahead and take it to next level and they may achieve most probably. But the people that are book smart and academically successful may not it get as far as people that aren't even educated at all.

Daisy: Well, you know, I look it I think that generally schools and society is just too competitive. And parents are pushing their kids exactly what you were saying you've got into this top school because it's number one and you're not gonna have your own law practice, you're not gonna be made an associate, you're not gonna be a neurosurgeon if you don't get into this school.., and the thing is there's an enormous amount of pressure on these children. I think that it's too much to take for most kids at that age and the other thing is maybe some of them are not that smart and they can't take the medical degree or law degree. (Vivian: they're not cut out for it) Yeah, we have to realize there's nothing wrong with some guy who did fairly well in school but he pushed himself to be the best he could be but he ended up being... I don't know in the army or ended up running a video shop. But he's doing well and he's making a bit of money he's doing what he enjoys. We put too much thing on this, you know, you've got to make this much money, you've got to have this status in society.

Vivian: There are people that are satisfied in the sector that they're in and earning the amount that they are earning and living the life that they are they are maybe people that are raised from, you know, filthy rich families that may be happy just, you know, working in an art studio creating their own, you know, pieces of art. Whereas someone from the streets wants a high education and wants to come out of the best schools so that they can you know do the best they can.

Bow: People respond to different ways of learning too, some people learn from experience thing from a hands on thing, some people learn from visual things, some people learn from listening to things, some people learn from reading.

Vivian: But the little kids' point was father mother why can't you accept the fact that I am trying my best and I'm gonna try to (Daisy: And this is my best) right, and continue trying my best but this is probably, you know, it's not saying hey you're dumb or anything...but this is just as far as he goes and maybe it's time to look elsewhere or just be satisfied with what he is doing.

Daisy: This is what I can do for you and I think that's the problem his parents and society is just putting way too much pressure on people. Even my father you know I my entire high school even from elementary school I took music classes and I want to be a musician. And I even had an invitation for an audition at the Conservatorium of music which is like a once in a lifetime of opportunity. It doesn't happen to a lot of people but my father said "No way, you're going to university you're gonna study economics" and I ended up doing that because I felt pressured by him stayed there for a year and a half and bombed out completely and it took me five years to go back to university and do what I was interested in which happened to be English Literature. But I was pressured into doing that and I failed because I was not happy. And I think inevitably all of these children are going to fail or grow up with incredible complexes that their parents have given them. They're not going to be healthy.

3册-Euthanasia

2. Euthanasia


SIDE A


Hey guys how are you doing?
Hey~~
What's up gang? Oh! How are you?
Righteous! Righteous! Good to see you, man!

Deb: What's been going on?

Bow: Oh! check it out, man. In the newspaper today did you hear? The Netherlands just legalized euthanasia.

Daisy: Really?

Cathy: Really?

Bow: Yeah!

Luke: Euthanasia? What's that?

Bow: So like you know, if you're sick, and you're, you're gonna die and you have some chronic illness that there is no cure for and you're basically just gonna deteriorate, deteriorate and deteriorate, basically if you're a citizen of The Netherlands you can ask a doctor to pull the plug sort of... he will actually let you die or speed the process up.

Bow: Oh, In Netherlands, you can also marry your gay partner.

Luke: Yeah! Yeah! They're very progressive there.

Deb: They are very, they're so liberal.

Luke: Yeah~ you can't kill people there without, unless they want to be killed.

Deb: So it's a wanting to die. (Luke: I think so) you have to want to die for them to actually let you or speed up the process, allow you to die.

Luke: I think so. Yeah. I don't know if, I don't know if it allows for, like if you don't if you are a vegetable or something (Deb: Yeah) say in a coma or something...) I don't think it allows for that, I think you have to be in your own mind.., it has to be totally like.., you have to be (Deb: Coherent...) yeah coherent you have to be lucid and everything to make the decision for yourself.

Deb: Oh~ I see.

Bow: How about you Deb, what if you are in a coma would you want someone to pull the plug on you?

Deb: If I was in a coma? Um, I guess if I was in a coma for a really long time.., but wait, if you are in a coma that doesn't necessarily mean that you're.

Luke: Doesn't mean that you're dead. You could come out of it.

Deb: Right.

Bow: Yeah! But what if you would come out but you got brain damage would you want the plug be pulled?

Deb: Uh... maybe. Because I think then I'd probably be a big burden of my family. So yeah, I think it would be very expensive and very hard on them. And you know there's nothing I can do to help the situation except if they were to pull the plug then I'm gone. It's...

Bow: What about in a hypothetical situation where there wouldn't be a burden a rich family maybe that could support somebody, you think and there is no way that they would come out of a coma and if they did they'd be a vegetable. Do you think that uh...they have the right to pull the plug?

Deb: I still think it's really it's just so emotional for a family to have that over their heads all the time, and they're constantly.., like I mean, I think it probably affects your life so much that they can' t move cities and things without considering it. It's such a big consideration if you have a family member that's in a coma that you're constantly caring for. And it's not even about the money more about the emotional um...the emotional taxation of it.

Cathy: So you if were to pull the plug on somebody like this they would die right away.

Deb: Yeah~

Luke: Pretty much...

Deb: What do you think if you're really sick, and it was a terminal illness, and you weren't going to be get better, then...you...it starts to hurt like that the illness progresses so much that you're in so much pain, you might live for another six months but it's gonna be a painful six months. Would you want to die sooner rather than pull...go through the whole 6 months of pain?

Cathy: I think it's difficult to say how you'd actually feel in the situation.

Luke: Um, say you've made your...

Deb: How about you can take control of the situation? (Luke: Yeah!)and say I'm ready to go.

Luke: Yeah. If you have made your peace, I mean if you've been through this if this is something you've maybe heard about a couple of years ago or something, your time is limited now on this mortal coil, and you're gonna be going out eventually sooner or later no one can say. And then probably from that point on you, you're gonna start coming to terms with you your spirituality or you know whatever your life is the sum of all your experiences or whatever.

Deb: And as you start to sort of maybe come to terms with that, that's gradually like giving you some peace of mind then like...uh...they're pendulum. There's all the pain it's coming. It's gonna be a more and more painful that. What would you do then? Bow?

Bow: If I was in the situation, I would um...have um...somebody who was responsible for pulling the plug maybe look into cryogenics? (Deb: What's cryogenics?) it is like freezing... (Deb: Oh...then you could be brought back to life...later when they figured it all out...)

Luke: Cure.

Bow: Maybe something like that...um...that's true. yeah. if you have unlimited funds now. But if you have limited funds then taxidermy, would it be ok?

Deb: So that your mom could put you on a shelf?

Bow: Well I mean think about euthanasia is, it's a big deal with humans but it happens all the time with animals, my dog was euthanized (Cathy: See? That's the thing) and many dogs are. I mean that's a life.

Deb: I thought better knowing that our dog wasn't in pain when that happened with our dog, that gives us a hard decision to make. (Bow: Yeah~)but at the same time like the poor thing was suffering so much, it was in a lot of pain that it was...and that was even hard for us to watch. So imagine if it's human, say it's your brother.

Cathy: That's an interesting point. It's like you're not just living this life by yourself. You're not just totally an individual you're connected to everybody else, so I think that decision would have to be based on all of the people that love you and, by you as well.

Luke: It wouldn't be an easy decision either but I think in order to define like I guess for the family who had to sit by and.., either allow the person to let themselves die or to make the decision for them. It's not really killing it's not really murder at that point because it's not only life that is ending. I mean I think that if you're bedridden and you're totally you've lost all control over (Deb: All your functions) all your functions that's not really living anymore, it's sort of an in-between state anyways (Deb: Right) So I don't think I don't know I think it's a good thing it's a progressive thought, but an important one.

Cathy: Yeah. I remember I was talking to one of my students who had a father who was dying and he was telling me how difficult it was to see him going down further and further and further, and for the entire family really so maybe something like euthanasia would...

Deb: Would be something that they could grasp and could actually give them a lot of peace of mind for the whole family (Luke: Right)

Bow: How about this thought like um doctor Kervorkian he is in court still now and um...(Cathy: So controversial.) and um the thing that's interesting to me is that people give him permission to kill them. Then he injects them with certain medicines I suppose and.., then.., they die. But urn, these people if they really wanted to die I mean maybe they chose him because it's urn... it seems medical to them or I mean maybe jumping off a building or cutting their wrists is just too gory and but I mean I'm sure that they can find other ways that wouldn't be painful, they could take some sleeping pills if they really want to (Luke: Sure) but I think why they choose him is because they want someone else to have responsibility for... And so them saying like I have problems I did it to myself. They want someone to say like this guy feels the same way, you know like, he's responsible for...(Luke: An advocate kind of) exactly.

Deb: I saw a movie once. And it was based on a true story it was about this really old retired couple. And I believe the wife had Alzheimers and she was really, really, really sick and deteriorating. And she couldn't even get off the couch like she was that sick, and so her husband actually took it upon himself to kill her. (Daisy: Really?) Yeah. He shot her twice.

Luke: Oh. I heard about that.

Deb: Yeah. Then he was on trial but he was claim that it was a mercy killing and he loved his wife all like for 50 years or whatever that they were married he loved her. He did it because he cared for her not because he wanted to get rid of her. But because of the pain that he saw her in ... He wanted to alleviate that. She couldn't actually say to herself she wanted to be killed... He made that decision for her.

Cathy: But maybe they knew each other.

Deb: But the people that knew him. Exactly people that knew him and knew their marriage understood him, that you know he wouldn't have just murdered her. It was out of love it was because he cared for her that's why it was a mercy killing.

Cathy: So what did the courts decide...

Deb: I don't remember that.

Luke: Probably he probably got in trouble for that. I mean, it's...it's really brutal. I think it's almost kind of fascist how the government takes such an interest. It is really like sort of ultimately I think something like that should be the individual's right. You've gained a lifetime of making your own decisions on so many things and then like some bureaucrats are telling you, you can't, you can't end your life even though like you're the one who has to suffer through it, you are the one who has to put up with all the waiting around.

Bow: What was interesting like in the States anyway suicide is illegal. It's against the law to kill yourself.

Luke: Yeah right.

Bow: So...that's just like a contradiction almost because...

Cathy: What are they gonna do once you're dead?

Bow: Arrest your corpse.

Deb: Uh. there's also another story I know about that in Saskatchewan, a father murdered his thirteen or fourteen year old daughter. She was severely retarded and he shot her. I believe ...I'd not sure if he shot her. Actually... he might have.., but anyways he did kill her. and he totally owns up to that, but he said you know she was in so much pain and it was too much. He was very, very poor so he couldn't even put her in the proper facile.., like give the proper facilities to even make herself comfortable any more. (Cathy: Right) So and again like that I mean, I think he's still in court for that.

Bow: And that's that would be like a social problem, wouldn't it? He couldn't... he wasn't able to.

Luke: Yeah that's a little dodger.

Deb: Yeah that's the thing like. I mean it's still arguable. I mean she was in pain. Yeah I guess it is more, i see what you're saying but...

Luke: She was in pain ...being retarded is painful?

Deb: Well I think there might have other things going on as well, but like I mean so if you did just sort of like carte blanche say, ok euthanasia is ok. Who knows where that's gonna go?

Cathy: Yeah. That's. I think that's why the government gets involved so much because you could end up killing somebody and it could actually be a murder.

Deb: Exactly people are always claiming they're insane when they do things now because insanity leads to like three-year prison terms as opposed to life prison terms. So you know if people could suddenly claim like, Oh no! I euthanized that person then that gives a whole new avenue.

Bow: It's a good point.

Luke: And that leads to other things too.., like someone has is just gonna have a hard time of life because they're not as equipped in some like some respect she's not smart enough, she has a learning disorder he's got a bum leg or something. He's not gonna have a fighting chance so I euthanized them. Sort of reeks of, master race, some kind of weird filtering process...

Bow: This was just in the paper the other day.., a situation where a father in England killed his daughter because of her mental anguish. So it's kind of along the same lines. She was obsessed with Manic Street Preachers or something, some guy who in the band had committed suicide or something so she numerous times tried to do that and...

Luke: Commit suicide.

Bow: Commit suicide and she was just um hurt emotionally (Cathy: Tormented) tormented and her father um helped her commit suicide, he put a plastic bag over her head and then put a pillow over that.

Deb: Oh God! That is weird.

Cathy: Then nothing was wrong with her I think she was obsessed with.

Bow: And the father called it a mercy killing.

Luke: How old was she?

Bow: Uh...she was about maybe 24 or 25. I don't remember exactly. It was in the paper the other day.

Deb: My mom works in a hospice in Calgary and she's against euthanasia. And like.., completely against euthanasia because she believes that you can keep people comfortable and just give them a lot of love and support and you can make them comfortable and just help them get through that time. It can be painful but you know...

Cathy: Is a hospice is a place people go when they're terminally ill?

Deb: Yeah. It's for terminally ill people.

Bow: By the way what's carte blanche? So has anybody ever heard the stories of like people coming out of comas and what they've experienced because I have never.., like it was it peaceful for them or they were in a dream state or did they see the light.

Deb: Lots of times you hear that they can actually hear. (Luke: Mm...) but maybe not everything all the time. But some things they hear. Which is kind of interesting.

Bow: Yeah. Do they have feelings like.., the fetus.., does the fetus have feelings at a certain stage.

Luke: I think in situations like that where other people are deciding for the people I don't know I think it does have to be the families decision and you know they're the ones paying the money for it they're the people who know it. If the doctors can guarantee the person's not gonna come out or if they do come out they're just gonna be...

Deb: But I think pulling the plug is different from euthanasia.

Luke: Definitely. Yeah. If a person is trying to make an educated decision about it and an enlightened decision and has made their peace with everybody and with their decision I think that's almost just a release in a way like ok I'm ready to do this I mean if you've been in pain for this long you had much time to come to grips with...

Deb: And you're ready to go.

Luke: Yeah. The concept of death is not like a scary idea anymore and... you're welcoming it, it's scarier to...have to. I can imagine having to spend 5 years in a hospital bed or something never getting out and just being like waking up in pain everyday. That would suck... I think you would come to that decision pretty quickly actually.

Deb: Especially when you know it's deteriorating and you're deteriorating you know it's going to come, death is coming like... (Luke: Sure.) And I think most people when they come to the point where they can actually make a decision about euthanasia, it's when they're that close to death anyways, their probably just a matter of months away from death. That it is not a question anymore of will they get better and...yeah.

Luke: There's a thing of death with dignity as your last kind of act as a living person I guess would be dying and I guess if you could control sort of the way that you go out. I think that's sort of would be a very comforting thought too. I mean, if you are just going be like, going out screaming and puking and just making blood everywhere or something, a really gory scene and just not at all like in control of anything that's going on and all of sudden you're just snuffed out that's sort of like a crappy way to be remembered. That's not the way you wanna go out of the world.

Bow: You'd totally be remembered for that.

Luke: You'd be remembered for it.

Deb: But if you even went through all of that and then you're just sort of in a coma or whatever until you die like say you do go through all these like spastic things or whatever and suddenly like ok, you're coherent and suddenly you've got so much pain and you can't even talk anymore, so you're not going to be able to make anymore peace at that point. You're not gonna be able to say like I'm ready to go, like now you're just sort of like hanging on because they're making you hang on (Luke: Yeah) until your body gives up. (Luke: Yeah) You know my mind's ready to go and I wanna go.

Luke: In a dignified way (Deb: Yeah) Just sort of like close my eyes and ah--

Cathy: See part of me believes like um that maybe there is a God and maybe that my life was planned and I am here for a reason and I was brought into (Deb: A specific amount of time) right, I was brought into this world to experience all of the things that I'm going to experience and death being part of it. and in that sense I would say that if I'm going to argue that completely I would say that euthanasia is wrong, because it is my plan, the plan that was ordained for myself. But again I'm sitting in a comfortable position I'm not terminally ill, I'm not going through pain so it's easy for me to say that and I don't have a family member like that.

Deb: But also like... I'm sorry. (Bow: Oh, go ahead.) No I was just gonna say ok even if you do believe in God, God also gave you like the faculties to think of these things and to come to these decisions and these thoughts come from somewhere. And you know like if you do start to go down the avenue of like you know what, I think at this point I'm ready to die, I don't want to go down this road of just like deteriorating and deteriorating. And so somebody gave me these, if God created you. He also created you with the mental capability to come up with these ideas and make these decisions so, I think that that's even an arguable point like maybe he wants me to make this decision for myself and that's my lesson that I need to learn.

Cathy: Yeah, that's quite possible.

Bow: I would say a similar thing which is that you're talking about being pre- ordained or destiny and what not ... I mean.., what if our destiny was to be euthanaized, what if that was part of the plan? I mean you can never tell really until (Cathy: You can't.)

Luke: Which is a good decision and which is not yeah...

Bow: Or if you're supposed to live out your life naturally, does that happen or is the plug pulled, from...under...uh...when you're in coma y'know maybe talking about predestined plans I believe in predestined plans, but I think there's no way to know what that would ever be until maybe we get the answers when we die I don't know. (Cathy: Right) We just have to wait and see.

Luke: And all the choices leading up to that one choice too. If it's not your decision then were all the previous decisions and things you'd done previous to it, would those have been negated too.would those have been faded too, were you in control of those parts. So why not be in control right up to the end (Deb: Yeah...) and make the final, the greatest, you know, not the greatest decision.

Deb: And possibly the most important you know, or like a certainly significant one (Luke: Yeah.) you know.

Luke: That sort of like the period. The final punctuation on a long story or something, the final sentence kind of thing -- how does it end? You know.

Cathy: I'm definitely for individual freedom, and um... individual cases like I don't think you can say ok, yes, euthanasia is ok. (Deb: Right) all the time, a 100 %. But it's like I believe that every single case you should be looked at differently, like only you and your family and those around you know your life and if it's appropriate for you.

Luke: A choice should made available to people though.

Bow: You think by by... the Netherlands's legalizing it and saying people do have the choice to do it. That's ok, they're saying, the government is taking their hands off that side of things. And if people want yeah.., people from there, that doesn't mean that if you're sick you're gonna die you gonna die, we're gonna figure it out for you.

Deb: I'm sure that there's a lot of hoops that you have to go through to actually to get to the point where you are even looked at to be like for consideration of like ok now you can be euthanized if you want. You probably have to go through so many hoops.

Luke: It's very very strict right, like procedures you got to go through yeah like.

Bow: We're talking about earlier the financial aspect of it. Now again hypothetically what if there were funds made available to keep people alive.

Deb: Like just like a kitty.

Bow: I mean no...yeah like just dogs and cats too but people. For example people ...

Deb: No, no, no. Like a kitty, like a pot of money (Bow: Oh...ok) whatever that's called.

Bow: A piggy bank? O.K. Carte blanche? But um no, ok, let's just say like you know it was just free just um there's extra taxes to have people like to keep them alive until maybe there's a chance to find a cure or freeze them and put more money into that. So then would you all agree that just in cases of where people are in extreme pain, that they should be euthanized?

Luke: Yeah I don't think anybody should be able to do it. Well actually I kinda do...I think no one should be able to say whether or not you can make this decision over your own life, that's your life. (Cathy: No...) How can the government take it upon themselves to say no we think you should be you should be hooked up to a life-support system for next five years.

Bow: But I mean the people that are in comas, that can't make their own decisions.

Luke: Yeah... that's.., more or like the mercy killing kind of thing.

Cathy: I believe that laws should exist in order to like, so people can be happy and not like...something should not be legal if it's going to hurt somebody else or themselves right. Following that line, if you are terminally ill and you're suffering a great deal of pain and your family's suffering a great deal of pain it should be ok for you to end your life. Now whether or not you believe in God or all these other things they might also come into play when you're personally making that decision. (Deb: Exactly) But the government shouldn't say this is not allowed. I don't believe in that I believe, the least regulations as possible.

Luke: Yeah... there should be a window where by people can empower themselves at that stage of the game I think. But of course you need also it also I think really freaks people out about it. I don't think a lot of people have a problem with the main idea of people in that situation having the right to end their own lives. But I think worrying about opening the door a little bit more, you sort of let that go through oh ok then.

Deb: And then what.., and then what how much more.

Luke: Yeah it sort of progresses and progresses.., and then anybody who wants like ah I got a stomachache someone kill me like. But I guess that's where the real issue sort of comes down to is the whole love issue and people around you and how they would react to that whole thing too. I mean of course people aren't gonna be happy with it if someone close to you is on the verge of dying. In most situations I think people would really have a problem with that.

Bow: What?

Luke: With...with...someone making the decision to kill themselves or making the decision for them.

Bow: What if they had a big life insurance policy, they might be happy.

Luke: Well... see there yeah and there's.., people kill each other for worse reasons. Yeah...people who are doing really fine, they kill each other too, but that's the thing when you...when you make it sort of open like that it sort of...

Deb: Gives people all the more reason (Luke: Yeah) people find all the more reason (Luke: Yeah) to be able to.

Luke: People find an angle to euthanize somebody. I wanna euthanize this guy over here.

Deb: He's annoying me.

Luke: Euthanize your ass.

Cathy: I was reading about Buddhism the other day, and I heard this theory actually one of my students told me this theory, about Buddhism that um your children are people whom in your past life have really helped you and now in this life you must help them. And your husband or your wife or somebody that you really hated now in this life you must learn to love them. (Deb: Ah~) Yes, interesting, and if it's true for example, let's say that your child is very, very ill and maybe they're gonna go through an extended period of time of suffering, and as a parent it is maybe your job in this life to learn the lessons that you must learn to take care of that sick person. So in that case euthanasia might not be an option.

Bow: Um, so if you hate your wife in this life, then the next life you love her. Right?

Cathy: Hopefully. Then you've accomplished that lesson.

Luke: You can't euthanize her.

Bow: Damn!

Luke: Not an option!

Bow: Damn!!

Luke: What about with parents, I think that the large...the larger segment of people who are up for this idea are the old folks you know and um...I mean if you look at the Confucian society like Korea we were talking about it earlier, the idea of differing to older people and ...showing respect to older people that doesn't really fit in to the whole idea of euthanizing and killing off old people, just because they're not gonna be productive to themselves and to the society anymore, is that...

Deb: Goes against everything (Luke: Yeah) that they really believe.

Luke: Almost like yeah the opposite of the Confucian kind of ideal.

Cathy: Well that kind of thing has been happening in societies for ages like if you look at like anthropology for example you can see you know in these forging societies you know if a member is no longer to add to the society it's expected that they're going to be left behind. And left to die. And that's considered...

Deb: Is it ok is it because they're sick that they can't contribute anymore to their community or is it they just don't...they're lazy.

Cathy: It could be that they are sick.

Deb: Whatever, they just put them up to...

Bow: Oh no. I think uma lot of...um... Asian societies as well as other societies, were based urn.., they were farmers and everything was based around the farm so that's why traditionally they prefer sons because they can work on the farm and be more productive. So yeah it make sense that um...when someone becomes non-productive they would.., in a traditional sense euthanize them. And I've heard stories in Korea where they have those urn.., they used to take those A-framed backpacks that they used to carry wood on and they put the grandfather on and they bring him and just leave him in the woods. (Deb: Wow) Yeah, I mean what a way to go, just been left alone to nature.

Cathy: Yeah that was considered the way to go, and you know, your final sort of gift to the society while are you gonna keep pulling and pulling if you have no more nothing to give.(Deb: To offer)

Luke: We can counter that argument and say that we are not hunter, gatherer tribes anymore. We have technology everywhere, we have these machines, millions of dollars and years of research...

Deb: You don't discard people because they can't physically contribute or whatever even if they can't mentally, like if they just can't contribute at all that doesn't mean that they're just like (Cathy: Maybe they have knowledge as well that could be contributed.)

Bow: That's kind of... how...um.., that's how tradition works though. Even though in modern day society where you have a homogeneous society like Korea um... old traditions die hard you know. Some of the old traditions are still very.., pervasive and (Deb: Very evident) yes in Korea the um...the whole thing about marriage and um...having a son is still here even in this modern day society.

Deb: So ok. But they aren't putting their ancestors out to pasture anymore sort of thing, you know I don't think they're still doing that so... they've come y'know they've moved, they progressed in some ways, and they're not doing that anymore so then.., do you think that they might be they might lean toward euthanasia then?

Bow: Um...maybe... I think in traditional days. It depended on class, the class system, so the more money you had, the more affluent you were, the better mound you got with a better grave site and people take care of it, whereas the poorer people would, probably who worked on the farm that's all they had, that was their life, you know take their grandparents out to the woods and leave them. If that was my situation, if my family was um...of course you know, they loved me, but they were poor, and I had say for example a life insurance policy, I would want them to take me out. Yeah I mean that would benefit like if say there's kids involved that would...they could live off of that and you know go into ... (Deb: Right, rather than it all being spent.) on... yeah, me who nobody knows what's gonna happen.

Deb: Or they do know that you will die, y'know, they know that's coming. What's the point putting money into? (Bow: Exactly)

Luke: The idea of also having a fund for making lives last longer I think it's sort of where it's needed. I mean there's so many other things people who need to get started on a life and they're gonna have a sub-standard life from day one. Those maybe are lives that we could improve on, if you look at in more of a holistic sense of course you always have stronger loyalties to your family and your loved ones, the people who are close to you and so if you had the money you're gonna put it towards them and their quality of life (Deb: But maybe we need to look more at the community and things and) yeah...and there's a global community as well it's like people who had their time and it didn't quite work out for them maybe and they're sort of on their way out now and that's where it's sort of, yeah, the individual, if the individual actually is saying I'm volunteering man (Deb: I'm ready to go) I'm out of it yeah...

Deb: So then the money that almost would have been spent say for the next following six months that would have kept them just barely alive or just barely comfortable that money could almost be put into the community or whatever to jump start... (Luke: Hopefully yeah) hopefully get some kids off to a better start or something if they're.., they're living below the poverty line or something that y'know you can save money if it's about money. Y'know you can save money here and put it back into the community this way or something.

Luke: Often you have the families of someone who has whatever disease it is and there is no cure for it and that's why you're going out. The money that you would spend to keep yourself alive could it make a fund to find a cure for that disease. Irradiate them one by one in that way and do the greater good, sort of take one for the team. I think there's a lot of dignity in that. It's a very noble way to die. I think...I think.., that would lend a great poetry to...to a death.

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Cathy: What about the aspect of love, though? If you love somebody, would you want them to kill themselves before let's say, they would naturally die, or would you want, because you love them, you don't want to see them go through pain?

Deb: Ok.

Cathy: Like, do you have?

Deb: No, I was just gonna say like no, ok, like for our own family members, whatever. Urn, I have a grandfather that's got Alzheimer's really badly, he is not so bad now, but we all sort of know that it's going to get pretty bad. (Cathy: Right) I'm kind of all for it, if it gets to a point. Can we use euthanize him because he's out of his head? He is in pain. He doesn't understand anything. (Cathy: Uh-uh) Once he gets to a point where it's really like that traumatic for the family, like emotionally traumatizing for the family or whatever. Let the poor guy go.

Bow: Is he in pain, though? I mean, it's.., it's in the mind. I mean, what is he actually feeling, I don't know, if you can...

Deb: But when it gets to a point where, like he doesn't get, I mean, he hasn't had a shower in a month apparently. You know what I mean?

Bow: Is it bothering him? Or it that bothering other people? But he doesn't care.

Deb: No, but, but I think that it does get to a point where they, they maybe can sort of like lose all functions, lose all bodily functions, they don't even get up any more, they just don't. Maybe they start to lose more like it spreads out beyond, Alzheimer's whatever, I don't know.

Luke: It's just like a really slow, slow death then, (Deb: Yeah, it's) an excruciatingly slow death. And I think it's that's, uh, it's not really love any more. If it's love, it's more selfish love at that point, because you want, you want grandpa around you. (Deb: Sure you do.) You want these people around you, of course you do. And I don't think there's any guilt in, in sort of saying like, let's let him go, let's let him have a nice, a nice exit sort of thing.

Deb: Ya, ya, ya.

Bow: You're into that, nice poetic.

Luke: That nice poetic exit, yeah. No, you don't want to go out with a lump in your pants and some nurse is.

Deb: Absolutely you know, you know, that's, that's just the way that I see it. I think that if it came to that, I think I'd rather see him go than hang on to him, just and have all the family just (Cathy: That's a very...) just, I mean it's out of love that we'd let him go not out of you know.

Bow: Yeah, speaking of the love and speaking of urn, Steven King who we we're just talking about earlier, the movie, uhm, Dolores Claiborne? (Cathy: Alright.) (Deb: Oh, Yes) What's about that? About this woman who was a real bitch (Deb: That's a great movie) and she, um, she wanted to die, but the love that she had for Dolores her made, she treated her like a shit for her whole life, and she asked Dolores, you know will you kill me, and she, what she throws her down the stairs or something, (Deb: I can't remember the end, but it's an awesome movie, I remember I really like it.) and she, uh, she left her her money, I think. (Deb: Yeah, actually, she did leave her money,) and then, it turns out in the end that she really did love her. It was just her way of showing it, and Dolores ended up, uh, killing her.

Luke: Right out of love, out of love.

Deb: Yeah, because probably, but also probably because that was a sort of relationship where you do what I say.

Bow: Right, You must kill me.

Deb: No, but out of respect, she did. You know, and 'cause also she had the upper hand at that point, she could've totally turned the tables, and made her life a living hell.

Cathy: Let's say, for example, you have a love like your husband or your wife, and they're terminally ill and they say, listen I'm in so much pain, I don't wanna live anymore, would you please kill me? Because I, for some reason this person can't do it themselves. Would you be able to do something like that? Would you be able to euthanize somebody that you love? (Bow: I wouldn't be able to.)

Deb: Well, I don't think I could. (Bow: I couldn't.) I don't know it'd be really hard. Because, again, like you would be in that every special case, where I'd have to sort of be in the situation looking at it going, well yeah, you're really sick, I know you're not gonna get better it's the hardest decision to make, and so maybe I would be the person that would be like I'll see what I can do, I'll try, you know, talk to a doctor who can get some pills.., or something to.

Bow: It depends of the method of death. (Daisy: Right) Shooting them or putting, you know...

Cathy: I have trouble killing a cockroach.

Deb: You know, not me.

Cathy: No?

Luke: If it was more like a sledge hammer or something... I wouldn't wanna do it. There are, there are, There are very peaceful ways to kill the person.

Cathy: That would be a very difficult thing to have to do. (Luke: Sure)

Bow: What do you think about, ok, this is like not people but, back to animals again (Deb: OK) like uhm, the Chinese recently, uh, the people it was in Hongkong, all these chickens had diseases, (Deb: Oh, the flu!) The flu! So they killed like uh, a million five hundred thousand chickens by putting them in barrels and gassing them. That's carbon dioxide. That's a form of euthanasia, I guess. Genocide chicken genocide?

Luke: Um, but people kill poultry everyday anyway. Poultry is going down and they're raising poultry, to kill poultry (Bow: To eat, though) to eat! but just to kill them to knock out a disease. (Cathy: Like Mad Cow disease as well.) Yeah, it just...

Deb: But is it a threat to like humans, right? Like I mean, (Bow: But I think they don't know.) because if they are just looking at the natural order, of course, the chickens gotta go.

Bow: How about like, uh, a lot of cats every year and dogs in America are euthanized just because of population. Is that, do you believe in that, do you think that they should be doing that. Is there other ways to solve the problem? Cathy: Yes, the humane society has a rule if the animal is after three months in the place, they have the right to kill it, to kill it afterward so...

Bow: But do you think that's right? or do you think that there would be other ways of controlling that?

Cathy: I think it's pretty bad actually. (Bow: Uh-uh)

Luke: It's unfortunate I think, but I mean it's, it's I think a necessary evil, I mean if people don't fix their animals, they (Deb: Right, right) will. That's their nature.

Bow: OK, what about China who's got almost a billion people. Are they gonna start doing it just because they didn't neuter each other.

Luke: Well, they are trying to do, uh, like zero-growth population.

Deb: They are trying to implement that.

Bow: But it's not gonna work, you are going against procreation?

Cathy: But yeah you are thinking about that like there are so many people in the world, and there's only a certain number of resources. (Bow: Yeah, what happens when there's not enough food?) Elderly people are taking a lot of money and stuff like this, so if you wanna...

Luke: Yeah, aging populations, this probably gonna be a really big issue in about twenty years when baby boomers all start hitting that age (Cathy: Oh, yeah) like our parents' age kind of thing, when they start getting up to that age, and they're gonna, want rights. It's just gonna be a really important weird thing, (Cathy: It is.) Because they are used to being people who always made all the rules. (Deb: Made the decisions) When, when everything was starting to really get going this century. And I think you're gonna probably, you'll see more where they're coming from and things.

Luke: I think that that's the just the way, they'll want to do it.

Deb: And they could again be the decision makers for that, because there are so many of them, and probably a lot of them will be like, you know what? I don't want to die in this way, I want to go this way.

Cathy: That could be a turning point.

Deb: Because there's gonna be like a loud voice at, at some point. There probably will be a loud voice of baby boomer's wanting it that way.

Bow: It's very interesting because it's like, uhm, with the idea of passing new legislation on allowing people to euthanize family members or people that wanna die allowing them to die, there's also new technology coming out that is helping them to live longer or cryogenics that, you know, might work. So it's like a battle against the two things, like uh, which one is gonna win? Is it gonna be, like we are gonna sustain life longer or, or they're just gonna just kill people at the drop of a dime ?

Deb: I'd like to see them, well I mean who wouldn't, but like obviously like, find cures for diseases.

Luke: Yeah, I think, I think the trend is gonna be try to extend life.

Deb: Well, ya, I know that's what you're saying too, but also like, as ya, well ya, I'd like to see life be able to go on in a, in a...

Luke: Educated way, I mean.

Deb: Yea, like in a way that they're contributing whatever, in a way that they're there like, coherently there.

Cathy: That's an interesting point like to find cures, say for example, you have AIDS, you have cancer, those are pretty you know, terrible ways to die, and you are at the point like, ok, I don't wanna live any more, this really sucks, you kill yourself, and a month later they come up with a cure, hypothetically that could happen. (Luke: Sure, yeah)

Daisy: It totally could, but...

Bow: Well, I mean it has happened, it has happened with like polio and stuff before they came up with a vaccine people die from it or tuberculosis things like that.

Deb: And there is no point in dwelling on it I don't think, because this is the decision you made and if you chose to be euthanized and like two days later, they discovered the cure for your disease, you know, you made that decision, and there is nothing anybody can do to change it, you know, maybe your family is gonna feel a little bit badly, but they let you go through that. But, you know what, they are gonna have to get over it it's a sort of why dwell on it, you know. And you could spend way too much time to...

Luke: And you can always explore your options. I mean if you're like, I'm thinking about maybe killing myself, but if you look into it, you know, you can say (Deb: And you see that it's close.) yeah there is there something on the horizon (Deb: We're going to know.) or thousands of miles away. Basically, we have no idea what you have. It's gonna get worse and worse, like exponentially by the day.

Cathy: Have you ever seen that movie Lorenzo's oil? (Bow: Yeah) Something like this is good?

Bow: There's also a movie uh, the Michael Landon Story? Where uh, he had cancer and the son was trying to get these medicines from, from Mexico that would cure his uh, prostate cancer or something. Michael Landon was just like, no son this is just my uh... (Luke: Oh, really?) You will, you will suffer, he was just like this is what happened to me, this is my destiny, leave me alone.

Luke: Yeah, I suppose there's, there's... (Deb: There're something there.) cause he lived a full life or something.

Bow: Yeah he had all the fame and fortune, and bunch of kids, and a bunch of wives, and jewels.

Luke: Ok, I really think, Yeah, I mean, some people would feel like they maybe they really would wanna die. I mean, maybe they're sick and they're...

Deb: And that's why it's your choice.

Luke: It's the choice, it's not like you have to die and stuff. But I don't think people should be so freaked out by the idea.

Deb: They should be allowed to have the choice. (Luke: Right, right)

Cathy: But what you were saying before about the power of the mind. I think that's something you know like I've seen many movies, and you know the last scene is like I'm dying now. But how do you know that? You have made that decision to die at that point. And you have come to terms with everything in your life even like the unconscious things you don't even think exist. So, if you really wanted to die, maybe you could just die through your mind's power.

Deb: My mom says that happens a lot like at the hospice and stuff like that.

Luke: They decide one night, I think I'm not gonna do it anymore.

Deb: Oh, No. One story that she told me was a man that had AIDS or whatever, and his boyfriend was there and he would stay and stay and stay. He wanted to be there for his last moment. And he finally said, the sick guy said, you know, why don't you go get a cup of coffee and so he left and then he went. And then he came back and he was gone. And my mom had to explain, you know. It's amazing people will choose their time to go. (Luke, Cathy: Yes)

Cathy: I think, I think, that's true, so like maybe somebody that thinks that they wanna die, they wanna have euthanasia, maybe they don't really want to there's some part of them, that is still hanging on to life. Or maybe see people that just hang on, hang on, why is that?

Bow: Maybe they think they can make it, make it through.

Deb: Well, also even when people are told that they have terminal illness, you have six months to live, lots of people will die. That's a powerful statement to say you've got six months to live. Lots, lots of people live, people will die within that six months, because they suddenly give up, but maybe had they not heard those words. They'd just think well, they'll just continue, and continue, and continue. They can't.

Cathy: Yeah, I've heard of that, I've heard of that before, after, right after your doctor says you're gonna die, you die shortly after.

Bow: Yeah, I totally believe in the power of the mind (Deb: Suggestion almost) I think there's a lot more to our minds than we know, than we are more capable of using.

Deb: And so then, if you did open up the avenue of euthanasia, then suddenly that avenue gets a little bit becomes more of a dead end. Because suddenly, it's like well, I'm allowed to go, so I'm gonna go. Less people will maybe choose to try and fight it out or use their own power, their own mind to come through it.

Cathy: Right. Maybe if euthanasia was allowed and you felt like this burden like your family is going through this huge financial burden, maybe then you say, ok, kill me. But maybe really you're not completely ready to die, because if you were, your mind would shut up and accept that, and you would die. Or maybe we haven't really learned to use our minds completely, (Bow: I think so.) and so we can expect that everybody that wants to die, could do it themselves that way.

Deb: It's wow.

Luke: But I mean a lot of these decisions.

Daisy: It's so much to think about it.

Luke: A lot of the situations though, it's often uh, a case of like, not actually being um, given anything, you're not actually being killed per se but often just left, just left alone. I mean just like stop the machines, stop all the gadgets and stuff, (Deb, Cathy: Right) because maybe you are being forced to stay alive. Even though you are well passed, just like, just let me go, or just take me away. But because you got this state of the art equipment hook, hooked up to you and stuff that's like literally keeping your heart pumping and stuff.

Cathy: Manually keeping you alive that supposedly.

Luke: Then you could conceivably and theoretically live forever, why not, you know.

Bow: But I think that idea of being hooked up, and having that technology is because there is hope that they will maybe miraculously, oh, we just found this medicine in Uganda, and the whatever, and uh, here take it now, you're better. That's the whole idea of that.

Luke: It's a race against time or something.

Bow: Exactly, and so it's like we gotta try everything that's humanly impossible (Deb: Right) to keep this person alive as much as we can. And if we can find it.

Cathy: Maybe we shouldn't think of life and death as two completely separate things. Right, you're living in life, and you're dying. Every day every minute, we are all dying, we all accept that fact. (Deb: One closer step to death.) Right? And so, that the death is just a course of living.

Bow: Well, that's yeah, I guess in a certain religion, that's the idea, but I mean, Buddhism is not like that. It's like a cycle, so you're living, you're dying, you're living, you're dying. Maybe they might think another way. That’s not, we're not getting closer to death, but we are getting closer to uh, (Deb: A new life) an anniversary. (Luke: And the government...)

Cathy: But getting close to, I think, to that point, right? Whether it's a death or it's the start of a new life, we are always getting closer to that point. And so do you wanna rush the process, or do you wanna just let it go.

Luke: The thing is the people that make the rules, like the government. They don't see it in terms of, you know, the Buddhist stance or, you know, the continuum sort of from life into death. They just see it as tax paying citizen (Deb, Cathy: Right.) stiff, you know, that's really, they're the ones who are making the decision. And who are basically regulating for the majority of the people whether or not they have control over them.

Deb: They make decisions that aren't based on.

Bow: But if they didn't regulate it, then I think it would get out of hand (Luke: I agree) like we talked about earlier. So they have to regulate somewhat. Because that's what governments set up for to regulate things would get out of hand, it'd be chaos. (Deb: Regulations)

Cathy: If you're in charge of a society, right, you want every single member of your society to be adding something to the society. Right? And that's like maybe a long time ago, and these like forging societies, people had to keep moving, it would make sense to leave the elderly people behind, because they cannot move. Maybe in a farming community, it might be nice to keep the old people alive because they have a lot of traditions, stories, and knowledge to give to the younger generation. So in this society, we have to think, ok, people who are terminally ill, what are they adding to society. And they are actually adding something. They are adding something I don't know.

Deb: Well, That is ok, but if they are, they could be, because if they are willing to try a new drug, they are the ones who are the sick. Right? (Cathy: Right) So they are the ones who are going to respond to the drug. They needs sick people to try (Bow: They're guinea pigs) experimental drugs on. (Cathy: OK, guinea pig is one) Yeah, so they are, they are contributing in some way, you know, like even if they are not physically fit or whatever, you know like they're still making their body available to say like, ya. I will try that new experimental drug because even if it doesn't work, at least you'll know. And that will get you off this page and on to a new page. (Cathy: Right)

Luke: And also they have a unique vantage point being so close to death, and still among the living, you know, and they a have unique prospective in that way.

Cathy: That's right, because.

Luke: That's something that a lot of people will never like we say, we can't really conceive of it, you know, because it's hard for us to say unless we've actually been there, or been that close to it or something, (Bow: That's actually is) uh, the perspective thing, they offer.

Bow: Another problem with government regulations uh, on the bad side of it is that urn, these people that want to try new drugs to try to stay alive, or guinea pigs are, are regulated by the government and they are not letting them try these new drugs that might actually do something or a combination of something or they don't let them try it like (Deb: They aren't so accessible.)

Bow: Because it might be harmful or something. (Luke: Exactly, It might worsen the situation.

Bow: Right now in South Africa, there is a pharmaceutical company that has developed a generic form of the AIDS medication. And the government is not letting them produce it which is really sad because that's where they say you know most of AIDS cases are is in Africa. That's like the hub of it.

Deb: Why? Do you know why?

Bow: Urn, Because it hasn't been tested enough, and what not, but urn...

Cathy: Maybe it's expensive as well, I think.

Bow: That's the generic brand that's why they're making it, because it'll be cheap for the people.

Cathy: Oh, for the masses.

Bow: For the masses. That's the idea. And that's why, and that's the problem.

Luke: But it might have side effects, doesn't (Bow: It might) it might actually make it worse. But it might make it better.

Bow: Yeah, so like I'm sure there's many people that are saying Yeah, give it to met. (Deb: Yeah, exactly, to be that person to be like, woah, I gotta third arm now, so don't be given this out any more, you know like.

Luke: That's where the government actually sort of like has to back off cause it is, it is down to an individual decision.

Bow: I don't know cause I mean, because the government was one that started AIDS in the first place.

Luke: Oh, you're a such conspiracy theorist. (Bow: Yeah) That's not.

Deb, Luke: That's not true.

Bow: That's not?

Luke: You don't know that it is. It probably is, but...

Cathy: We don't know for sure.

Luke: Let's not talk it about anyway.

Cathy: Only the strict facts here, (Bow: OK,)

Cathy, Bow: Euthanasia.

Luke: Euthanasia. Well, is it fair that rich people have like, all the access (Bow: Have all the money?) If you only have the two options, like get really cool like cutting edge technology to keep yourself alive, or you can have euthanasia. Poor people will only have one of those options. The euthanasia option.

Deb: And it's their own form most likely cause...

Luke: You're right.

Bow: Well, I believe, I mean, in life with everything else, it's just like the, uh, the cards that you have been dealt. You're poor, you're rich, you're middle class, that's what your life is. That's what you've been given in this life anyway. And um, if you do have more opportunities to have a bigger house, and a swimming pool. If you have more opportunities to keep yourself alive longer because you have more money than. That's just the way it goes. That's what I think.

Luke: And I think that that's where rich people come in handy when they get terminal diseases, they are very handy, in that way. Because they will actually, only when people do start trying to, yeah they have to develop the stuff, but people have do it before it can be more developed and, it has been studied and stuff. That's where they sort of just lead the way, and eventually, it will trickle down to other people with maybe, less money (Bow: Right) hopefully.

Bow: Of course, like um, poor people a lot more poor people die first before rich people. For example, I have been thinking about this recently, um, Magic Johnson has, had AIDS for what like 10 years now, maybe. (All Yeah) And you don't hear of him ever being sick and going to the hospital?

Deb: Because he's got the money to...

Bow: To take his AZT cocktails.

Deb: Well that, he is probably taking other other experimental drugs and things, he can probably sort of select like, well, Ya, this one on paper looks like it's been, it's really strong like it's a good drug to take. This, what you know, as far as experimental drugs go, he can at least have the choices for which experimental drugs, and he gets so many more opportunities to get those drugs.

Luke: He can afford it, and he can try it, and he's got nothing to lose by trying all these drugs. So he's actually making a, what he is doing is benefiting all of mankind because, if it works on him, then it'll work on the average people. And then that's an avenue that we can continue to pursue, you know, in that, in a scientific sense, do the studies on it and stuff. He's gone into total remission almost with it, you know.

Bow: Doesn't it also cause like people to say, look at him, he didn't die. So I'm not gonna like protect myself, they're gonna come up with a cure.

Deb: But I mean only an idiot would say that, because, well no, really because I mean obviously he is in a different, um, like if you wanna look at it as a class (Bow: Social class) whatever. Ya. He is way up there in a high bracket and stuff, only a fool would think that that's all it was, was oh, he is just another guy, he is not just another guy, he is another rich guy that has...

Bow: But as he may be saying that trickles down they're just saying well, I can make it, I can stay alive long enough until it trickles down.

Luke: Your kidding yourself if you think it's gonna happen that quickly like you're still.

Deb: It's gonna take a lot of time.

Luke: Most people who're dying of AIDS are no where near, what's his face uh, Magic Johnson's bracket, you know, and most people who are suffering from something like AIDS live in, you know, the least developed countries in the world, you know. They just will never develop, they make, he makes in thirty seconds what they make in a year kind of thing. (Bow: Right) to put in into perspective, so, I don't know if that's the best tact to take.

Cathy: So do you think that from that perspective that euthanasia should be available to poor people as an option? Because they can't afford, you know, the pain saving devices that a rich person could?

Luke: I think it's market, market influences supply and demand if people want, if people want to be put out of their misery, they can find a way to put themselves out of their miseries. It's all market flux, you know.

Deb: But then, ya, like it, it almost seems what sort of is a fine line, is euthanasia and suicide? (Cathy: Right) Like, it's, I mean, it's basically it's you killing yourself, you making the choice to die. (Cathy: Right) Right? Ya, ok, ya, if it is assisted or whatever. But is that not what Kervorkian does, though? He has it set up. He has, he sets up the little like whatever it is. And you push the button, when you are ready to go, you push the button. So it's basically you killing yourself. Ya, I guess, I...

Cathy: I think that is euthanasia in the strictest terms, right, like assisted suicide.

Deb: But I mean, otherwise, ya, if that person could just get a hand, get their hands on a bunch of sleeping pills or whatever, would they take the chance of just swallowing those?

Bow: Well, as I was saying earlier, I think they wanna like kind of handover the responsibility to somebody. (Deb: Right) So, it's not just them solely doing it themselves, there is somebody that's taking responsibility for them also. I mean they're taking it on themselves, yes, I'm killing myself. But this guy's helping me, so he is just as bad. You know, if it, if it turns out to be bad in the other world or whatever next like.

Luke: But he is also a medical doctor, he is, he is, like reviewing them, and he is like checking out their condition, and if he is, he is not some guy they met in a bowling alley or something. You know, he is, he's a educated man, he knows diseases (Deb: He's got qualifications) are gonna, he's qualified to say one or the other if it's viable.

Bow: You know, there's doctors that say, you have a month to live and there's nothing wrong with you. You know, you get a second opinion. (Luke: That's true tune up.) I suppose if ...

Deb: But I think he is.

Bow: If these people have gotten to the point where, they're gonna kill themselves. I think they've probably gotten second and third opinions.

Deb: Probably, you know, they definitely probably scoped out their options. And he is probably like a safe bet, you know, and he as far as assisted suicide goes, he's sort of the god father, you know, you can feel safe with him. He will take care of you, and he will get it done the way you want it.

Bow: He will kill you.

Cathy: But he even published a book about different ways to safely kill yourself, because I think that's a big concern. Because it is suicide, right? (Deb: Uho uh) But you don't know like, ok, if I swallow these pills what am I actually going to do? So here you have a book. (Deb: And suddenly you're a vegetable.)

Bow: Is that such a good idea, though, I mean, because it is available to the public for the people that have problems that can be (Luke: Cured) mental problems.

Cathy: I worked in Cole's bookstore in Canada, and his book was for sale.

Bow: I mean is it like uh, is it the right thing to do, or should it be like just given (Deb: Nice plug?) to medical community to, to hand out rather than like in Cole's Bookstore where anybody who's mental and wants to off themselves can buy it and find different ways to do it.

Luke: Yeah, it's sure. It's gotta be an enlightened decision, I think. It's not one that, I don't think anybody who does choose to do that, I don't think it's an easy one to come to. And some people who just wanna off themselves because they just can't take it anymore (Deb: Oh, Yeah)or for the sheer whatever of it. That's definitely not, that's not something that you'd like to open up.

Deb: That's beyond euthanasia, you know, well, that's, I think, you know, like Bow, the specific cases about people that are sick, and that, that you know.

Luke: But I mean it's a bookstore, it's like a trip to your local bookstore wherein and by making, by opening up too much, by making it a little too easy just to kill yourself.

Bow: As far as like marketing goes, I think that's kind of interesting, I mean that's a book that I'd like to read just for...

Cathy: It's interesting.

Deb: Yah, it would be interesting.

Bow: There are selling, you know, the popularity of it I think, it just not so cool, but...

Cathy: How about how you feel about this like ideally, this is how I think. Right now in the position that I'm in I would like to say that I'll live my life through the way that it's planned, if I'm meant to have a very painful long death then, I will do that. This is what I am saying now.

Deb: Sure.

Cathy: And if I have a family member who is going through a lot of pain, and wants me to help them kill them, I would like to say that I could also do that.

Deb: Right.

Cathy: So I don't know if that's contradictory.

Deb: No, I don't think it is because you're speaking of yourself, and you're also allowing someone that you love to have their own decision.

Bow: That's the problem with a lot of these topics is that we can think of our opinions but until we are actually in that position (Deb: Who knows?) Yeah, we don't really know, we can just guess what we (Deb: Which is interesting.) think it would be like.

Deb: Maybe more when the baby boomers do get to that point, is that they're the ones that are going to definitely put the final decision on it, you know. They will be the ones that are there going through death and pain and the whatever, that gets them to be end.

Bow: Yes, I think it's a really just urn, case by case, situation depends on the situation at the time if someone should be euthanized, depending on maybe finance, depending on urn, (Luke: Individual preference?) Exactly, (Luke: On, on, on family opinions.)

Deb: Yeah, definitely case by case I think, it's probably.

Cathy: You'd like to live in a place where the government said that it is legal.

Deb: Well, that it's your choice.

Cathy: Right.

Deb: Right? Legally it's your choice.

Cathy: Uh-uh.

Luke: Right, but also don't put too much hands in, too much power in the hands of just your average people. Also, although governments are kind of dumb, people are also kind of dumb, so they have to counter-balance each other. You don't want just everybody going around euthanizing themselves or,

Deb: And they are not gonna please everybody, but if they can definitely open up the door, but put restrictions on it. I think then you sort of you've got to at least, you can satisfy both sides somewhat, you know.

Luke: Alright, let's get out of here then.

Deb: Ya, I've got a class right now, so.

Cathy: That's ok, it was a good conversation guys, next time let's talk about something brighter.

Luke: A little more up.

Bow: OK, it's on you, Luke.

Deb: OK, thanks Luke, see you later.

Luke: I got the bill again, you guys, come back here. Ha ha ha ha.

三册1B
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SIDE B
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Vivian: Why not put the same standards on children as we do on ourselves you know everyone always says "Hey, so, are you happy?" No I got this terrible job, I'm stressed out, I never get any sleep I don't enjoy life etcetera, etcetera. But then doesn't that apply for children as well, I mean if you're not satisfied with your job but you're making lots of money but you're still not happy right. And people always say hey you got to do something that you like to do that way you Can do it for the rest of your life. It's the same with children hey education is long term as well, you know, you're going for what preschool all the way to, you know, after that even more for some people they got eight more or twelve more years even after high school...

Bow: Sure hopefully it's a lifelong, lifelong thing...education.

Vivian: No, you know I have a godfather, excuse me, godfather who still educates himself. He is...in his sixties now early sixties he's the most intelligent person that I have ever met. He educates himself on a daily basis you know he still goes to school he still reads books and newspapers and he's always trying to get a higher education always trying to, you know, kind of pick at my brain even with stimulating conversations.

Luke: I think the thing is people the thing about jobs that's so weird about back home is that people define themselves so much by their jobs not by who they are.., that's why you have these people who were like well I happen to work for this company or whatever and it's like oh what's your position and a big drawing point for a lot of people if they are trying to get someone... hire someone for a job.., highly qualified person it's the title that they're giving you will be the executive co...junior executive in charge of marketing... it's a long title that's ridiculous. It's just a name but it gives the people the feeling of status and it's like this kind of pay off for everything you've done and everything and it's just it's bizarre. I think it's like.., the first question you get asked back home is so what do you do and that's basically it and people can sort of decide based on that if you're worth talking to.

Daisy: Exactly, yeah, that really annoys me I have a problem with that.

Bow: I think it's actually more here in Asia the status thing where once you enter certain status you can't leave it. I mean.., in the States you can move between titles here once you are stamped with a title and status that's pretty much it for you and you really can't move into other circles. For example I have a friend who was he studied architecture and art at the same time and he came to Korea and he teaches architecture and he taught architecture through painting. And it was a very interesting way to visualize architecture in a two dimensional medium. And they didn't accept him here and they didn't accept him as... he was.., he had to be either one or the other he had to be either an artist or an architect he couldn't be both. And I think that's kind of that limits a lot of people once they finish their higher education and move into certain jobs.

Luke: I think that's a Korean thing, too. I think there isn't less competition within companies. There's sort of an understanding once you work at this company you're part of the family, I work for this company or for this company and everybody knows their place and it sort of there is more of a team a bit of co-operative spirit. There's not as much room for the advancement and there's not as much drive to really to really work hard.

Vivian: Well the reason being is because eventually you're gonna get up there but you always have to start from the bottom and even if you come from great college or university you start from a certain position that they have a name for. And then after two years you without exception unless you really were bad apple you go to the next level and so eventually after twenty years you gonna hit that top you know.., to see.

Luke: How does it work? Everybody seems to be doing that but their salary is like maybe on average one million and six hundred or seven hundred a month. But they say the living standard now people need like 3 million at least with a kid and a wife how do they?

Daisy: Bonuses... they get bonuses.

Luke: Still it's not gonna make it 3 million a month.

Vivian: No, no, no, no... the bonus is actually a lot of the times more than your salary that's what it is you get the bonuses the big bonus every couple of months or how many times a year that are actually many times more than the... And it depends on what projects you may be doing you get another promotion then.

Luke: But then and like America the key to getting the bonuses or stuff is not to like get out there shake things up and see what you want to do better than everyone else. It's make way don't make waves just be quiet be patient and things will pay off for you.

Vivian: How about going back to things that we are talking with Korean society versus the American work force? What do you think about this? I notice that in Korea many people go to university and pick a subject that they're going to study a major or whatever. For example I know people who choose I'm... I majored in architecture for example and so what do you do now what company do you work at now obviously expecting him to say I work in such and such architectural company or whatever but Iow and behold he says I work in English education or, you know, something almost the opposite of what they majored in. I don't understand how that is possible but here it is.

Bow: I'll take that on.

Vivian: Ok.

Bow: I think actually that is what is happening with so called x-generation in America and I read this article about this kid he had graduated high school with like uh... history major or something. And he was sitting in a hot tub and his apartment was, you know, like a thousand dollars a month apartment or whatever. And he was complaining that he couldn't find...he couldn't find a job in his major. And the thing is why they call him the x-generation is another thing all together the x-generation they complain about things like that so they end up working, at you know coffee shops or whatever they can because but they are not trying as hard as their parents who were the baby boomers who did most of them if they studied architecture or history. They went into those kind of jobs for the reason that they wanted their kids to have better life.

Vivian: So your point is the reason why people these days are running off to other fields is because they don't want to try on their own?

Bow: Because they don't have the same reasons as their parents did or those baby boomers kids before you know...and uh yeh...I think it's all over the world these days it's just like, I think kids are becoming...

Daisy: Lazy?

Bow: Yeh... they're not like I think everyone has a gift.., they're not like a lot of people...yeh...they are not even trying. They just like gave up on society they gave up themselves and this is what everybody else is doing so that's what I'm gonna do...um...in Korea I know that people will choose majors because other people are doing it. It's popular that's not necessarily a bad thing to not work in your major. It's just like oh you have education on this. l knew a guy whose major was French... so I was like "Do you speak French?" "No," "What do you do?", "I work for, you know, a company." OK. Great.

Vivian: Because in the American society...it's either one or two things first ok this job is very popular it's going to be... when I was about to graduate all the teachers were pushing us everyone if you haven't decided you should seriously consider computers and computer science, computer programming everyone you know.., the salaries gonna be up and be one hundred plus and you know and that's what they're encouraging or if you have a talent... I had one of my best friends was a genius and, you know, artistically another one played, you know, the sax like you know you've never heard. And so if you had a specific talent they say go toward that, you know, go to Julliard or whatever or they try to tell you these are gonna be the fields that are going to be there's gonna be lots of jobs available or the salaries are going be really big in four years when you graduate.

Bow: I give you more specific detail about of my own decision when I was going to college or applying for colleges. I like drawing and I like designing things so I just thought and Luke had a valid point about the status thing in America and when you're in high school you look at all those factors and architects sounds pretty good, you know, it's a status position and I do like doing the stuff then once I started getting into it...um...I really like the design classes and things like that the other stuff I didn't really get into and urn... (Luke: You like the creative aspects) I like the creative aspects but I learned that it's not just that in architecture you can't just be the designer you got to be the business man and you gotta be a mathematician you gotta be an engineer you gotta be all these things. I didn't wanna do any of that even though like I put myself into this position that well I'm just go ahead and do it. So I got jobs in architecture and some of them I liked but then some of them I just realized there's gotta be another way to fulfill I mean I can still use my education just not as what people think an architect is. I don't want to be a number in company and I don't wanna be drawing other peoples' designs for the rest of my life.

Daisy: You're looking for the personal satisfaction.

Bow: Yeah. And I think that's why I am in that situation or I didn't take a job in my major.

Daisy: So you slowly strayed from what you thought would be...

Luke: Not necessarily...yeh...I mean in what society thinks that you are supposed to do you have to be the architect. He is an architect. I mean I still consider myself an architect even though i'm not working in the architectural office.

Vivian: You know I did the same thing. I mean I wanted to be a musician and my father made me go to university and study economics which I just knew from the first day I didn't wanna do. Then I eventually went back to university and studied English Literature. Everybody was asking me like why are you studying this, why aren't you doing anything else well I had a musical education since I was young and that's what my job is now but I chose it because one I wanted that uh... stimulation that you get from tertiary education and I wanted to know things I wanted to understand literature and to have better understanding of the world and society and I think that it did definitely improve my understanding of those things. But everything is interconnected what Bow was saying about his architectural degree and the way he now applies it in his life. For me my education in English Literature has helped me write better lyrics helped me understand lyrics has helped me love reading which is, you know, the best education you ever gotta get is picking up a book and reading it. And I think that perhaps the x-generation what you were talking about.., may be they have become lazy because I think kids are much more privileged now than they were 20 years ago. But maybe it's also because these kids went to university and picked a major like history or science or something like that. And they know they don't wanna be a history high school teacher or you know a scientist in some factory punting numbers on a computer. Maybe they are looking for some more personal satisfaction in their lives. I think that if that is true and they are holding out and finding something that's gonna make them happy that's good. If they're finding something that's gonna pay them fix figures that's not good. I hope that people are looking for personal satisfaction.

Luke: I think there's a lot of disenchantment with.., with that whole for our parents were alright You know you getta a job you getta a stable life that's how they that's how they were raised that's what they knew for people... there is a bit of a line between people our age. There's the get out there and go getters that are always so chipper and just wanna they are always motivated, they are always happy and they just wanna get to the top everyday is sunny day. Yeh...and then they're are other people who are just like there is other things to life than just like climbing the corporate ladder then, you know, until you forty and then, you know, divorcing your wife getting a sports car blowing your brains out or something.

Vivian: I know another point that can be made if you look at Korean culture too. You see in general not necessarily because of education but these families with children that stay with the family way beyond the years that we would stay with our family. I was.., everyone always says you know even 5 years ago, "Why are you so young and living alone?" they think I was disgraced by my family or for some reason, hey you turn eighteen you're out of the house... in early foreign society you're a bum.., you're literally a bum and eating off your parents you know.

Daisy: If you still living with your parents.

Vivian: Yeh, you're disgraced from the neighborhood they always say hey so and so's kids still in the house and they are 20-something but the culture's different yes I understand. But I was just thinking another aspect to that is recently in the news if you've been listening you hear about all these universities turning in these figures where they have so many students but nobody in the classroom reason being one, because these kids don't want to get out there they don't know what to do once they get out there and second, well there's a lack of job because no one's filling in, you know the jobs there's not enough jobs for them after they graduate so they instead of staying five or six years they take off a year, and then come back for 6 months and then they take off another year because they try to extend that um that eventual, you know gotta get out in the society thing.

Luke: But another thing is you gotta realize that as time goes on you're not just static entity, you know, if you structure education out over time like the way I was thinking and the person I was when I first started university (Vivian: it changes) it's totally I'm totally different person and can I qualify a person, can I qualify the person that I was seven years ago to make all the decisions for what I'm going to do for rest of my life. I was, I was a bonehead back then I'm still not much better now but I wouldn't trust the person I was then to make the decisions for who I am today.

Vivian: Even the person you are in one year you change dramatically and then 7 years think about it. (Luke: sure) and for me even when I first went into school again it was just like I was just living a totally different life than everyone else my age that school was not for me at that time, you know, it was everyone was experiencing freedom and having the time away from their parents for the first time partying every night. I was partying too but I also had a full time job (Luke: different responsibility) exactly, I just had different ambitions it was so much different from my fellow, you know, classmates so it just was not right for me at that time. I did want the education but it just seemed like that I would be pushed backward almost being influenced by the people that were next to me and I was just thinking I think I wanna come back after I have matured a little more myself, second, when I have more clear grasp of what I wanna study and that I do want to study and I maybe then I would be able to concentrate a bit more on my studies. I knew then already that I wanted to study seriously and not be parting every night and studying in the day time. I wanted to just study and work.

Luke: Even if you know what you want to study at a certain time. (Vivian: It changes) the reality and so does the technology and the work force and what's available out there and things move so fast these days that there's no such things as job as security as our parents knew or whatever. So the bottom line is, yeh, to be taught the most valuable thing you can get from any school education is how to be well rounded and how to be able to move and adapt and how to just have a whole bunch of different strengths and be able to change at will whenever something changes in the work force or in what job's demand.

Vivian: So virtually like anything else in life education is another complicated thing because you can't do one and not complete the other. I mean we were just talking about earlier how you want to find peace with yourself so you can go after the topic or the major that you want to study in school and what will make you happy and yet now you have to be well rounded still to keep your job and to keep that you know security in your job and it's not as easy as pie.

Daisy: Well, I think that the really important issue here is that your education is not just something you get from college that it's also an ongoing process whether that be in your job or in your life and I personally I hope to call myself a student until the day I die. I think the more you learn the less you realize you know and it just encourages you to continue that education and to learn more.

Vivian: And if you are a well developed person and you get along well with the people that around you and stuff you know as we were talking about earlier the street wise kind of person. You, you further yourself in the work place as well because if you look at people who aren't so you know don't get along so well with people around them then you can succeed as far just because you're talented.

Bow: But to reiterate what Daisy was saying is that um... I want to make this point. You don't necessarily have to go to college to get an education. And I will give you another example that when I was living in Korea I had decided to stop living in Korea and go to graduate school. And the reason was because I believed all that stuff like you have to educate yourself you have to go to institution. So I went to the graduate school that I was going to apply to it was an art school and I met some of the students in there and they were so colorless and I thought they would be so great because they are artists and stuff but they were all kind of they had the same kind of M.O. as just like any kind of student. Whereas the people that I meet here in Korea are so much more colorful and I learn so much more from them and like or other people like that come here from different countries of the world I learn so much more than having that paper.

Vivian: Well you know you gotta think that being in a foreign country and you have so many people from different lands come here. Those people that came here they're not run of the mill kind of people.., they're.., first they gotta have guts to go somewhere else and they were interested in learning more and growing and developing within themselves.

Bow: Yes, I agree and also I thought. I'm not gonna to graduate school and I'm gonna make the world my class room. And another way would be this is good base to travel to other countries and learn about other cultures which I really haven't got the chance to do but again you can still do that without visually seeing that a little bit like vicariously through other people that do and go and have these experiences you know like people that were there they might think about going to Thailand but would they really know why would they have a lot details of like uh, why they would wanna go there or do they just wanna go to like cool beach and do drugs you know.

Daisy: Well you know I agree with everything both of you have just said but I also think an education cannot be replaced if you enter that institution or that education for the right reasons. I don't think the right reason are going for the job on the Wall street or the six figured salaries. But if you go into that institution and you're mentally prepared for what you're going to learn and you're using that information in a practical way not just in the theoretical way that society has told you should use it. Then I don't think there's anything that can replace that type of education.

Bow: We might all agree at that point. But then again like it still is the fact that people need that piece of paper to get on.

Vivian: Yeh reality bites.

Daisy: That's true. I think you do if you want to be in a profession that requires you to have a science degree or that requires you to have a degree in psychiatry or whatever of course it's necessary.

Vivian: Or you just can't get beyond the barrier there are still people who practice and who work in those field they may not have a piece of paper but most of time in general you need it.

Daisy: Right, but I specifically talking about professions like psychiatry. I mean you can.., because psychiatrist unless you have 7 year degree.

Vivian: Unless you're Dear Abby.

Bow: Also I think this is philosophy of the x-generation which is while I go bust my butt for 4 years and get my degree but now I'm gonna be a bartender because it's more fun and if I like lose my job.

Vivian: You still have security.

Bow: Yes. I just can go back and become a history teacher.

Daisy: I don't see anything bad with that though.

Bow: But I don't either.

Daisy: I don't see anything wrong with it.

Bow: No, I'm not saying it in negative way.

Vivian: It's a something insurance.

Daisy: No.

Bow: I am just stating the fact.

Daisy: I think so a bartender with university degree that has a broad knowledge of history or you know psychology would be a fascinating bartender. I'd go to that bar. He probably make a good living owning a bar and tending that bar. I don't see any problem with that.

Bow: The job bartender is derogatory.

Vivian: But any job.

Bow: Another job that is outside of your major.

Daisy: That's the thing I think that it doesn't matter what you study that education somewhere down the track is going to benefit you as long as you have approached that education with open mind and you've actually gained something from it.

Vivian: And also you don't have to necessarily have I mean after you have that piece of paper you are still educating yourself not necessarily by going to school but there are many people who educate themselves like I said my godfather to the States still educates himself and is always looking for a new you know.

Daisy: You know that's really important too, furthering your education and constantly wanting to get increase your knowledge but I also think that you know if we just approach our education in a different way without the capitalistic ideals behind it and thinking or encouraging your children to go to school for different reasons not because you have to win not because you have to be this or do that just for the reason that education was originally created by Greek philosophers you know to improve you as human being to grasp the higher faculties and get something from them.

Vivian: And maybe before we close since we talked about early education you know later on education life now and work. Maybe we should touch base before we end the conversation on you know education in your later years you know these days you hear a lot about people going back to get that piece of paper or you know still like I said my godfather still I mean he has had that piece of paper but still continuing to you know strive for more and higher education. Do you think you still be studying and maybe groping more knowledge?

Luke: I don't know if I'll be academically studying I might be I'd like to leave the option open. I wouldn't be I wouldn't feel ashamed or like I was going backwards by going back to school if it was something that interested me. but I just think that hopefully the kind of jobs I'll end up with will allow me to explore different avenues and to grow in different ways and to become more enlightened with different things and I mean that's kind of that's hopefully what it is... they say you know the best way to be successful and happy is to find something you really like and figure out a way to get paid for it and if you can do that that's pretty good.

Daisy: You know I definitely agree with everything you just said I hopefully I want to always be a student whether it be at an academic institution or student of life but I believe when I was last at college I took a few philosophy classes and I loved them and I think that's my next step, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna get another degree in philosophy not for my job just because I love it and that is I think the essential reason for studying. If you love it and you are interested it then go and study it.

Vivian: Right. I definitely agree, I found that I am very satisfied oh I wanna learn this or these days I wanna take lessons doing this because it satisfies me not because it's going to get me higher up on that chain, It will eventually, It satisfies me and gives me some sort of personal gratification being able to learn another you know trade or learning more knowledge.

Luke: I think of a lot of employers when they are looking to hire someone the way that everyone these days is so over qualified for so many jobs. People have gone to school for so long and have learned so much about so many jobs about their fields and stuff so specialized. I think the really difference is the edge you'll get is this is being well rounded interesting person. I mean no one wants to work with someone whose the best and very intelligent and very hard working but has a lame personality and is a total deadbeat to hang out with, You work with your co-workers you wanna be to able to get along with them you wanna be stimulated by them you wanna be interested in them you have to work with the people,

Bow: I disagree kind of a little bit. Yes at some points I do agree depending on the job what if it's like NASA, I don't really want or like heart surgeon I don't want the guy joking around.

Luke: The majority of jobs I'm saying.

Bow: The lame jobs like accounting and stuff.

Daisy: I don't know a heart surgeon with a humorous personality.

Bow: Ok, Maybe like when he's not.,,

Vivian: Squeezing your heart,

Bow: Maybe outside or something.., Hey you want hear a joke. You got three days to live.

Daisy: Yeh with scalpel in your head.

Bow: Just kidding.

Luke: I mean how much of your time of course part of whole work thing and having a cohesion in any work environment is you do you work for a bit and you work well together but then you're not working when you get to kick back a bit can you have anything to talk about can you hang out it's cool can you go for some beers after a hard days' work. I am sure guys from NASA go out for beers after a hard days' work.

Daisy: That has to be in any working environment whether it be NASA or whether it be this studio here some kind of camaraderie between people. And you know that is something that life and living and relationships can only give you. So I think that you know in closing that an education is irreplaceable and it's very important but we have to look at the reasons why we are educating ourselves once again.

Vivian: Right.

Luke: And also try to foster in our own children and in our schools and in our teachers an attitude of not competition with another not by route appreciation and learning of things but an absorbing of things internalization of ideas and an ability to interact and cooperate with your peers throughout all stages of growth and throughout education because those are the values that are really those are the traits that really valued when you are in an actual job's situation and which will benefit everyone like all of humanity in the long run,

Vivian: Ok and also you know I think and foster other ways to educate them like don't make them lazy like we're talking about x-generation encourage them to have part time jobs while they're at school so that they learn other lessons as well.

Bow: Um and also I think that our views today I wanna say this to our listeners that you know our views have been really pretty much liberal. You know a lot of conservative views out there people will say no this is the right way and it really is up to you these are our opinions and uh, you know everyone has different opinions this group here just has more I think liberal opinions than other people.

Luke: Yes but if truth really be known. We're right.

Daisy: Amen.

Vivian: We hope.

Luke: We know it.

二册2B

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Bow: Think about it this way, like ok, that those are in we know like from our society like in North America, or Australia, in developed countries or Korea, like um, everybody's looking for a sense of community and they use the church that way.

Daisy: But I do think that it, I mean, it has to become at some point, I mean, it's great, if we can sit around and have a drink and share our thoughts on spirituality and we agree, I don't see what the difference of us doing that and going, the concept of going to church on a Sunday as a community, I don't see the difference in that. As long as you are, and you brought up that concept m what is holy? Well I believe that, that being holy is just being aware that you too are a spiritual being. I believe that, the bible says that we're created in God's image, Buddhism says that we're, we are part of the chain, the chain, we are all, and we are nothing. It's all connected, and it's all in who we are. If we're aware that we are spiritual, we're just on a path of trying to be better and bettering ourselves you are a holy person, and I don't think it's up to any religion to tell me that I'm not holy because I go and have IVF or because I choose not, I choose to take contraception.

Luke: I really do hate that aspect of religion, the prosylitizing type of evangelical preachy kind of religion, where it's where there's an effort.., the whole idea of the mission, going out and converting these people and making them, you know, understand and believe exactly the way you believe in things. Because I think ultimately it has to be a personal experience. Religion is such a subjective thing and you can only, really, surround yourself with people who have generally the same ideas you have. If you try to get to, to detailed in what you believe and what you don't believe, you come up with, with arguments and it is just a faith thing, it has to be left at that.

Vivian: Exactly, the reason why we have more and more divisions of each religion, (Luke: Yes, they keep splintering) because, when you keep dissecting this, the reason why we can and can't, this is what we are supposed to do, why we come up with more divisions?

Bow: Well, I think that, yeah, this is all true, but religion is connected to community and people want a sense of community and to get that, I think, they go through religion. So, um, like you're talking about what is good and I'm a good person, but you're only a good person according to what your community thinks, other people around you. So this might be a bad example, but, like let's say, a guy, a human being, a baby that's raised by wolves like Tarzan, it's kinda stupid. Um...well I mean, if you think about it that way, he doesn't have ant connection to other people (Daisy: Society) so then, maybe he will be purely holy, he's just acting on instinct, just like, even though he's got a brain, like the wolves do.

Daisy: Good point, so therefore religion then, is based on society? Well, there's plenty of problems with society, if we're gonna base it on that, religion can be a good thing, but it has to lead you back to yourself. If you are not back to yourself to make your own decisions, with some type of, you know, a personal conscience if you're not understanding the reasons why this is a sin or the reasons why this is good and bad. Then I think that the whole concept then of religion would be anti-christian, because you are not perpetuating christian values.

Vivian: Don't you think that's the reason why religion has become impure, God and the church or the monastery or whatever, is supposed to be pure and you're supposed to go there to release and to learn. But then, because of all these society, societal pressures that we receive the church is not as innocent and pure as it used to be, like I would like to think of church as "Little House on the Prairie', you go Sunday, you meet people you come there to not only socialize, but to feel good and go back after a prayer thank you for our harvest and what not and please give us blessing. Then you go and chop it up and then people want to dissect the religion and say, well wait a minute, she got a pr...uh, she got an abortion, of she did this and that. And then you come up with all these issues and that's where church becomes so, ... it's a hypocrisy. After a while, you just want to, you know, why can't I just be the nice little picture, and go there for faith, and for moral reasons, and maybe support, (Luke: Support, yeah.), support, exactly.

Luke: I grew up, I was raised on a commune actually, of families who were, whose ideology was based on a sort of a communality and belief in, belief in Jesus and stuff. And um, it was yeah, it was done in the living room, you know, people would ... the families would come together, and they worship in the living room, just sit around the piano, and play songs and stuff, kind of the hippie vibe, it's kind of kind of cheesy now but it was really nice. It was a nice way to learn about religion and stuff, and whatever beliefs I developed later, that was a really nice thing, and as time grew on, the families, they are, like the church itself grew and other families became involved and it grew and it became larger in size, and then after a couple of years, the issue was raised of, of gender in the church, can't God be a man, and a woman, or does it just have to be a man. And it was, just, I don't know where it came from, but the question was raised, and all of a sudden people had very strong opinions on this. Just because it was raised, everyone was getting along but when that came up, all of a sudden there was this huge division in the church and so, suddenly, all my friends who'd grown up with in this commune and stuff, who'd all moved out by that time of course, they were all going to, to alternating sundays. I couldn't meet my friends anymore, because the people who believed God was a man came on this Sunday, and the people who thought God could be a man or a woman came on the other Sunday. It totally changed everything.

Vivian: Exactly, that's the hypocrisy of the church. I mean, the bigger it gets, and the more we try to (Daisy: Dissect it) you know, nit and pick at it and everything, the worse it gets. Isn't it nice? If, you are just in a small little church, everyone's very friendly and good to each other, and there, to support each other.

Daisy: But that would be saying that everybody has to believe what everybody believes everybody else thinks, I don't think that, I think that's just human nature, that's gonna happen, but it becomes a big problem when it gets huge and organized, and I think that's the problem if we keep it at a personal level, or small community thing, it'd be much better.

Bow: Yeah, and I have a good example of this of like community and church and like when Korean people immigrate to America, the majority of them join a church, and the reason is because the people that have already gone there are connected to everything else, that means setting up that person and they bring a little bit of money and they join the church, that means that they just except all their beliefs or whatever, just for the reason that they can get set up in the community, the church gives them loans. They're real state agents, they tell them where to locate, they tell them everything. And it kinda puts religion on the back-burner, or they just wanna live a new life and they're not really caring about beliefs. I talked to my, urn, uncle-in-law, my uncle and, he said, I said, "Why do you go to that catholic church?" He says, because after the service is finished we can drink beer and tell dirty jokes.

Vivian: Well, come on, that's the negative aspect of it, but O.K. I go to visit my parents once in a while and my sister and my mom, and everybody goes to Korean methodist church. And I went there to visit and we have literally three caucasians in the entire population of the church, who are like husbands of maybe Korean women. But it's a church of maybe five hundred, six hundred, just Koreans and it's a small knit neighborhood, almost, their own little society. And I'd like to compare it to like Plymouth, you know in 3amestown. You have, you're in the middle of this huge country, you don't know anyone, you can't speak the language. I noticed that a majority of them couldn't speak the language but they all goes to this church, yes they have prayer and they eat together and they listen to the service together but then afterward they have little classes for people who can't. You know, speak English, they'll have English classes, they'll have Korean classes for those don't. They, they take people shopping, they help them out in this community.

Bow: I experienced this when I was a little kid in third grade. My best friend was a Korean and they used to go to like this church, I think it was either Baptist or Methodist. And my family was Catholic, so my parents just thought that, "well, it's christian, so, you know, go with him one day'; he brought me to his church one Sunday. And I, I got really scared because, they went to one of those classes, and they told me that I had to be saved right there, that means that if I'm saved then I'm guaranteed of going to heaven, I was like well, you know, that was not like, let's not, you what catholicism told me, I got really scared, and I said well I'd better just do it just in case, you know like, you know, so I did, but I thought it was really freaky, and like they would play games with the bible like they'd call out, urn, a proverb or something and everyone would try to flip through it and find it first, and I was like, what is going on here? This is bizarre, you know, so, I think, they got their own little thing going on over there (Luke: Uke a contest or something) yeah, but, you're right, in... you're coming from one country and going to another, it's very easily, it's easy to a... make that transition and they, that's they've set up church because to them there, as far as the American society looks at Asians coming to America. They're like, oh they're good people because they're christians and they have this church but they got a lot of other stuff going around?

Vivian: O.K. alright. That's the reason church is there, it's supposed to support the community and help each other out, give a lending hand, what about foreign churches that are here, for foreign communities, you go there and you're lost, hey, the church is gonna help you find residency, they're gonna help you find a, help you get around with transportation, you need help here, there, you need help finding a job, we're gonna help you, because that's what the community is supposed to be there for, isn't the church supposed to be the backbone of the community? It's supposed to be there for you, when you need something, you can rely on them, when there's a drought, when there's starvation, the church is supposed to give you a helping hand, that's why they're there.

Daisy: Actually, I thought that, was what the role of government was supposed to do, (Vivian: but the government doesn't fulfill that as much as it can, it should) well, that's a problem, that's a problem if the American government isn't doing that. In Australia we have a government that's set up, um I would consider to be fifty percent socialist, and fifty percent capitalist, so that people that don't have jobs, that don't have money if there's a flood, they're given money. I have a problem, I have a problem with urn, the church doing too much for people, and I really think that um if the church is playing such an integral role in society, that it's playing the wrong role, especially because um you know if the past, the pastor or whatever he's called, if he is taking money and he's taking money from these people and he, and they find the church to be so important. Then in christianity, it was 3esus Christ himself that walked in and told them to tear down the temple because it's not the church, it's not the temple that is most important thing. It's your relationship with God.

Vivian: O.K. and I agree with that, I don't think that you have to be physically in the church to be religious, I think you should, you don't have to go to church at all, it's my opinion, but I'm saying church can have out-reach programs, they can have programs to help the community and its members. If not, if they can't get involved in any of that, and it is only and strictly the role of the government or private agencies, then what is the role of church. Is it so you can go in there, cause this is what I find, so stupid literally about churches, is church there so you go can go on Sunday with your hymnal, and your, you know, study materials, listen to the preacher and then listen to a bunch of songs and then go home, that's what it's there for?

Bow: Because people thought that they're doing their duty.

Vivian: Yeah, exactly, that, that's, what it becomes, it ends up being a dutiful thing (Daisy: right) and it becomes, Sunday morning we wake up, get pretty, go to church, listen to the minister, sing songs and then go home. (Daisy: Yeah) That's not what church is supposed to be, they're there to support you, that is all a morale thing doing the, you know, going to church and singing and listening to... that's a morale thing, after church, then people can, one on one, not with the minister, but it can be the person sitting next you "hey, are you're having problem?, do you need someone to talk to?", Help thy neighbor, this, this kinda stuff is in the, in the bible, it's supposed to be there for support, and I think that the stories, my personal opinion is, I think that those stories in the bible are examples for you to, to, you know, get fulfillment out of... maybe, a foundation or you know for you to maybe get some morals out of, like you listen to -- there's a story of well.., she's a bad woman but they were all criticizing her, and God comes and helps her, hey, they're not saying do the same thing. They're saying help someone that is, you know, that everyone else is maybe not so nice to.

Daisy: Right. I think that, that is all good if the church is helping poor people and also for people helping you know, the needy (Vivian: sure, why not?) or the people that need support in settling in a country or whatever. But I'm saying that the church should never become the focus of why they're joining the church itself.

Vivian: Exactly, it's why that, there's so much corruption in churches especially what the past ten years, you know, in America, there's big scandals. Because they're getting money, they're using this money they're not actually as religious as they seem, it's when the churches become too big and corrupt. You wanna keep them small-scale so that they are really supporting the community.

Daisy: Right.

Vivian: How about this, how about we skip to another topic, since we got so depth on this. How do you feel about going to heaven and going to hell, uh, does anybody have any opinions on that?

Bow: Yeah, I used to think that that's all there was, there was a heaven and a hell, but now I don't think about it, because I think there's just like I said earlier, there's interpretations of heaven and hell, to the Buddhists, you know, it's like being recycled, to, you know, urn, to me, it doesn't really matter what you call it, it's just, eventually, we're gonna go somewhere and we'll find out then, you know, so, I mean, I think it's like a fear tactic, especially for the catholic church to say like hell and describe it so vividly, you know to say that, who wants to go there for eternity?, you know, of course you're not gonna not people, and you know.

Vivian: And they, and they make it a point to teach it to you while you're really little, and then it's in your head. Once you're an adult, if someone were to say there's this place called hell and you're gonna die and if you go there, it's really bad.

Bow: Well, here's another thing speaking about death, um now what do you, what do you believe is more scary, like I think actually. I was afraid of like when they would tell me well you go to heaven, and you just live forever, and I was like, I can't think of living forever (Daisy: sure,) that's bizarre to me or another thing that would be bizarre is the other way, the opposite way is, everything just turns black, and that's scary too, you know, so...

Daisy: Nothingness.

Vivian: And what about reincarnation too, I mean...

Bow: That's my way out. Once I found out about that, I'm like.., cool. I'll just come back again.

Luke: I'm a duck.

Vivian: You, you live a different life, right. A flower, a tree.., a duck.

Bow: You're putting it down, but you've never been a flower, you haven't been a duck.

Vivian: No, I think that's better than, it's better than living one life forever.

Daisy: Sure, I think that most of those things in christianity were probably, you know, made up, to control people, you know, I think the Catholic church is and the christian church the England as well has used those tactics in many ways to control things like, even population (Bow: and it's worked) you know, the church of England said it's ok, to take contraception when the Catholic church didn't. I think there's a lot of historical background I think in those concepts, but um, yeah, I don't know, I think, I'd like to go with the reincarnation thing. But then if you get to utopia, where are we going after that?

Bow: Well, that's the thing I was talking about before.

Daisy: Nirvana, nirvana, that's it.

Luke: The collective consciousness whatever, that one is supported by, by, science actually to a degree and the Nitrogen cycle and everything, how you're composed.., decomposing body will fertilize the trees around it, matter cannot be created or destroyed. It's just, you know, it just changes form, just takes different shapes, so if you figure, whatever it is that makes up who you are right now your consciousness, your physical and your spiritual self. If you think of that energy, the GI, or the soul or whatever, going just, taking a different form. It's comforting. I'm cool to that.

Vivian: So, I'll have we all come to a consensus to become Buddhist monks and reincarnate ourselves?

Luke: No.

Daisy: No, but my question would be then, after you've done that complete cycle, if reincarnation is the deal, right. If you've completed your cycle, you've lived five hundred a thousand lives. How many lives you are supposed to live and you got to the point of complete enlightenment that Buddha was able to come to, then, what's nirvana?

Bow: I don't know, it's a band from Seattle.

Daisy: What happens after that, where do you go?

Bow: Well, that's the thing again, like what I was saying, we only have the capacity to think linear, where do you go? Where did we come from? We only go in a line.

Daisy: Well, that's exactly the thing that's the deal. You have to reach it to be able to compare yourself until you realize what that is supposed to be, I mean we have to go and experience it ourselves, I guess.

Daisy: I guess that answers it's own question. If you are completely enlightened then you'd know what nirvana was.

Luke: And I think that any description of what it could be would be limited by language. I think something that's so holy and so such this great thing, well, I mean, what could it possibly be, you couldn't comprehend it. Because you could experience it but it's like, you know, writing about art or something, it's like you're limited by language, you can't put it into words, it's just a purely ...

Vivian: Well, I mean if you put it that way, no, I hate to go often into this topic, but, take sex. I mean, you don't know it until you do it, and then you don't know what's it like to feel like, until you've felt a certain, you know, OK, degree of it.

Bow: Religion of Sex.

Vivian: It's like people say "hey, this tastes like this and this and this, if you've never tasted it before, no matter how much someone can describe it to you, you're not gonna know.

Luke: That's very tentative.

Daisy: O.K., then, we get to nirvana or you're gonna come back as something else, what would you like to come back as?

Luke: I don't think, I don't think of if in terms of this life's over, I'm gonna start a different life, or I'm a goat or whatever.

Luke: I guess it's changes I guess if I could choose something, yeah, a goat would be pretty cool.

Daisy: A goat, (Yeah) what about you?

Bow: I don't know, a goat, too, but here's a thing that I find the discrepancy in that reincarnation is, if that's the way it goes. How come we don't, except for like these Buddhist monks who are enlightened, remember any of this, what's the purpose of not remembering, why are we just reincarnated a hundred million times, but we can't use any of that experience.

Daisy: Maybe it's like, um I guess it's just like, if you pass go, you don't get two hundred dollars if you know what I mean, like you live one life, and then basically, you stuffed that one up, you made a lot mistakes. So, what you get is just an another chance.

Bow: But you don't know about it.

Daisy: You don't get the two hundred bucks...you know, when you pass go?

Bow: And then it's comes back to a scientific thing, or just you know, like my friend said, "Matter can't be created or destroyed'; right? So like just the energy is moving into something else, the energy doesn't have, actually, a sense of being, but it bes...

Vivian: I mean if you could remember all those experiences and then that way you can make better choice in the next life, then we would all be at a point of nirvana and enlightenment. There would be no point in living life, in a sense, right?

Bow: Not necessarily, because they say people with bad karma turn out to be bad things, and it just keeps going over and over again, until you break the cycle.

Vivian: So what happened to me?

Bow: Maybe.

Daisy: Because, because, that's what I think, the key to religions, you have to or spirituality, you have to at some point make that decision yourself. Oh, I've done something bad, and I know it's bad, then you break the cycle of karma, right? But if you already know when you're born you were given that information without,.., that would be the same as what churches tell you to do, right? This is wrong, don't do it, just don't think about why it's wrong, or why it's bad. We're telling you that it's wrong so therefore you can't do it. But if you have that information you are like, you're complete in your life and on your track and you are going somewhere, just like, oh well, that's right, I did that, and I'm not supposed to do that. But you have to be able to at some point, at that crossroads, make that decision yourself. I'm gonna go this way, I'm gonna go that way because of A and because of B.

Vivian: Well, haven't you had experiences in your life where, ok, I'm sure we've all had really big pitfalls, I've had times when I've gotten really sick, to the point, or not just sick and hacking and I have a cold. But you know, I felt really sick and I felt, like, wow it woke me up, like I don't wanna be drinking every night and you know, you're on a nice roll for about a month and of course you get back into that partying mode. But it's like a, you know my mother got really sick and nothing else is that is important anymore, it's kind of enlightens you, to a certain point, it only lasts so long. But still you hit moments in your life or there are experiences and times in your life where it kinda wakes you up so to speak. And you know, you don't necessarily need the church to enlighten you, life and the events that come along with it, it does that for you, and for people, for example, we hear about, like you know, dope addicts or alcoholics they, you know, have a point in their life where they're just really messed up and then they go to A.A. or the church for support. It's because they need a little more support where they can't handle it themselves but you know for all of us, we go through periods in our life where we are going through enlightenment everyday.

Daisy: Urn, personal growth.

Vivian: Right and experiences.

Luke: Yeah, I think it's probably the evolution thing that's where it's gonna continue. I think that it should be, because it is something that we share with other people too. Maybe that's what happens with the energy. It's not, it's not created or destroyed but maybe it's refined, it becomes more sophisticated. (Daisy: clarity) Yeah, we start becoming clearer as a species as a human, as a human community. I think that would be one of the, urn, one of the hopeful outcomes of our continued presence as a species.

Bow: But what do you know, you only use thirteen percent of your brain.

Vivian: Ok, but look.

Luke: Gotta start using more.

Vivian: But, I mean, look at us, were in, we're not middle-aged yet, we're still quite young. I mean, compare a child to us, and then compare an elderly person. You become life becomes sweeter for you the older you get they say. You're more mature, your mind is more mature, and when you speak to someone who's a little bit more older they seem nicer don't they? They seen more at ease, comfort with themselves and their life, they've come to more understanding of everything. They're not trying to, you know, fight against life like we are everyday... I mean, hopefully anyway we'll still, we'll be at that point when we get to their age.

Bow: Well, that's something that I believe in like why I'm starting to lean more toward reincarnation and the whole fact of that circle or that cycle. It's because when you think about what we know, and what are facts are, when you're a baby you're brought in new. And you don't really know anything and then you come to a peak which is almost like your life is a half circle. So it's like you're going up and hit your peak and then you become old and senile and you become like a baby again. That's life circle and then you go the other way around.

Vivian: I wasn't talk about going senile. I was talking about (Daisy: yeah... wisdom) wisdom exactly.

Daisy: Yeah, I do think that, that happens as you get older, if it doesn't, you know, it's bad luck for you. But you know, I think that's important, and I think that what makes us wiser is just life itself. Because, you live and you lose and all your losses. If you're not learning from them, then you don't gain the gift of the wisdom.

Luke: Things do go in a line, they effect, effect your future by the choices you make today, if you're an imbecile your whole life, you're not just all of a sudden gonna be an old wise person.

Daisy: Exactly.

Luke: And so religion is useful in that, in that it sort of gives you a reference point. Maybe something if you want to live a just life and stuff, you'll end up being a just person at the end of the day, at the end of your life time and stuff, and hopefully you'll have picked a couple of things up. But it's good to, I think it's useful in that, yeah it keeps people on a, keeps them on a pretty good, pretty good way to go, a pretty good path I guess.

Vivian: I got an A on this one paper in journalism class, and it was (Luke: Good for you) Well no. It's sorta has to do with this, like I was, everybody has their nice little topic. But I was, like I was just kind of trashing everything you know, why do we go to school, why do we go to elementary school, so we can go to junior high. Why do we go to junior high, so we can go to high school. Why do we graduate from high school, so we can go to college. Why do we graduate from college, oh, so we can work. Why do we work? So we can earn money for our families. Why do we earn money for our families, so we can die and give it, pass it on to our children, and grandchildren. And then so what is the point of life and why do you fight against life that whole time until you retire. And then when you retire you kind of relent to, you know, you're not fighting anymore, you kind of like give into life. You enjoy taking walks, you enjoy walking through the woods and smelling flowers and going back to nature, kind of going back to simplicity, and not so much going with society and complexity.

Bow: I know people who appreciated those things, now.

Vivian: Yeah...

Daisy: Well, that's what I hope to do, you know, like they're the values, the values that I see in teachers, wiser and older people than me. I try to live a life, it's not easy to live a life like that, but I try to.

Vivian: We say we live that life now, sure, but then living in a bustling city. How many times do you really look at the stars, how many times do you go for a hike, do you go for a hike? once a week? No, you don't, we are working all day. We are inside, we're not smelling the roses everyday, we go drinking every night instead, we smoke all day, and uh, we eat greasy foods all day, we're stuck in, dark, cold places and... (Luke: Sorry God, sorry God.) Yeah, exactly I'm saying.

Vivian: We don't really relent or give into life.

Luke: I don't know what you're doing a...

Bow: Nature boy.

Vivian: I can speak for all of you guys, it's true.

Luke: No it's not.

Daisy: No it's not.

Luke: No it's not at all.

Daisy: Well, having said that at least she said, brings me back to I guess my complete belief in what spirituality and religion is that it's very personal and what I do to make myself a spiritual person. At least, she thinks that wisdom and spirituality obviously come hand in hand and that, it is living a healthy life and doing these things. But the way I um you know, have a relationship with God and the way that I express my spirituality. Perhaps it's in a different way, that's a personal thing, and I believe that's the essence, what is your ideal of your relationship with God, and my ideal and everybody else's is a personal thing and that's come form within.

Vivian: Right, whatever you feel, if you have, you know, a nice understanding of, you know, what God means to you, or what, you know, happiness is to you.

Luke: Go with it.

Vivian: Exactly.

Bow: Yeah, I agree, but with everything that's been said, almost everything. I think that it is an inner thing an inner spirituality and if you can find that, I think you'll be ok, you know, and uh, you know just don't kill people, and ... don't rape and don't pillage you know, think of you how you would like to be treated yourself (Daisy: Sure) from other people.

Vivian: I think we all have an understanding of what good and bad is after you've lived a little bit. Everyone has done something bad and so, we all kind of, nobody really wants to live a bad life, we all wanna lead a good life and whatever is satisfactory to you, you know, go with it.

Daisy, Bow: Amen.

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