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2. 第3册2.Euthanasia A1的15分13秒到A面29分15.5秒结束的语音文本
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Cathy:
See part of me believes ..like
.... um that... maybe there is a God
...and maybe that... my life... was planned.
.. and I am here... for a reason ...and I was brought into
(Deb: A specific amount of time).... right,
... I was brought into... this world... to experience..
. all of the things ...that I'm going to... experience
....and death being...... part of it. (ah)
....and in that sense I would say that ....if I'm going to argue that ....completely... I would say that.... euthanasia.. is wrong, (ah)
....because ...it is my plan,
...the plan.. that was ..ordained... for myself. (ah)
...But again... I'm sitting in ...a comfortable position
...I'm not terminally ill,
.... I'm not going through pain (right )....so it's easy for me... to say that ...and I don't have a family ...member like that.
Deb:
(uh) But also like... I'm sorry.
(Bow: Oh, go ahead.) ...
.....No I was just gonna say ..ok even
...if you do believe in God,
.... God also gave you ....like (um)
...(like) the faculties ....to think of these.. things (right)
....and to come to.. these decisions.... and these thoughts come from somewhere. (yeah)
....And ..you know.. like if you do start ....to go down ..the avenue of ..like you know what,
....I think at this point ...I'm ready to die,.....
.... I don't.. want to go down.... this,, road (yeah).. of just like ..deteriorating ...and deteriorating.
.... And so somebody ..gave me these, ...if God created you.
.... He also created you.... with
.....the mental capability ....to come up with these ideas
... and make these decisions ..so, (ah)...(ah)
....I think that ...that's even an arguable point.... like.(ah).
.... maybe.. he wants me to.
... make this decision.. for myself and
....that's my ..lesson ...that ..I need to learn.
Cathy:
(that's) Yeah, ...that's quite possible.
Bow:
I would say a similar thing(ah)
...which is that you're talking about being
....pre- ordained or ....destiny and(ah)... what not ...
..... I mean.., ....what if our
....destiny was to be ...euthanaized,
....what if that.. was part of the plan?(mm) (ah)
....I mean you can never tell ....really until (Cathy: You can't.)
Luke:
(a or ...) Which is a good decision ...and which is not yeah...
Bow:
.Or... if you're supposed ....to live out your life naturally,
....does that happen ...or is the plug pulled,.... from...under...uh.
..when you're in coma
....y'know ...maybe..... talking about
...predestined plans
....I believe in.. predestined plans, (ah)
.....but I think... there's no... way to know (ah)
....what that ...would ever be until
.... maybe we get the answers... when we die I don't know.(right)
.... (Cathy: Right).... We just have to ...wait and see.(ah,...ah...yeah)
Luke:
And all the choices leading up
....to that one choice.. too.
....If .(if)...it's not ....your decision
...then ..were all the previous decisions (sion..)
.....and things you'd done ...previous to it, (what that yeah)
....would those ....have been negated too.
....would those have been faded too,
....were you in control of those parts. (ah)
....So why not .....be in control right up to the end(ah)
(Deb: Yeah...)
...and make the final, .(the final)..the greatest,
... you know, ....not the greatest decision.
Deb:
And possibly ...the most important..(yeah ,yeah) you know,
....or... like a certainly... significant one
...(Luke: Yeah.) ...you know.
Luke:
...That sort of like ..the period. ..(that)..The final punctuation ....on a long ...story or something, (ah)
....the final sentence kind of thing.... -- how does it end? ...You know.
Cathy:
(I) I'm definitely for... individual freedom, (ah)...
....and um... individual cases
.... like I don't ..think you... can say ok, yes, ....euthanasia is ok.
...(Deb: Right) ..( not too)
....all the time, ...a 100 %.
....But it's like... I believe that
....every single case.... you should be looked at differently,(mm)
..... like only you and your family
....and those around... you know your life(true that is.. )
... and if it's appropriate.. for you.
Luke:
A choice should made ..
..available ...to people though.
Bow:
You think by by
...(by) the Netherlands's.. legalizing
...it and ..saying
...people do have the choice to do it.
... That's ok,... they're saying,.(that if not....).
. the government is taking their hands.... off that side of things.
....And if people ....want yeah.., people from there,
.... that doesn't mean.. that
....if you're sick (right)...you're gonna die...... you gonna die,
we're gonna figure it out for you.
Deb:
I'm sure ...(yeah ,Im sure) ...that there's.. a lot of hoops
.... that you have to go... through to actually
.....to get to the point ..(yeah I think so ,yeah)
.....where you are even looked at
....to be like for consideration of like .....ok
.... now you can be... euthanized... if you want.
....You probably ...have to ....go through... so many hoops.
Luke:
It's very very strict ...right,.... like procedures(sure)
...you got to go through yeah like.
Bow:
We're.. talking about (um)
....earlier the ..financial ...aspect of it. (mm)
....Now.... again... hypothetically
....what if there .....were.(just).
.. funds made available ...to keep people alive.
Deb:
Like just.. like a kitty.(loke just.loke...)
Bow:
I mean no...yeah like just dogs
.... and cats too ..but people. (haha)....For example... people ..(haha,..).
Deb:
No, no, no. ...Like a kitty,
...like a pot of money
...(Bow: Oh...ok)
...(ok) whatever that's called.(hare..)(like akitty)
Bow:
A piggy bank? ...O.K. Carte blanche?...(haha...haha...).
..... But um.... no, ok, ...let's just say like(uh)
.... you know ....it was just free.
.. just um there's extra taxes.... to have people.
...(um).. like.. to keep them alive until
.....maybe there's a chance to.... find a cure ..or
..(or)..freeze them ..and put more money... into that. (ah)
....So ..then ....would you all.. agree.. that
....just in ...cases of
....where people are ..in extreme.. pain,
.... that they should be ..euthanized?
Luke:
Yeah.... I don't think anybody
....should (is) ..be able to do it.
.... Well actually I kinda do.
..I think ...(I think)..(no one)....no one should be able to say ....
....whether or not
....you can ..make this decision ( that's ...).
..over your own life, (that's right)...that's your life.
... (Cathy: No...) ....How can ..the government... take it
....upon themselves to say .....
....no.. we think you should be
....(you shoul be)...you should be.. hooked up(yeah,I grea for uh..)
.... to a life-support system ...for next five years.
Bow:
But I mean.. the people that.... are in comas,
....that can't make their own decisions.
Luke:
Yeah... that's.., ( yeah that's)
..(tht's more)..(that more)more or like
... the mercy killing kind of thing.
Cathy:
I believe that laws ....should exist in order to like,
....so people.. can be happy ...and not like.
......something should not ....be legal
....if it's going to... hurt... somebody else
...or ...themselves right. (ah)
....Following that line,
.... if you ....are terminally ill
.....and you're.. suffering ...a great deal of pain
.... and your family's.. suffering ....a great.. deal of pain
....it should be ok
... for you to ..end your life.
....Now ..whether.. or not ....you believe in God .
...or all these other things
......they might also.. come into play(right)
....when you're personally.. making that decision.
(Deb: Exactly) ( but the govermenr that ,yeah ....)..(but the goverment )..
...But the government shouldn't say ....this is not allowed. (yeah)
...I don't believe.... in that I believe,.... the least regulations ...as possible.(yeah)
Luke:
Yeah... there should be a.... window where
.... by people ..can empower.. themselves..(ah)
... at ..(at)that.. stage of the game I think.
....But of course .....you need also.. it also
....I think really.. freaks people out about it.
....I don't think... a lot of people ...have a problem
...with the main idea of ...people.. in that ...situation
.... (that) having ...the right to
... end their.. own lives.
.... But I (I) think.... worrying about
...opening the door a ...little bit more,
....you sort of let that ...go through oh ok then.
Deb:
And then ..what.., and then what (yeah..you just.)
... how much more.
Luke:
Yeah it sort of progresses and progresses..,
....and then anybody ....who wants
... like ah I got... a stomachache someone... kill me like.(haha...)
... But I ...guess.. that's where
...(the) ..the real issue ....sort of ..comes down...
...to is ..the whole.. love issue
....and.. people ..around you
.... and how they... would(the re ..re..) ..react to (if)
....that whole thing too.
.... I mean ....of course people.
.. aren't gonna be... happy with it
... if someone close to you is ...on the verge of dying. (ah)
...In most situations....
I think people ....would really
...have a problem ...with that.
Bow:
What?
Luke:
With...with..(make)...someone making the decision
.... to kill themselves (um)
...or making the decision... for them.
Bow:
(well)..What if they had a big.
.. life insurance policy,
... they might be happy.
Luke:
Well... see there ...yeah.... and there's..,
people kill each other...(for). for...(right) worse reasons.
....Yeah...people... who are doing really fine,
....they kill each other too,
... but that's the thing
...when you...when you
...make it sort of ...open like... that ..it sort of...
Deb:
Gives people... all the more reason ...(Luke: Yeah)
... people find all ...the more reason
...(Luke: Yeah) ...to be able to.
Luke:
People find an angle
... to euthanize somebody.
...I wanna euthanize.(ha)... this guy over here.
Deb:
He's annoying me.(ahah)
Luke:
Euthanize your ass.(haha)
Cathy:
(I am) I was reading about ....Buddhism the other day,
....and I heard this theory
....actually.. one of my students... told me this theory,
....about Buddhism... that um.... your children
...are people ....whom.. in your past life
.... (uh..)have really... helped you.
.. and now in this life ....you must help them.(mm)
.... And your husband ...or your wife
.... or somebody.. that you really hated.
... now in this life ....you must learn.. to love them.
... (Deb: Ah~)... Yes, interesting,
....and.. if it's true ..for example,
...let's say that.. your child ..
....is... very,... very.. ill
....and ..maybe they're ..gonna go
....through ...an extended period ..of time of suffering,
....and as a parent
...it is maybe your job in... this life
....to learn the lessons.
... that you must learn
...to take... care of ...that sick person. (ah)
...So in that.. case ...euthanasia... might not be...( an option) ...an option
Bow:
Um, so if you hate... your wife in this life,
...then the next life.(hahaha...).. you love her. (haha..)
Right?
Cathy:
Hopefully. ...Then you've accomplished... that lesson.
Luke:
You can't... euthanize... her.(now )(haha..)
Bow:
Damn!
Luke:
Not an option!
Bow:
Damn!!(haha..)
Luke:
What about ...(what about)with... parents,
... I think that the large
......the larger ...segment of people.... who are (mm)up... for this idea
....are the old folks
.... you know (ah)...and um...I mean.
.. if you look at ..the Confucian society... like Korea (ah)
....(uh) we were talking about.. it earlier,
.... the idea of ....differing... to older people(and and)
....and ...showing respect ..to older people.(right)
....... that doesn't really fit in to ....the whole idea of euthanizing
.... and.. killing off old people,.(mm)
... just because... they're not gonna be productive... to themselves
...and to the society anymore,(ah) ...is that...
Deb:
Goes against everything ...(Luke: Yeah)... that they really believe.
Luke:
(it's) Almost like.. yeah
..the opposite.... of the Confucian
...kind of ideal.(ah)
Cathy:
Well that ...kind of thing.
... has been happening in societies ...for.. ages like.
.. if you look at like ....anthropology
...for example ...you can see (or)...
....you know... in these forging.. societies.
... you know.... if a member is no longer (going) to
.......add to the society
....it's expected that ...they're going ...to be.. left behind.(ah)
.... And left .(fot love to )..to die. ....And that's considered...
Deb:
Is it ok.... is it because they're.... sick that they can't
...contribute anymore ...to their community ...or is.
.... it they just don't...they're lazy.
Cathy:
It could be ...that they are sick.
Deb:
Whatever,..(well).. they just put them up to...(.well.........)
Bow:
Oh no..... I think uma... lot of...um... Asian societies(ah..)
...as well as other societies, (ah)
.....were based urn.., they were (um) farmers (ah)
....and(um).. everything... was based around the farm
....so that's why ....traditionally they prefer sons
....because ..they can ..work on.. the farm ....and be more productive.
...So ...yeah.... it make sense (that)...that um...
....when someone becomes.
... non-productive(ah)... they would..,(ah)
.... in a.. traditional sense ....euthanize them.
.....And I've heard ...stories in.. Korea ...where they ...(they)have those urn..,
..... they used to take those.... A-framed.. backpacks(uh..)
....that they used to carry wood on
....and they put the... grandfather (uh)
.... on and they(yeah) bring him
....and just leave him in the woods.
...(Deb: Wow) ...Yeah, ...I mean ...what a way to go,(oh..)
.... just been left alone ...to nature.(yes)
Cathy:
Yeah that was ..considered... the way... to go, (yeah)
...and you know, ...your final ...sort of
...gift... to the ..society ..
....while ..are you gonna... keep pulling.... and pulling
....if you have no more..(mm) nothing to give....(Deb: To offer)
Luke:
We can counter.. that argument
...and say.... that we are not hunter,
....gatherer tribes anymore. (right)
.....We have.. technology everywhere,
.... we have these machines,
.....millions of dollars (oh you don't...)...and years of research...
Deb:
....You don't ...discard people
.... because they can't... physically(well) ...contribute..
.... or.. whatever even
....if they can't mentally, .
...like if they just can't ...contribute at all that
..... doesn't mean ..that they're just like (ha) (that ,now..)
... (Cathy: ....Maybe they have knowledge... as well ...that could be contributed.)
Bow:
That's kind of... how...um..,
that's how tradition ...works though.
.... Even though... in modern day ....society .
...where you have a... homogeneous ...society like ...Korea...
.... um... old traditions.. die hard... you know (uh)....(ah)
.... Some of the old.. traditions ...are still very..,
...(um).pervasive ...and... (Deb: ...Very evident)
....yes. in Korea ...(I mean)..the um...the whole thing about ....marriage
...and um.......having a son...
... is still here even ...in this modern day ...society.(ah) (ah)
Deb:
So.. ok... But they aren't... putting their
....ancestors... out to
...(or).pasture anymore ..sort of thing,
....you know ...I don't think... they're.. still doing.. that so...
....they've come ...y'know... they've moved,
....they progressed in ..some ways,(ah)
....and they're not doing ...that anymore so then.., (well, I think...)
...do you think .(uh)...that they might be they might lean
....toward euthanasia then?
Bow:
Um....
...maybe...(I think)
... (I) ...I think. in(um) ..traditional ...days.
.... It depended on.... class,
.....the class system, so ....the...(the) more money ..you had,
.... the more affluent... you were, ..
....the ..better.. mound you got (uh)
....with a ..better grave site ....and people
.. take care of it,
....whereas ..the poorer.. people.
... would, ...probably.... who worked on the farm
..that's all they had,.. that was their life, (would..)
....(um) you know.... take their grandparents out to the ...woods ...and leave them.
.... If that was my ...situation,.
... if .. (if) my family ..was um...
...of course ...you know,
...(they).they loved me,(and um...).... but they were poor, (ah)
....and I had say.... for example ....a life insurance policy,
....I would want them to... (ah)....take me out.
...Yeah..(mm).. I mean... that would benefit like.
... if say there's kids involved ..
...that would...they could live off of ...that (ah)
...and you know go into ...
...(Deb: ...Right,.
... rather than it all ...being spent.)
....on... yeah, (and..)me who (would..)....nobody knows ...what's gonna happen.
Deb:
Or they do know that .(yeah) ..
...you will die, ...y'know,.... they know that's coming.(yeah)
... What's the point ...putting money into?... (Bow: Exactly) (ah)
Luke:
The idea of also (that uh)....having a ....fund for
...(for) making lives last..(last) longer
...I think it's sort of ....where it's needed.
... I mean there's.... so many.. other things
... people ...who need to get... started on a life
..... and they're gonna have a... sub-standard life .(from)...from day one.
....Those.. (those) maybe are ....lives that we could improve on,
.... if you look at in more of ...a holistic sense..(right).
... of course you always.... have stronger loyalties to
....your family ..and your.. loved ones,
.... the people... who are close to you
...and so... if you ...had the money
....you're gonna put it... towards them (and)
...and their quality of life
...(Deb: ...But maybe.. we need to look more
.... at the community
..and things and)
...yeah..(OK). (and and)..and there's a ...global community ...as well.
.. it's like people... who had their time
...and it didn't quite... work out... for them maybe and
... they're sort of ..on their way ..out now
...and that's ...where(yas) it's sort of,
... yeah, the individual, .(mm)...if the individual actually... is saying
...I'm volunteering man
...(Deb: I'm ready to go) ..(I'm out of)...I'm out of it ...yeah...
Deb:
So then the money ....that
....almost would have been spent say .....
.....for the next ...following ..six months
....that would have.. kept them ...just.... barely alive
....or just barely ..comfortable
....that money could almost be ...put
... into ..the community ...or whatever to(mmmm...) jump start...
(Luke: Hopefully ...yeah)
....(yeah)..hopefully get ...some kids off... to a better start
... or something if they're..,
.... they're living.... below the poverty line ..or something...
.... that y'know ...you can save money (yeah)
...if it's about money. (ah)
...Y'know.... you can save money here
....and put it back ...into the community this way (mm)..or something.
Luke:
(and now) Often you have the families of someone.
... (who has what)...who has whatever disease it is..
.... and... there is no ..cure for it
...and that's why.. you're going out.
...The money ...that you would... spend to.. keep yourself
...alive could it make ..a fund to find a cure... for that disease. (right)
....Irradiate.. them one... by one.. in that way
...and do the ..greater good,
.... sort of take one for the team.
..... I think there's (I think ther's)...a lot of dignity in that.....
.... It's a very noble way to die.
.... I think...I think.., ....that would lend.. a great poetry to....to a death.
