听说大突破

[韩] 郑赞容 著   崔红姬 译
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千万别学英语 听说系列教材
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听说大突破
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HOW TO SPEAK BETTER

世界图书出版公司
世图音像电子出版社


中文版前言 （略）
韩文版前言
使用说明
本套教材的特点和使用方法

韩文版前言
　　世上有很多英语教材，有些在学习内容和学习方法上有类似之处，也有些差别很大。尤其是随着外语学习一定要听当地人们发音的说法深入人心之后，现在有不少英语教材都附上了当地人发音的录音带。
　　对边听录音带边学习教材能加倍得到学习效果的说法，没有人表示异议。因为，学习英语的最终目的大多都是想用英语自由自在地交谈，那么从这一点上看，录音带无疑是提高英语听力的划时代的商品。但是，我们又不能说听力好的人，口语也一定好。当然，如果有碰上英语圈国家的人，能与他们练习口语的话，当然是最好的方法，但是事实上并非那么容易。
　　本套教材基于郑赞容先生写的《千万别学英语》的学习方法，展现出了犹如当地人和学习者对话般的场景，达到了使读者能够自觉地练习口语的境地。如果读者读到本书的前半部里写的活用部分内容，就会了解到，当初郑先生是在何等艰苦的环境下将德语这堵坚固的墙攻了下来。进而使他们在学习英语方面也得到借鉴。
　　如果可能的话，请读者们尽量不要看后半部分里的录音原文，因为在没有充分，反复听录音带的状态下，看录音原文会妨碍您提高听力和会话能力。出于这一目的，本套教材本来没有附带录音原文，但是由于众多读者虽然非常欣赏郑赞容先生的英语学习方法，但为自己的学习成果无法得到证实而烦恼。在读者们不断打来的电话的情况下，我们的工作实在无法进行，才不得不向郑先生提及了公开录音原文的事情。
　　可是，郑赞容先生却一口回绝了这一请求。但是随着录音带的卖出读者要听力原文的电话更加多了起来，面对读者们的想法和要求，我们编辑部经过几个月的努力终于说服了郑赞容先生，同时使这套带有听力原文的新版本得以顺利出版。
　　当初制作录音带时，为了把当地人在日常生活中的习惯性语言和说话的语气原封不动地录下来，在没有录音原文的情况下进行作业的，所以本录音原文也出自录音带，就是说听力原文是通过录音带整理出来的。可能读者在听录音带时也能觉察到，并非每个当地人说话都流畅，都符合语法或者一点停顿都没有。我们编辑部为了活生生地展现这会话当中可以出现的“错误”，尽可能没有修改录音内容，而只是换成了文字。郑先生不用说，就连我们编辑部也希望读者把听力原文作为证实自己学习成果之用，而且希望只用一次。最后，再次希望录音原文成为遗真正想学好英语的人所遗忘的角落。

使用说明
  本套教材的用途：
1. 配合《千万别学英语》的学习方法，帮助学习者提高英语听力以及口语表达能力。
2. 为那些即使懂英语语法但不能脱口而出、想逾越英语听说关的人所设计。
3. 高质量的录音带给具有中级英语水平的学习者们提供地道的、原汁原味的英语“原声大本营”。
4. 如果是初学者，当然不能只用该教材来结束你的英语学习。但是，若用本教材亲身“体会英语”，那么您以后的英语学习速度将至少提高十倍。


本套教材的构成：
　　共分为3个系列，每个系列均有1本小册子，2盒录音带，按题材不同分类。
《听说大突破――1》

1. 爱情和婚姻； 2. 堕胎、性教育

《听说大突破――2》

1. 艺术、文化； 2. 宗教、哲学

《听说大突破――3》

1. 学生时代、工作； 2. 安乐死
1.每盘磁带六十分钟的录音带共三套，由四位人物出场，共同对一个主题进行六十分钟的讨论，讨论内容仅供语言学习用，并不代表出版者观点。
2. 初、中级学习者可以在三套中任选一套开始学习。
3. 如果您想挑战 TOEFL 、 GRE 、 TOEIC 以及 IELTS 考试，那么请您按磁带上标的顺序来学习，这样会使学习效果更显著。

【《听说大突破（3书6磁带） 》图书目录】

Contents   目录

Part 1 从一般会话到畅所欲言的经历
1. 熟悉的词汇+简单的句型=口语表达的最佳方式？
2. 仅用简单的词汇不能完全表达我的思想。
3. 突然交给我做的主题发言课，让我经历了一次难忘的时刻……
4. 初次体验“舌头说话”的经验。
5. 学外语只要勇气就够了吗？
6. 即使流畅地说出日常用语，也不见得能应付有水准的对话。
7. 原来，还有特别的句型等着我去学。
8. 集中背育“论坛式句型”。
9. 突破开口关在于试着多说。
10. 工作之余通读报刊给我的帮助。
11. 嘿！讲义竟如此清晰入耳！
12. 畅所欲方，对学外语的人真是可望不可及吗？
13. 留学三年的学生和留学十年的学生口语水平竟然相当……
14. 如果你整天埋在外语里，那么即使你不练习也会有长进。
15. 集中培训新来的留学生。
16. 总算明白口语是怎样进步的。
Part 2 学外语的几个误区
1. 学外语如同幼儿学说话一样，真是这样吗？
2. 简单的语言背育再多，口语也不容易提高。
3. 幼儿的能力和成人的能力是不同的。
4. 成人不能像幼儿一样吸收外语的原因是什么？
5. “暴露在外语环境里”――这一观点有缺陷。
6. 成人学外语应该有他们自己的标准。
7. 为了说得更好，需要反复听人讲。
8. 归根结底，能讲得最好的语言也是最常听的语言。
9. 成人要熟悉地表达成人的想法。
Part 3本套教材的特点和使用方法
1. 能进一步提高您的语言组织力的“千万别学英语”《听说大突破》系列。
2. “心――脑――舌”三个阶段的过程转化成“心――脑/舌”两个阶段的过程。
3. 开始这套教材的最佳时机。
4. 请任选此教材中的一盘磁带开始学习。
5. 处在欲“脱”非“脱”时期，若采用特别的并行措施见效会更快。
Part 4 录音原文
1.Jobs and Education
  Side A
  Side B
2.Euthanasia
  Side A
  Side B

PartⅠ

          从一般会话到畅所欲言的经历

1、熟悉的词汇 + 简单的句型 = 口语表达的最佳方式？
　　我曾经在多特蒙德接受语言课程，当发现自己终于能够听懂讲义的时候真是欣喜若狂。我甚至能以自己坚实的语法基础为资本，像个主角一样地去帮助来自其他国家的连最简单的语法问题都不懂的同学。而对于一个月前几乎还是一个哑巴的我来说，这是一个多大的进步啊！
　　但这种欣喜劲并没能维持多久，我再一次陷入苦闷的状态。因为我发现，一到讨论课我还是张不开口。而其他国家的同学即使在不懂什么语法，也不理解难懂的词汇的情况下，也能神奇地在讨论课上大声嚷嚷，这真让我费解。
　　其中最牛的是一个被同学们称作“帅哥”的加拿大男孩。因为他长相好，所以只要他一经过就会有不少女孩子的眼光追随着。可能正因为是这样，他的底气就特别足。当他初次出现在语言班上的时候，他的德语实力用一句话概括就是零。我之所以这么说是因为他连自我介绍都做不了。但没过几天，他就能在讨论课上发言了。当然语法很糟糕，但语言组织却非常流畅，就是说在发言的时候不会出现结结巴巴的情况，可谓“口若悬河”，因为他只运用自己最熟悉的词汇。
　　由于他的词汇都很简单，同学们似乎并不在意他说什么，只是觉得好玩儿。但不知从何时起，同学们看他的眼神充满了羡意。因为同学们发现，他的语言确实很流利。我觉得这太不可思议了。我就问他：“你的德语怎么有这么大的长进啊？有什么秘诀吗？”
　　“我没用什么特别的方法，自己就学会了。只是经常在宿舍里做做晚饭，和同学们聊聊天，就学会了。所以没觉得有多难。”
　　“我就是说不出来。虽然我很擅长语法和阅读理解，可口语就是没长进。”
　　“你说的太难了，我简直听不懂你说的话。”
　　我说的话让人太难懂了？瞬间有个念头在我头脑中闪过：对了！这家伙说的话题都是些特别简单的。而且他说的大部分都和主题不相关。这难道就是他的秘诀吗？！是啊，不管什么事情可以复杂地说出来，也可以简单地说出来！

2、仅用简单的词汇不能完全表达我的思想。
　　从第二天起，我就开始集中探索其他同学说话的方式。果然，他们说话也只是用最简单的词汇。我又惊奇地发现，他们只是反复使用五六个句型，并且有人在想不起该怎么表达的时候只是一遍遍地重复weisst du（德语，相当于英语的you know，啊、嗯），有时候甚至十遍二十遍地重复来继续自己的话题；还有的人把zum Beispiel（德语，相当于英语的for example，例如）当成药方的甘草。“来吧，让我也试一下吧！”我也像他们一样开始把甘草一样的句型用在各种话题当中。说话的味道确实跟以前不一样了，而此前，我所表达的语言大概只能被人当成念课本。但没过多久我又碰壁了，我那调料一样的句型不能完整地表达我头脑里产生的想法。

3、突然交给我做的主题发言课，让我经历了一次难忘的时刻……
　　有一天，老师带来一份简报给我，文章的标题是“日本和韩国的关系”。老师对我说：“赞荣，你能否对这篇文章做一下解释说明呢？”当时，我真是非常难堪。这个话题怎么是我一时半会儿就能解释清楚的呢？更何况，我对我的口语还没有信心，所以最先想到的是躲掉这难堪的场面。我说：“这个问题，怎么说呢，历史太悠久了，恐怕不能用简短的语言说清楚，所以还是以后再找时间谈吧。”“那么，你能不能以这个为主题发表一次演讲？大约用九十分钟，一个小时用于演讲，三十分钟解答质疑，如何？还可以吧。给你一个星期的时间做准备，差不多吧。”
　　他说完后还没等我同意就跟同学们公布说：“下周赞荣将发表一个演讲”。
　　上帝！那天晚上，我对着那份简报整夜发呆……
　　用德语说话从来都没有超过5分钟的我怎么可以演讲60分钟，又怎能应付30分钟的同学的提问呢？而且这哪里是一般的主题呀！对于韩日关系，即使用我的母语讲解也因牵扯到各种条约呀，大院君的闭关锁国政策呀等等，都需要事先缕一遍关于当时乱世的历史资料呢。更何况是用德语！
　　我躺在床上辗转反侧，想来想去最终决定先用韩文做一个充分的准备，然后再翻译成德语。并且讲演的时间要延长到80分钟，这样解答质疑的时间就只剩下了10分钟，也就是说我就不会太难堪了。只要按照这样的计划就会万事大吉了。
　　第二天我就开始写提纲，可是学校的图书馆里没有韩文的历史资料，我不得不翻阅德语的资料。我花了三个晚上的时间把查到的资料用韩德、德韩词典打成了韩文的底稿。然后又用了三天把韩文译成了德文。所以用来背诵德文稿子的时间就剩下一天了。那晚我对着镜子反复背诵几乎整夜没睡。
　　仔细想想，就是用韩语我都很少有过当着这么多人的面演讲的经历啊！

4、初次体验“舌头说话”的经验。
　　第二天，我睡眼惺忪地走到了讲台上。紧张得都不知道把视线停在哪儿。手好像也是多余的，不知道放在哪儿才好。最终用颤抖的声音开始了我的演讲。万事开头难，大概过了一两分钟我就渐渐镇定了下来。可就在那时突然有个平时话多的埃及男孩儿举手了。我的脑袋好像被人用拳头击了一下，随后用“请听完演讲后再提出疑问”把他给挡了回去。可老师竟然向他点了点头示意他可以提问题。于是那个男孩儿装出一副很严肃的样子问：“日本和韩国的距离有多远？”顿时，我想他在我旁边我一定会打他一顿，傻瓜，连这个都不知道！“很近。”说完后，我刚要继续背诵我的稿子。他又提问了：“能不能告诉我具体数字？”
　　哎哟，这小冤家！“坐飞机用一个小时，坐船大约十个小时。”我含糊地回答。我想回到刚才的主题上时，却不知道该从哪儿说起了，只觉得从头到脚直冒冷汗。没办法，就这么来吧。于是我想起什么就说什么。但奇怪的是，我一这么想，反而更清晰地想起了稿子的内容。那个时候，我才初次体验“舌头在说话”。
　　不知过了多久，我的演讲结束了。因为在演讲期间已经有人提出了问题所以就不需要再单独解答质疑了。课间我喝着咖啡松口气的时候有个美国男孩走过来对我说：“Gut gemacht！”（德语，相当于英语的Well done，非常棒。）

5、学外语只要勇气就够了吗？
　　以后的一个月里，我的口语考试几乎全免了，就这样完成了我的语言课程。当初那个连话都说不好的家伙在不到五个月的时间里，笔头考试不用说全科满分，连口语考试也都pass了！在老师们眼里韩国学生教起来是最头疼的，因为在整个语言课程期间，韩国学生们的沉默是出了名的。所以对我取得的成绩老师们都感到很惊讶。语言课程为期六个月，韩国学生往往需要读三次语言课程，所以我理所当然的成为了多特蒙德大学韩国留学生的骄傲。很多新来的留学生都来向我询问关于语言课程考试的事情。我也兴致勃勃地传授着我的经验。
　　新的课程终于开始了。至今我还能回忆起第一天上课时的情景：阳光非常明媚，天气出奇的好，而我却再一次陷入无边的失意之中――因为我根本听不懂老师在讲什么。
　　教授没有停顿地讲了90分钟，有多少生词不用说，班上的德国同学们在上课时的提问又快而且发音也不像语言课程时那样清晰，以致在我听来就好像是另一个国家的语言。到底是怎么回事？这太荒唐了。
　　恐怕这才是真正的德语吧。我在语言课程期间学的都是些“死”的知识。可能是专门为外国人编写的简单的德语吧，因为我几乎看不懂电影电视剧，也就只能这样想了。
　　不管怎么说，我必须想出对策。但不知如何是好。动动脑筋吧！
　　首先，我每天上课前提早去教室争取做到了最前排，跟那些学习好的同学接近。因为我想，在德国学习好的同学肯定也坐最前排吧。然后打算借他们的笔记看。虽说听不懂老师的讲义，但笔记抄好后拿回宿舍再多查查词典应该可以赶上进度了吧。在这样的作战方针下，我同时还认真研究了教授给我推荐的书籍。就这样，不懂的生词一个个被我征服了。结果整整一个学期我都在与困乏作战。
　　您想想，如果一天里饱受四五次90分钟的讲课，而且每节课对你来讲都是很难理解的内容，你认为这个时候还有什么能比睡眠更有诱惑力呢。而我不得不坐在大教室的红色椅子上，艰难而又顽强地抵抗侵袭而来的困倦，那困倦就好像在外面冻了一天后回到家里躺在热抗上一样，浑身都觉得暖洋洋。由于我学的那个专业里只有我一个韩国人，所以如果我在课堂上睡着了，那在外人看来肯定就意味着是整个韩国在睡大觉。

6、即使流畅地说出日常用语，也不见得能应付有水准的对话。
　　我采取了所有能顶住困倦的方法。火柴梗支起眼皮法、掐大腿、喝咖啡、吃巧克力等等。后来到了夏天，我甚至动员我的想象力来联想同桌女孩性感的穿着以及更加美好的事情……，但是有时所有这些方法都无济于事。当我发现自己在九十分钟的课堂里竟有一半时间都是在瞌睡中度过时，我难过得不知如何是好。只觉得脑子里嗡嗡做响……。
　　就这样，无奈地度过了大半个学期。直到有一天遇到一个上语言班时认识的朋友，当时他正在咖啡厅与一位德国学生认真地讨论什么事情。我记得他上语言班的时候成绩并非十分优秀，可这次发现他的德语太好了。我坐在他们旁边都听呆了。于是我想再好好听听，我倒不是在意他们讲什么内容，而只想查看他的口语到底流利到什么程度。
　　人家说得确实流畅。讨论的话题虽是日常小事，但他的口语几乎是无可挑剔。不知不觉中我开始用嫉妒和羡慕的眼光看他，这时旁边的德国学生突然跟我搭话：“你从哪里来？”“我从韩国来。（大韩民国的名称用德语叫Suedkorea，用英语是South Korea。）”
　　“恐怕你们国家也有分隔的痛苦吧？”
　　“是啊，离散家族，理念的不同，大规模国防预算，等等都不是容易解决的问题吧。”
　　这时，语言班上认识的朋友说道：“喂，讲点简单的话题吧。我实在听不懂你们在讲什么，太难了。”
　　怎么？他的口语那么好，竟然听不懂我的话？我正诧异地看着德国同学时，他正跟韩国同学说：“以你现在的德语水平，还很难谈论高难度话题。但你必须要学会它，那样才能顺利通过设计讲解。”
　　原来，他们是建筑专业的学生，他们接受一定程度的设计课程之后，每个人都要做一个对自己设计的东西进行讲解的发表会，到那时如果做不好，就会被一些尖锐的提问搞得很难堪，甚至会砸锅。
　　顿时，我在朦胧中看到了一线希望，我忙问道：“你们的那个设计发表会，我可以去听吗？”“当然，大概过一个月就开始吧。”

7、原来，还有特别的句型等着我去学。
　　建筑学专业发表设计的会场充满有如战场的紧张气氛，我进去时发表会已经开始了。每个同学都把自己设计的画面展放在制图台上，只要有人举手提问，相应的台上主人就要面对台下众多的观众――做讲解。虽然形式上还算自由，但进行讲解的同学们个个满头大汗，可能是被教授的提问给难住了。
　　他们用的德语又有所不同。词汇和句型比较简练，可以说有一种特有的讲解式的格式在里头。首先，频繁使用wenn…dann…（德语，相当于英语的if…，如果）。这种语法在德语语法中属于较难的一类，称作接续用语。可德国的学生却能运用自如，真让我吃惊！
　　而且他们的讲解像专家在演说一样，听起来非常讲究，显然是有过多次经验的老手。作为大学一年级第一学期学生，他们的设计讲解竟能做得如此漂亮，真是后生可畏哦！
　　它们似乎很擅长，也很熟悉讲解、提问和讨论的形式。有时，这种时间甚至超过两个小时，可他们当中没有一个急着结束的人，而始终如一地保持着用严谨的态度和精炼的语言来陈述自己的主张。回家时，我在想“这才是我首当其冲要学的，而德语日常会话是其后啊”。

8、集中背诵“论坛式句型”。
　　我首先注意到设计发表会上他们多次使用的几种句型。比如说，“以我的建议……”或“以我的观点……”这一类陈述自己主张的开头语和跟它连上的“虽然可以看作……但是……”之类的中间连接词，还有“最终……”、“终究……”、“总体来说……”一类的引导综合或引导结论的连接词。收集了将近50个这类连接词的我，虽然还没搞清他们的用途，以及他们之间的差异，但还是决定先把它们背下来。
　　一方面，每到课间休息时间，我就努力跟德国同学试做对话。但没那么容易，他们总是忙得有事干，而我背熟了的那些句型还没等被我用上，谈话的对象早已经离开了。
　　没过几天，不知为什么我总感觉同学们好像都在躲着我。于是我注意观察别的韩国学生是怎么和德国学生融洽相处的。他们的谈话虽然十分轻松，但是他们闲聊起来的时间竟能持续半个甚至一个小时。“是否还是应该先从练习会话开始呢？”流利的口语确实诱惑着我。“如果我的口语也能像他们那么流利我也会有信心和他们开心玩耍”。
　　假期到了，我也该回斯图加特打工去了。我再没办法期待乡土奖学金了。剩下的那么一点儿钱也被隔壁的韩国学生借走后逃到美国去了。

9、突破开口关在于试着多说。
　　我到斯图加特的那天，就在一个老乡的帮助下开始在奔驰工厂上班了。他是我在韩国时的一个高年级校友，四年前来到了这儿。有一天他带我到宿舍区的一个韩国学生家里。这些人好像经常聚在一块儿。但有一个德国朋友坐在一个角落里，只是呆呆地看着我们说话。因为我们说的都是韩语。我真不知道他坐在这儿还有什么意思。我觉得有点过意不去，所以凑上前去用德语跟他搭茬。“懂韩语吗？”“不懂。”“你不觉得没意思吗？”“有一点儿，还可以。”
　　“我给你翻译好吗？”“那敢情好。”我当着韩国同胞的面说德语的时候有点儿不自然，但不管怎么说把一个德国人撂在一旁说韩语总是不够礼貌的，所以我开始低声地给他翻译。谈话主要都是些关于威士忌、白兰地、干邑这些洋酒不同的酿造方法、以及和白酒的不同之处诸如此类的话题。因为都是比较专业性的，所以翻译起来感觉有点儿困难。我的翻译再差劲也总比没有强吧，我带着这种想法认真地翻译着。没想到这个德国男孩居然听明白了我的翻译而十分高兴。回家的路上，我的高年级校友说道：“你的德语很不错啊！来这儿也没多长时间嘛。”

10、工作之余通读报刊给我的帮助。
　　第二天上班与同事一块儿吃早饭的时候，我居然很自然地说出德语来了。他们大部分都是外国人，沟通虽然不成问题，但若是要自由地谈论各种话题依然感觉很困难。可是话还要多说才能有长进啊。大概是工厂里工友们德语水平太差的原因，使我有信心在这打工的一个多月期间，不受拘束地发挥出自己的语言组织水平来。这样，口语有了些长进但这还是不够的。再说还要挣钱吃饭，也没有多余的时间总练口语，最终只能抽空去通读报纸。一个月就这样过去了。

11、嘿！讲义竟如此清晰入耳。
　　又一个学期开始的那天，我拖着打颤的双腿，进了教室，一个多月来在工厂打工的劳累足足让我病了十天。
　　久病痊愈的我听课竟如此清晰入耳，真是奇妙无比，为什么会出现这种事情呢？
　　仔细一想，原来是《明镜》周刊的功劳。通读杂志扩大了我的词汇量。
　　我的阅读理解能力也比前一学期大有长进了。信心使我立即投入到了参考资料的阅读。有一次看得太入迷了，连图书馆关闭时放的广播都没听见。那时，我才觉得我的留学不会失败。对我来说听力和阅读理解已经不成问题了。现在只剩下口语和笔记，我坚信那也只是时间问题。我终于有信心搞好我的课题研究了。于是，我申请了两个课题做研究。

12、口若悬河的口语再次遇到挫折。
　　我所在的研究小组，一共有六个人。除了我都是德国学生。他们都是第三个学期的学生而且都很直率。第一次开会的时候我们各自做了自我介绍，然后马上进入讨论，但并非我想象的那么简单。我想用于讨论而背下来的那些句型都来不及说出来。他们争相表达着自己的观点，等我把话准备好了我已经没法挤入他们的讨论了。我又茫然了。
　　他们三个小时的唇枪舌战使我的脑子处于高度紧张的状态。回家的路上，我沮丧极了。这个时候我该怎么办？
　　如果这样下去必将削弱我们小组的整体实力，动动脑筋吧。
　　最后我决定去当小组的打字员。刚开始的时候我觉得有点儿没面子，可是我的口语确实表达不出我的实力，既然这样我还不如为小组做好我的打字员呢。这样一想我就觉得欣慰多了。
　　第二次开会大家听说我要打下手的时候都很高兴。他们打字看来像老鹰抓食儿一样。正好我用打工挣来的钱买下了一台电子打字机。要知道那可是我的第一大宝贝呀。这样一来我们的小组可以说是威力无比了。

13、畅所欲言，对学外语的人真的是可望不可及吗？
　　六个多月的研究期间，我因为要担任详细记录其他人谈话的任务所以没能说上几句话。有一次他们在讨论的时候偏题偏得实在太远了，我不得不反驳了。对方一流的口才和我笨拙的表达进行了一场热战，结果可想而知。
　　我只好跑到写字板前画了个图表来表达我的观点。直到那时，才有个同学站起来，说看了我的图表才明白我的意思，并表示同意我的观点。我们的课题终于反映了我的观点。我虽然在争论中赢得了胜利，但还是高兴不起来。畅所欲言对外国人来说难道真的是可望而不可及吗？再过两三个月我来德国就已经快一年了，照这样下去，就算过了十年我的德语会不会仍然如此呢？
　　是啊，在德国二十年来一直边打工边过日子的同胞们德语都不怎么样，更何况我呢？毕竟他们上班的时候每天都有至少8个小时的语言环境啊。那么我再怎么努力都会有一个极限。

14、留学三年的学生和留学十年的学生口语水平竟然相当……
　　从那时起，我就开始观察韩国留学生是怎么学习口语的。留学三年以上的韩国学生在听力上基本没问题，（但和韩国人讲话时他们大多数不愿意用德语说）但若仔细听他们讲话就会发现，他们口语的好坏和来的年限几乎没多大关系。要知道他们在德国住的时间的长短，那就得看他们说话时用多少个weisst du夹在自己的话题中来。来的年限越长，他们的话里weisst du越多，甚至有人说的weisst du比自己想说的话还要多，这使对方没办法再听下去，只好替他把话说完，所以对这种人来说，如果德国人不提前理解它们的意思的话就很难自己完成一句话。
　　这种水平的口语实力说日常用语不成问题，但若想把自己的思想有逻辑并且很系统地表达出来就不是容易事了。从这一点来看，留学三年的和留学十年的几乎差不多。总之，要想介入高层次的话题谈论或对话当中，就必须接受特殊的训练，但不知道该是什么样的训练，直到放假时我还没找到那个“特殊训练的方法”。
　　我再次回到了斯图加特，奔驰工厂还是把我安排在以前的那个车间。这回我决定阅读《明星》杂志，因为与《明镜》周刊相比，该刊阅读起来更容易，估计会有益于口语的练习。
　　半年前认识的那些工友还在原来的岗位上工作，我拉近了和他们的距离，也能与他们长时间谈话了。看来我上学期尽管没说几句话，但我的会话还是有一些进步的。六个星期的打工生活就这样过去了。

15、如果你整天埋在外语里，那么即使你不练也会有长进。
　　新学期里我还要完成两个课题。一周里有三天要参加课题小组会议，我照旧给小组打下手。加上我选了两个学期的课程，所以平均每天有六个小时被埋在德语世界里。
　　回到家以后还得阅读教授们推荐的参考书，所以我说德语的机会比起上语言课的时候明显减少了。而对课题的评讲最终是口头进行的，所以我有些担心我的成绩被口语牵连。虽然我也想过私下里让德国同学考核我，但我的自尊心不允许我这样。我的德语虽差可却是专业课学的时间最长的一个。
　　我因过度的紧张和担心几乎整个晚上没睡着觉，但幸运的是我顺利地通过了第二天的考试。德国同学们好像习惯了这种谈论式的考试方式。评讲会终于很自然地结束了，后来他们还在附近的啤酒Bar里开了个Party。
　　从调查到写出研究报告的六个月时间里组员们齐心协力使我们变得更亲密了。我们从考场上的紧张气氛谈起，没完没了地变换着谈论的话题。随着夜深我们谈到了个人问题。有人问我：“郑，你的话一直都这么少吗？”“嗯――不是这样，是因为我的德语水平还不能够让我完整表达我的想法。”“不是的，你的德语相当好，比我认识的任何一个外国人说的都好。”
　　也许是吧。但我并不仅仅满足于比一般外国人好一点，我希望我的德语实力可以和德国人雄辩。

16、集中培训新来的留学生。
　　前一个学期以对课题的最终评讲告终，随后的暑假里我为应付全科目的考试而忙得焦头烂额。三个月的假期只剩下半个多月的时候我已经通过了七门考试。分数虽然不尽人意，但这个在韩国不被认可的专业被我只用一年零六个月的时间就毕业了也挺不容易的。
　　有一天我突然发现，校园里又来了很多韩国留学生。他们当中的大部分人是为准备语言考试而来的。他们大都坐在图书馆里翻着语法书和德韩词典，为自己提高不了的德语而烦恼。帮助他们的想法在我头脑中闪过，正好我还有空儿，于是我向他们提出了一个月的集中训练方案。不只是为了传授我的经验，也是为了证明我的经验具有普遍意义。虽然这在他们是个相当大的冒险但还是有十个同学决定和我背水一战。
　　语言考试由语法、阅读理解、听力测试和口语四大部分组成。我着重于韩国学生薄弱的环节――听力和口语每天进行了六个小时左右的强化训练。
　　在最初十天里还不适应我方法的同学，他们的德语实力到了第三周及开始有了明显的提高。到第四周的时候除了一两名同学外其他人应该都能通过考试了。
　　考试那天终于来临。十名学生全部通过笔试。这真是一大胜利。可对于口语考试我就没那么有信心了。因为他们的水平还处于不很理想的阶段。最终结果是只有一个人没通过，这个结果还算让人满意。因为在这之前，韩国留学生经过半年的预言课程后，考试合格率仅在20%左右。

17、总算明白口语是怎样进步的。
　　初次成功的试验也给我带来了极大的转机。帮着他们准备语言考试的时候，我才发现我自己的德语也有了不小的进步。
　　新学期开始的那天，我在咖啡厅偶然遇见了一个上学期同一课题小组成员――德国同学，跟他聊天的时候发现自己居然说得很溜。
　　随便聊了两个多小时后回家时，我仔细想了想。我这儿出了什么奇事儿了？给新来的韩国学生做集中培训班时，我反倒说了很多久违了的韩语，可是现在怎么会感觉德语有提高呢？
　　那天晚上正看着电视呢，刚好播放辩论节目。我正听主持人和辩论方对主题你一句我一句辩论的时候，奇怪的事情发生了。还没等他们开口，我的脑海里闪现出讨论用的管用型语句。如，“以我的想法……”、“用他们的观点说……”、“从那种观点上看虽然有道里……”、“比什么都重要的是……”等。
　　“对了，就是这么回事！”我拍了一下大腿。这时，我好像才明白如何提高口语实力了。

Part2
                           
                                      学外语的几个误区
1、学外语如同幼儿学说话一样，真的是这样吗？
　　“要像幼儿学说话一样学外语。”这句话被接触外语的人们炒做得很厉害，那么果然是这样吗？
　　大部分的语言学教材正立足这个观点，主张：“像幼儿学母语一样，先多练练简单的话。”说这才是学外语的正道。从客套话，自我介绍等出发，进一步学习这是什么，那是什么，你住那里，哪个学校毕业等等简单的句子。就着就产生了换着练习指示代名词、疑问代名词，前置词，副词的学习方法。
　　就这样，几乎所有的教材都主张通过揭示各种题型的模范答案，使人们变个法儿反复练习，使其达到背熟的地步。用韩国话加以解释并添加语法说明的方法也是大部分会话教材无法漏掉的主要调料。
　　那些教材最近书名虽然变得更吸引人、封面设计得更华丽、书里页面色彩更丰富，但却依然固守着“多记，多背诵，就能说好外语”的主张。
　　可事实真的是这样吗？正像他们主张的那样，尽可能多背诵多熟悉简单的文章就能说好口语吗？

2、简单的语言背诵再多，口语也不容易提高。
　　不少人说，“多背、多记，就能说好口语，”我看倒不见得。以前我读大学的时候，周围有不少能背熟上千个英语单词的人。但是其中竟没有一个口语好的人。
　　后来在德国遇到过的外国人，以及在美国认识了的口语相当棒的外国人也没有一个用背熟的句子来说话的。也就是说，说外语流畅的人绝对不是用背诵的句子。
　　仔细想想，我们的母语也一样。在我们当中有谁会为了能流场地说出韩语而去背诵用韩文写的文章呢？
　　就是对这种事实的忽略导致了我国现在的外语学习陷入了误区。

3、幼儿的能力和成人的能力是不同的。
　　有的教材声称要像幼儿学说话一样学外语并不是主张多说“简单的语言”，而是要求多熟悉语言的句型。“语言就是句型”、“只要熟悉基本的句型，话就自然而然会说了”，这就是他们的理论。
　　如果细心观察幼儿学说话的过程好像真的是这么回事。因为它也有我们在语法书上看到的一样有着由易至难的过程。因为孩子们由名词、代名词、动词、形容词……等基本词性开始学起，经过动名词、否定词，到最后还要学到的时态和假设句。在这个整个过程中他们从来不问为什么，而只是乖乖地跟着学而已。其结果，只要换上词汇就能显示出其卓越的讲话能力。
　　但是这些教材忽略的事实恰恰是，成人即使这么模仿着学也不容易成功。如果成人也都像小孩子一样不问为什么只是一味地能够跟着学，那该有多好啊！
　　照他们所说学完句型，背句型，就自然而然能说出来，人们可以试一下即便是背好的句型也并非那么容易上口。我曾经用德语试过，但当我想说话的时候那些句型都搅在一起，有时我甚至感觉还不如不背句型好呢。

4、成人不能像幼儿一样吸收外语的原因是什么？
　　既然第一个方法（先背诵简单的语言）不合适，第二个方法（多背诵句型）也行不通的话，那么成人以幼儿学话的方式来学外语是不是根本不可能了？
　　幼儿和成人的差别在于幼儿一点语法知识都没有而成人有着丰富的语法知识；幼儿在边看边听的过程中学语言，而成人在边读边分析的过程中学习。
　　以上差异来看，成人再怎么想要学习幼儿的学习方法，都只能是徒劳。因为成人的头脑里已经充满着“非幼儿水准的知识”。

5、“暴露在外语环境里”――这一观点有缺陷。
　　这一观点里提到的“像幼儿学话一样学外语”是指最大限度地暴露在外语环境里。这一观点看起来有强大的说服力，因为孩子们毕竟是在洪水般的语言环境里学会说话的。
　　但是只要观察在国外生活的同胞们的情况，就马上能发现这一观点的破绽。既然作为在国外生活的他们，处在的也是洪水版般的外语环境，他们的外语水平不也是仅仅如此吗。这在留学生身上也得到了证明：除了睡眠时间他们一半以上的时间几乎都用在了听读说上。然而即便如此，留学十年的学生的外语却不比留学三年的好多少。现在该下结论了吧：成人“像幼儿学话一样去学外语”这一主张是有一定局限性的。至少不能说“多背文章多熟悉句型、无条件地暴露在外语环境当中”和口语的提高是有直接关系的。
　　我的德语脱口而出，以及我在电视上看辩论赛时，脑海里闪现辩论用语句的原因也不在于此。

6、成人学外语应该有他们自己的标准。
　　幼儿们的母语在很大程度上不如成人。所以看电视剧或看新闻的时候会有很多不理解的内容，看书本也只能理解童话书籍或儿童杂志一类的内容。
　　他们即使能读报纸或小说，也不容易理解其中的内容。那不仅仅是他们的精神世界不同于成人的缘故，更主要的原因是，他们的精神世界仍处于很低级的状态。
　　用孩子学说话的方式去学外语，即便成功了，他们学到的也只不过是孩子世界的语言而已。
　　正确的讲，成人对语言表达的标准不仅是简单的沟通，也就是说，成人并不想把自己的思想简单化，或者通过缩短自己的语言来表达想法，因为成人大脑要求的是对事物更加系统，更加详尽的说明。
　　我仔细回顾了一下自己为学德语而所走过的全部过程。我以我们国家最普遍的方式学到了丰富的语法知识，并提高了阅读理解能力，也扩大了词汇量。接着又在德国接受了语言课程等等，在学习德语方面投入了相当多的时间。加上听了数百学时的专业课，又通读了十多本参考文献和杂志。视听电视节目的时间恐怕也不下数百个小时了吧。大部分留学生曾经也都经过了这样的学习过程，这没什么特别的东西。
　　到后来才和德国同学们聊天，但大部分时间都是瞎聊一些日常小事儿；最近才提高到能开始参与类似辩论的话题，直到有一天突然觉得自己赶得上并且走在电视辩论节目的辩手前面去了。那么到底是什么东西让我创造了如此的奇迹呢？

7、为了说得更好，需要反复听人讲。
　　如果说与一般的语言教材有绝对的不同之处的话，就是我接触的大部分德语书都和所学专业有关联。在我结束语言课程之后碰到的德语词汇量相当大，而这些词汇中的大部分竟然是在课堂上听过来的，所以比起其他方面的内容理解起来要容易的多。就连我用韩语学的也是同一专业。
　　第一个学期听课只听懂了一半，第二个学期几乎全都听懂了，原因可能和上语言班时的情况差不多。如果有机会反复听到同样的内容，那么自然有一天会豁然开朗。这一点与孩子们听懂了他们的母语是一个道理。
　　孩子们开始学说话时首先说出的是听到最多的语句。是啊，如果是这样，那么成人是否也是先吐出自己听到的最多的话呢？韩国有一句笑话说，“到国外学语言，首先学会骂人”。这句话可能就是这个意思。这样看来，长住德国的韩国同胞们和已经长时间在德国的留学生们都有一个共同点：就是想不起话来时总是喜欢多用几个“调味用的”语言。因为这是他们听到最多的话。

8、归根结底，能讲得最好的语言也是最长听的语言。
　　当我看电视辩论赛时，拍痛了自己的大腿，是因为我找到了把钥匙――即“为了能讲好话，必须反反复复地听”！
　　还没等电视里的辩手们开口，我头脑里闪现出的那些辩论用语句都与我在课堂上，课题小组会议中，无数次听到过的一模一样。刚好，那天辩论赛的主题与我的专业有着密切的关系，所以就连他们用的词汇都是我再熟悉不过的，总之，那些都是我在平时最常听到的词汇和句型。
　　请让我们想想说不出话时的感受吧。脑子里明明是装得满满的，可一旦想转移到舌头上的时候，开头词以外的话全都忘光了。出现那种情况，是因为语言作为表达头脑里想法的手段还没有形成体系。
　　孩子们思想能够沟通的标准仅仅是几个单词就可以解决的问题。但成人已经成为独立思维的个体，所以他们对语言的需要是使其充当表达思想的手段。
　　总之，作为成人不但要把容易的会话学好，还得学会讲出辩论类的高档次的语言，才能使思维和语言，即头脑和舌头有着相互的感应。（其实我们用母语讲话的时候也会出现相同的问题。思维的水平虽然差不多，但是有的人能够表达好，有的却做不好，不是吗？）

9、成人要熟悉地表达成人的想法。
　　总之，要具有较高的口语水平，只会说“初次见面时的客套话”、“自我介绍”、“问路”等等这样的连美国孩子都能说好的日常用语是远远不够的。关键在于成人要习惯于表达成人的想法。
　　正如孩子们上了幼儿园之后，语言才脱口而出一样，成人也要听惯了成人的语言，才能找到良好的感觉。

part3

                            本套教材的特点和使用方法

1. 能进一步提高您的语言组织能力的“千万别学英语”《听说大突破》系列。
　　“千万别学英语”《听说大突破》系列是有效提高语言组织能力的学习工具。我想给那些已经开始各种英语学习方案的人，如，只停留在‘ Good Morning, Mr. Lee! How are you? ’或‘Are you married? No, I'm single. ’这样英语水平线上的人们献一份礼――那就是更高层次的语言组织能力。既然是献礼，就肯定不会让您特别辛苦，而是不学就会，也就是说让您从所有英语学习方法中解脱出来，改变原有的想法，让这一套磁带响彻在您耳边。
　　我的这套教材既不像传统教学方法那样需要集中精力地去听上两个小时，也不像其他学习教材那样必须要先去理解它的内容，而是理解和不理解都可以，没有什么奥秘在里面。
2. “心――脑――舌”三个阶段的过程转化成“心――脑/舌”两个阶段的过程。
　　这套教材里有一种以往任何教材都没有的隐藏着的弦。虽然没有必要深究它，语言组织能力却是因它而生。它可以称作唤醒脑和舌之间感应的催化剂，也刺激了头脑中的“语言学习装置”，使已有的“心――脑――舌”三阶段过程转化成了“心――脑/舌”的两阶段过程。
　　如果要我就此书透露一点的话：登场人物的语言环境不一样，加拿大人、美国人、澳大利亚人等几种不同的发音和文化都混合在一起，内容既丰富又刺激，而就这一方面其他语言教材都没法跟这套相比。
3. 开始这套教材的最佳时机。
　　那么我们什么时候开始学习这套教材呢？最佳时机是《千万别学英语》五阶段全部结束之后。因为这个时候很容易激发舌头的表现欲望，所以感应会很迅速地发生。如果你实在忍不到那个时候，至少也要等到《千万别学英语》第三阶段结束，这样你的词汇量才能不影响你表达你的想法。
4. 请任选此教材中的一盘磁带开始学习。
　　如果要我介绍学习方法的话，我就建议你每天听一遍至少维持一个星期。如果你很忙的话则可每天抽空听一下。
　　不管你是怎么听的，只要是反复听了六遍左右，次数够了就可再接着听下一个主题了。就这样换着主题听，听到最后再回到第一个主题。在这段过程中你可能会跟着录音机一起说，而至于舌头是怎么工作的你就不要管了。有些人的英语甚至可能会神奇性地出现脱口而出的情况。
　　如果是初学者则不一定要把三套全买下来，只需要买下自己最喜欢的一套。因为这三套是不分先后顺序以及难度的。
　　但如果想把外语提高到当地成人的语言水平的话，就必须要多学习外语写的知识和信息。这样谈论的话题才能不受限制而且可以畅所欲言。扩大外语知识信息量的最佳途径是尽可能地多用外语接触主题。此教材的每一套分成六个主题也是因为这个缘故。
　　如果你有强于常人的耐心与恒心的话，请把每个主题反复听二十遍左右。那样会产生更好的效果。事实上，这也是我最推崇的方法，这样英语会提高得更快。
　　值得一提的是，如果采用这样的方法则必须在听完一个主题后休息一两天。这就好像酿葡萄酒时发酵也需要时间。孩子们说话前需要三四年的积累也就是这个道理。
5. 处在欲“脱”非“脱”时期，若采用特别的并行措施见效会更快。
　　采用上一节的方法后外语如果可以脱口而出的话就算成功了。而如果你发现自己还是处在似“脱”非“脱”的局面的话，你可以到当地的成人会话班或者去为期一个月的海外进修作为辅助手段。那样的话用不了一个月大部分人的外语就能脱口而出了。
　　我真心地期待着那些像鹦鹉一样只用背好的文章来说英语的人能够早日说出属于自己、像样的英语来。
《千万别学英语》《你还在学英语吗》作者
郑赞容
于韩国汉城

part 4
                                    录音原文

1册《Love and Marriage》

1. Love and Marriage


SIDE A


Hello, We're here gathered together in holy matrimony, no actually we're here to talk about that sacred thing that we call marriage or living together.

Vivian: Um, Let's all introduce ourselves.
Daisy: O.K. Well I'm Daisy, and I'm married and I'm on the verge of divorce.
Bow: Hi, everybody, my name is Bow, and I'm married and I think the institution of marriage is just great.
Luke: Um, my name is Luke, um I'm still looking for that special someone to make all my dreams come true.
Vivian: Hey. I think, I'm Viv, and I think legal is regal but I don't need it so I have a perfectly happy relationship with someone and we don't plan to get married any time soon and perhaps never.
Luke: That was cool, those rhyme?? I wish I had thought of that.
Vivian: Anyways let's continue on.

Vivian: I'm sure each person agrees that everyone is made a little bit differently, uh... some people may be suitable for them and some may not be. And you may find the right companion for you, during your life time. And others find that they may choose to go another path now I'd be curious to find out how you feel about the companion in a marriage you know.., or children.., whatever. Go ahead, urn, Luke?

Luke: Well, I don't know, maybe I'm a bit of an optimist or something. But I think I haven't find her yet, but I believe that, there is a girl out there, that is just 100% compatible with me. Like the 100% perfect girl for me, and I just got to go out there and I got to see the world until I find her. And then totally I'm just gonna spend the rest of my life with her and there is no questions asked, um it will be, I'll know it when it's the time and it's gonna be great and I'm not gonna have to worry about anything.., and I'm gonna set myself up with a little piece of farm land and I'm just gonna make babies for the rest of my life.

Daisy: The three kids in the three bedroom house the whole deal.

Luke: Well, yeah to a degree. I just wanna drop-out, you know I wanna work hard now then I wanna drop by the society, I don't wanna be part of this rat i race anymore but I mean, I've got to stay interested in it, I've got to stay in the game and the only way you can do that, is just by being in love with someone who. I'm 100% on the level with and totally together with. And I have faith that I'll find her, hopefully soon.

Vivian: But what makes you feel that? Well I mean not that you won't find her but I'm saying why do you feel the drive or the need to find a companion in your life? And what makes you think that, that would be so nice? (Daisy: Where's the feeling?)

Luke: It's kind of empty without it, isn't it? I mean your whole world is made up of all these like individuals going around trying to find something in common with.., as many other people as possible. And just trying to like make a connection, but a whole bunch of really superficial connections like,... I don't know.., like what're your hobbies, what's your job, people join clubs to find people and so they can talk about similar things and so they can sort of have a common ground to start a relationship with.

Vivian: So (Daisy: Romantic.) you don't think that, you don't think that, there would be any reason or way, I mean do you think that this will be your lifetime partner? What about divorce? You don't see that in the picture? I mean, do you think that, by chance, you might end up with the wrong partner? And do you believe in perhaps remarriage or finding a second companion you weren't compatible.

Luke: No, I don't believe that at all, I think, everything that's been leading up to, urn, in my whole life in the relationships I've made with members of the opposite sex romantically, there's always been something missing, there's something that is not quite there, it doesn't click on some level, and you have this initial attraction maybe, but then as you find out more about each other, eventually you become a little bit, the passion fades and stuff, and you don't become that, and you're not into them anymore. But I think that it is possible to just click with somebody so well, and you just realize you just go on and go on, the attraction just gets better and better because as you discovering things about them you realize how much they have in common with you, but it's a very rare thing, I mean I don't think everybody necessarily even finds it in their life.., but I think that that is something we can strive for. The dating process is just like auditions you're just learning about people and then someone gets the parts, someone you cast in the leading role in your life.

Daisy: So you're determine to like search out that person and until you find that person you're satisfied with being alone or, or like maybe dating or,...

Luke: I'm happy dating and stuff, but I don't do it just for the sake of doing and like I definitely have an ulterior motive that's, I wanna find that person, it's a, it's a ...there's a definitely I mean to, I mean I'm trying to have fun in the meantime, but there's that emptiness there, that's, that's just, you know, by playing the field I just don't get that, that support I need.

Vivian: Ah So you're a sensitive guy, and you're looking for that Mrs right.

Luke: No, well, if you wanna put it in Dear Abbey terms, yeah I guess so

Vivian: Ok. Well, let's move on to Bow then. Bow, you're in a very stable marriage with three kids. I mean, you're happy where you are?

Bow: I'm extremely happy. It's probably the best decision I've ever made in my life, and I totally see where... Luke is coming from, I mean being my brother and all we are pretty much, you know, sensitive guys, so ... um ... yeah. I went through the same thing as him and ... it's tough in the beginning, I mean it's hard to find that Mrs. Right, but if you just keep looking and your compassionate about it, you do find her and you do,.., and the institution of marriage is just the ultimate thing for a man. It's just great, it's the fusion of not just your bodies but also your souls, you're soul mates.

Daisy: And what made Mary Lou so right for you, Bow?

Bow: It must have been, like, she just had twinkle in her eye. I could see deep into her soul, like I just knew that her soul and my soul were like two souls that, we're made for each other.

Vivian: One soul.

Luke: You lucky dog. See that's what I want see that's what I want to look at that I'm just like, that's it, man.

Bow: You can get there. You will someday, man.

Daisy: Right, well, see, you know, I'm kind of in the opposite situation from you guys, because, uh... well, what can I say, I was looking, I thought for exactly the same things, and I thought I'd found Mr. Right, and we've been married now for five years. And we've... I really, I have to admit I've tried. I really have tried, I put in the time.

Vivian: Did you love him when you first married him? And up to what point did you think that you loved him. I mean do you still love him?

Luke: When did it fade, when did it change?

Vivian: And why?

Daisy: Oh, well, I don't know, I cannot put this into words. Let me see, well, for me, yes, I did love him. I was both in love and in lust with him, when I met him.

Vivian: And did he love you too, I mean, was it a mutual thing, you really had that love, I mean... Luke There, That's the only way it works.

Daisy: I think so, I think, I really think that he did feel that way, you know, the thing is it that, it's really easy to be idealistic, and when you're in the white dress in your, you have this wonderful guy who's proposing to you. And, and your, there's the whole Cinderella, you know fairy tale ideal that's behind a wedding. And um, here I was walking down the aisle thinking that everything was gonna be wonderful, we were gonna have the three kids the house and the dog, and the B.M.W. in the drive way. And um, all of a sudden we had the house, and ok we didn't have children but.., there was something missing. And we... I think we started this on just an ideal and we weren't prepared for the realities of marriage. It's much more than those ideals.

Luke: Well, it's nothing, but it's nothing that's insurmountable, it's not anything that you can't overcome with communication, and genuine concern for the other person's well-being.

Daisy: Yeah, but the thing is where I'm at now, Luke is, I really, I don't know, if I can go on anymore, I mean, I think we've passed the point, maybe we should have been doing that communicating way back before, and now I'm in this situation where, I don't really wanna be with him, do I love him? I love him in the sense that I care about him, because I've been with him for a long time, I don't want anything bad happen to him. I wanna be able to help him as a friend if possible, but I'm certainly not in lust with him, and here's the thing I'm at this point in my marriage where I wanna be with other people. I, basically I wanna go out, and I want to be with other people.

Bow: Oh, that's a shame.

Vivian: What about, if you're in the circumstance, I mean, what if your situation involved children? I mean, would you still think of ending the relationship, I mean.., what about children?

Daisy: Yes, that's, well, all I can say is that I'm thankful that I don't. But you know, I think that would make it much more difficult, but in today's day and age maybe we could have a relationship where I have the kids one week and they have the kids the other week.

Vivian: So, is that what you gonna do with your poodle?

Daisy: Well, Yes, I mean that's another thing. I don't know what I'm gonna do with the dog either. But...

Luke: The dog is just a superficial thing.., that's just some sort of thing that you were using as some kind of glue to keep yourselves together. I think you should give it another chance, I mean, you've got this person, you've obviously made it this far, well, what you need to do is bring it to the next level. You need to have a child, you need to make, need to make an another commitment, I mean, life is just a series of commitments, (Daisy: But, the what about...) You got to go deeper and deeper and keep challenging yourself and then ... it's too easy, people just throw things out when they don't work out (Vivian: No.) and it's too easy. You've got to start seeing things through. I think, well, that's, that's your prerogative, but I think that people have to continue to challenge themselves and to continue to commit themselves to things and then they realize only down the road, I've made these commitments, "Oh my, God, I've had a very rich and fulfilling and beautiful life. And a child would be the thing that you need right now, to get yourselves back on the same track, to get yourselves together and to get back on that horse and, go out there and have a beautiful loving relationship again.

Bow: I totally agree.

Vivian: Well, I totally don't, I don't think Daisy has to go back to, I mean, to find another commitment to hold her in there, to string her into this relationship. I mean, she wants to find freedom, she wants to go find another soul mate, let her be. Why should she be tied down?

Daisy: Well, It wasn't necessarily a soul mate. It was just kind of um... mates.

Bow: Was it a one night stand?

Daisy: Yeah.

Bow: And turned into a marriage?

Daisy: No, no, no, no, I was talking about when I get a divorce. I wasn't looking for other soul mates, just mates.

Luke: I bet you're looking for just like sexual partners.

Daisy: Well, at the moment, yes.

Luke: Well, you can't do it like that, I mean this is what I've been doing, this is the dilemma I have. I'm empty, I'm like a, I'm just like an empty vessel floating through the sea, because I don't have that anchor to hold me to anything.

Daisy: Well, you know, we are just basically extremes on one scale, aren't we, Luke?

Luke: Well, I guess so, but I just would say from my position, I mean the grass can look always greener from where you're sitting, but I mean, it isn't always necessarily so, and I think that you think you'll gain all this freedom and stuff, but you're losing a whole lot of really important things.

Daisy: Well, Toucher, You might come over to my green grass, and not find it so green.

Luke: Well, Yeah. but I haven't experienced what you've experienced, yet. I never had that, that happy unity with one other person. And stuck it out for five years. I've never been able to do that.

Bow: But I have, and I agree with Luke. I think that instead of looking for other sexual escapade, you should be looking for the new partner in your life, your soul mate. I mean it's.., there's nothing like having this like mutual respect for one each other, it's like a, let me give you an example like I work, you know a little bit.., like after seven o'clock sometimes, and you know, I might wanna go out and have a couple of beers with, my, my colleagues so, you know, I'll be back by ten, and I call my, my wife and I say "Darling, I'm gonna be a little late maybe about 10: 30" and she's like "Darling, no problem".

Luke: That's beautiful.

Bow: I mean that's, that's mutual respect.

Luke: Yes, that's beautiful, and I mean, that's, what it's all about, it's not like you've got an albatross around your neck anything. It's liberating, I think, I think once you find it, you realize that you have a whole different realm of freedom that you weren't even aware existed. (Bow: Totally) Freedom to be yourself, freedom to like fully give of yourself to another person. That's true freedom, that's true freedom.

Daisy: Well sure, it's freedom for you guys who work and get to go out, and lead good lives, while your wife is at home cooking and, cleaning, and she has no, you know, personal satisfaction.

Luke: I'll stay at home. I'd love to stay at home.

Bow: Um, Well me, personally, I mean, I have my own chores every day, we share the responsibilities of the house. I do laundry, I wash dishes, and I'm, you know I'll come home beat dead from work, at like nine or something, I mean, really late, I'd go to bed by like ten. But, I mean, my wife is watching the baby all day, and she might have like corns and calices on her feet, they might stink but, I'll still massage them, until my finger's almost bleed. And, I mean, that's what marriage is about.

Daisy: Well I don't know many guys like you, two.

Vivian: And I certainly don't.

Daisy: And I don't think there are a lot of men that are willing to do that.

Vivian: Willing to sacrifice, yeah.

Luke: They're everywhere, men just are, just looking for the excuse, they have all this, macho posturing and stuff that they just wanna go out and, and meet a lot a chicks, bust that's all a ruse. It's just because they're insecure ...

Daisy: And you don't wanna have sex with other women?

Vivian: Oh, but he does. He's saying he is experimenting until he finds that right one.

Luke: But the sex isn't just an incidental. I'm not doing it, I'm not doing it in pursuit of sex, I'm not, I'm looking for someone who, who I'm compatible with sexually but also emotionally, and like (psycho...) intellectually.

Daisy: Well, then why is it wrong for me to go out and have, um and play the field and have sex with other people and find my soul mate?

Luke: I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying, I'm just saying that you made this decision and there's a certain sanctity to marriage, but I think that, that it's sacred, and you have to uphold it no matter what, no matter what life throws at you, you've made this decision, and you didn't do it, just because it was a fluke, I don't believe any marriages happen by accident. I think that if you're gonna go that far, it's magic, and you know its magic, and you know it's gonna work out, yeah.

Vivian: Well, see, but she doesn't feel it, she doesn't know that it's magic. She doesn't feel it at all.

Luke: But, at that time, she did. She's just lost something that used to just be there, and she just has to rekindle that again. It's still there, (Daisy: But it's gone.) it's doesn't just go away you don't. People just don't like have something and it disappears. (Vivian: What if she's mistaken?) I mean, well, that she must have mistaken, well, then ... (Vivian: In the last it all?) I don't think she did. I don't think she did. I don't think that people make mistake like that. When it comes to matters of the heart, I think you know, you know right off the bat. Matters of the heart, you can be wrong about math equations, and you can be wrong about, like your positions on things or like on historical facts. But on matters of the heart you're always right. You can't, I mean intuition is everything.

Daisy: Like Michael Jackson and Lisa Mary Presley, (Michael, Yeah, Lisa Mary) or Dennis Rodman and or Carmen Electra.

Luke: I don't know these people, but I think if they were gonna make the big plunge, they were gonna go out and get married, and make these huge commitment to each other as this united whole. Two candles becoming one, you know. I think that something was there that is still there, it's just that the thing that made it work has gone, it's dormant now. And it's a matter of trying to find it again and bring it back up, (Vivian: O.K.) and I think anything is, like, just.., can be overcome. Any kind of conflicts you had, if you're in the bond of marriage, and you had the idea in the first place, (Daisy: Oh that’s a little naive, Luke.) it's real, it's real, no, it's real.

Vivian: How, how about not trying to rekindle that fire, but, just say, "Hey, the flame is gone, and it's died out, and you're never gonna find it again, so why not go and try to, come to a mutual understanding, and say "Hey, let's go and find another companion, or just find happiness in our lives"

Luke: Well, I think that's a very defeatist attitude, (Vivian: Why is it defeatist?) I think, I think it creates a very dangerous pattern for the rest of your life. If something, if something just doesn't work out, like you kind of get a thrill off it and then it's starts going on, and all of sudden, it doesn't have the same, the same kick it used to have and it doesn't, there's a diminished return you're getting from it, you don't just give up from it and walk away, I mean, what are you gonna walk away from your whole life, you gotta, you gotta, sometimes you've got to put yourself on the line, and this is one of those things where you have to do that.

Daisy: O.K. alright, O.K. Luke, well, Here's Sally and Ben, and, Sally and Ben, they grew up in high school together, and they had a wonderful relationship and they did that whole fairy tale wedding and they thought they were very happy, and well, somewhere along the line, Ben, kind of got a little bit violent, and he would beat Sally and beat the children and Sally tried to get him help but, he wouldn't get him help, and then Sally said, "well, you know, but this is the dream of our marriage? Should I stay here? And what about children? And there comes a point, don't you think when a woman in a situation like that, should leave?

Luke: Well, you left a part out there, because, you just said, all of a sudden, he just started beating them up? What changed? Like what did she do, what is, how did she change that made him start beating them up, like, I mean obviously (Bow: Exactly) there was, something there and it shifted and the situation was made different, that caused the man to start to becoming violent. (Vivian: That is) I mean, he didn't have that in high school, I mean, I hope if he was doing that in high school, she didn't like it. I assume she doesn't.

Daisy: Well, some people, some people have violent tendencies and they don't manifest them until later life, and perhaps he's just manifested them, maybe it was Ben's fault, and not Sally's fault.

Luke: Well, maybe, but, I mean, obviously not, he just didn't wake up and did (Daisy: You're attacking women, that's what you're doing) no I'm not, no I'm not, (Daisy: You are), I'm not at all, I'm just saying that obviously something changed in the situation and, maybe it was within Ben, like maybe it was frustration with his job or something like that. (Vivian: Exactly, maybe it was with him) I'm not saying that, and I guess in that situation, yeah, I mean, it makes it a lot harder, but I still think it's overcomeable, I think that if he could just, if he just could take the fighting element out.., that in him hitting them, then it would be a good marriage again, right.

Bow: Well, she could learn to fight back a little bit, you know.

Luke: Sure.

Bow: Defend herself a little bit.

Luke: Well, that might escalate things. Maybe that's not good. I, I don't think violence in a marriage is really gonna...

Bow: But then maybe he could see her as his equal again, and then get on with things.

Luke: Possibly, possibly.

Daisy: Well, What about, O.K. Mr. Love, please tell me then, what I'm gonna do. Here I am living with this guy, and I well obviously have, well I'm married to him, and I, obviously have some problems with him, but my thing is, is that the I've met another man at work, and I'm very attracted to him? And I'd like to have sexual relations with him. Now how do I stop myself from doing that?

Luke: Well, see, you've already created the pattern for yourself though, cause if you had the same feelings for this guy that you did for your husband, is it gonna, is gonna lead to, is gonna go down the same way?

Daisy: I don't want to get married again.

Luke: Well... well.., why?

Bow: Why, the marriage is...

Luke: You have to. I mean, If it's the right thing, if you feel that kind of attraction to him, you have to, you have to like consummate it.

Vivian: You can't have, oh consummate it with sex? You can't have a sexual relationship with someone without being married?

Daisy: You're doing that, man?

Luke: Of course, I am, but, I'm just doing it to discover about people, I'm trying to get at their inner souls.

Daisy: And you can only do that because you're a man, we can't. Cause we're female?

Luke: I'm not saying that?

Bow: It's not as good, I mean having sexual relations with, just a, you know, a person that you meet in a bar or something, it means nothing. It's 2- dimensional, it doesn't it matter how sexy they are?

Vivian: O.K. Daisy? Just you know, tell him.., let's meet at the bar and meet him all you want, and do whatever you want with him.

Bow: I mean, the thing...

Daisy: Well, yeah, you know there's a certain animal, kind of instinct, in humans, and maybe sometimes sex for the sake of sex is OK too, why does sex always have to be a flop? Why can't I fulfill my, my pure (Vivian: Animal magnetism) physical desires?

Bow: Because, you are married.

Daisy: Okay. Well, if I get a divorce, and I'm not gonna be married any more.

Luke: Yeah, O.K. well, then go ahead and get a divorce, but well, I mean it's your life, I mean, you screwed up your life.

Bow: Totally, I mean...you're gonna...

Vivian: Why is it that screwing up her life? Why does divorce have to ruin your life?

Luke: Because she's turning her back on the greatest thing that's ever happened to her. That's why.

Bow: The institution of marriage.

Luke: Exactly.

Daisy: Have you met my husband? No.

Luke: No, I have not.

Daisy: Yes, so, I don't think you're qualified to speak about it, Mr. Love.

Luke: Well, obviously, he must have something going from, because you married him and you've lived with him for five years.

Daisy: Yes, but that has gone. I'm not in love with this person anymore; I want to have sex with other people.

Vivian: It was a mistake, she said.

Bow: Or maybe, you know, you just weren't trying hard enough, you have to spice up your marriage like, you have to bring some toys into the bedroom, spice it up, you know...whips and...

Daisy: No, spice it up by bearing another child so that you're completely and forever eternally committed to that relationship?

Bow: That's my brother Luke's idea, you know, he, he's not married yet, he doesn't know, but I am. I have experience, and yes of course you know, we have our troubles every once in a while, but...

Daisy: He's just wants free sex like you, O.K.

Bow: That's not true.

Luke: That's not true.

Vivian: Don't get so defensive!

Luke: I wanna... I'm looking for a committed relationship, and I tell this to girls up front before I sleep with them, and that I'm looking for something serious, but, sometimes, it just doesn't click.

Daisy: I wanna hear about the toys.

Vivian: I say, that's a line.

Bow: I mean, the masks and specials I have order catalogs from Japan, which are really great, it... I mean, I spent a lot of money on batteries a month? But it's totally worth it. I mean, when you have an altercation, and all it takes is a double dong-dildo to rectify it, it's a... I mean, it's no problem, I don't see anything wrong with that, and you know, it's the thing with the people today they're so easy like a, my brother was saying, to just, you know, to throw away a marriage. But urn, for this, you're talking about going out and having sex, because you love sex...

Daisy: Well, would you to be willing to if your wife said to you "O.K. I love you, but I wanna be with another person, to be involved with us."

Vivian: All I want to be is sexually satisfied by, not a dildo, but by the real thing.

Bow: If that's what it would take to keep the fire in our marriage alive, then yes I would.

Vivian: You would let another man, if your wife said you "No, I want another man to satisfy me, I want to open our marriage, and take in new sexual partners" you would do that for your wife?

Bow: Yes, I would.

Vivian: Even though, that's like kind of breaking your marriage, vows. That's... I mean, that's just as good as going out and have an affair.

Bow: Well, that depends on what kind of religion you have, or what kind of standards, and...

Vivian: But, you guys are talking about the sanctity of marriage and the vows and not breaking them.., and how you should be forever committed to each other.

Bow: Exactly, which means that.., we'll do anything it takes to keep that alive.

Daisy: But, thus, do you really, can you sit here and honestly look me in the eye, Bow, and tell me.

Vivian: Look at her in the eye!

Daisy: And tell me, (Vivian: Don't roll your eyes!) you could watch another man having relations with Mary lou?

Bow: I mean, if, if, what it took was for, if she, if she asked.

Vivian: Don't break down on this.

Bow: If she asked me, you know, to have some sort of deviant relationship in bed, that's,...that's what I had to do, that's what I have to do!

Vivian: But I just asked you, what about the sacred vows of your marriage that you supposedly uphold so highly.

Luke: But I mean, if it's something that your partner wants, I don't think you have to be limited by the traditional ideas of marriage, of course, we're living in changing times. And people have different needs and different things that turn them on and stuff, and I mean there's room within a marriage to change some of those standard perceptions, I mean I think, um, I think it's important that people, that people find and make their own definitions of marriage. I think it's important that they, that they, just, that they seek out what's best for them, and within a marriage no one can touch that, that's just you and your partner, make it work however it has to, however it has to happen.

Vivian: So, why can't the same apply for Daisy, or I mean what if her, her husband came to a mutual agreement that their marriage isn't going to go anywhere, from here. I mean, that they mutually agree that this is the point where, you know that they're going to.

Bow: That's exactly what we're saying. We want her to try something before she gives up on her marriage.

Vivian: Not, not give up. I'm not saying try. I'm saying they both agree that they're gonna both go their own ways, and that they have tried.

Luke: I'm just saying that's a dangerous pattern to get into. I think once you've made that...

Vivian: Who says it's a pattern? Doing it once ...doing it once isn't, it's not like you're gonna divorce a hundred times in your life.

Luke: But you might get married. If you get married a hundred times what's to stop you from divorcing?

Daisy: No, well, No, I don't want to get married again. You know, everybody doesn't have to speak for me. I don't wanna get married again. And the thing is I think it's probably innately human for us to want to have more than one partner, and if I married a man that can not fulfill my needs, and then why should take the responsibility and onus all by myself, to fix that.

Luke: But, people. Its works better, if you would just stay with one person, that works better.

Vivian: Why do you have to be with one person, I never wanna get married I'm perfectly satisfied living my own life, and you know, you can perfectly, have a partner, and not get married, you can live the rest of your life with one partner, why must you get married? Is it some inevitable thing that you have to cross?

Daisy: Sure, and even if she doesn't want to get married, I mean, if she chooses to have a single life.

Vivian: And be faithful to him.

Daisy: Or not even have a partner, or not even have a partner, in today's society, there are several options if she wanted to be a mother, a single mother is nothing new in today's society. There's surrogate mothers, well, I mean, you know, there's so many opportunities out there for women, why do I have to choose this archaic, patriarchal, system, um that men created, marriage.

Luke: Well, no I mean, I'm sorry it's come to it that you see it that way but I think that you are missing out on one of the great treasures of life and that's...

Vivian: And How do you know, you're not even married, you just have this idealistic marriage um idea in your head..

Luke: O.K. How about this? I'll appeal to on a more of a legalistic and pragmatic angle, I mean, without marriage. You don't get all these tax-breaks and stuff and you don't get the same benefits that, that you'd get if you're married. If you're single, you're just living together that's not gonna, that's not gonna, that's not gonna hold up in a court-of-law. There are so many benefits you get. Just from a pragmatic point of view.

Vivian: I'll play your game. I'll adopt a kid, ha.

Bow: But you won't get respect from society, society doesn't, does not respect single mothers or single women.

Vivian: I'll donate, I'll donate. Why not?

Daisy: Because society is ruled by a government of white, conservative men, and there in lies the problem.

Vivian: O.K. What about this? Alright Bow, I honestly, don't believe you are satisfied with your marriage, you're not lustful of your wife, and she isn't of you. You guys are in it on your marriage, it's a functional marriage. You guys feel like you have to be with each other, you have to raise this picture (Daisy: Three kids) perfect family, exactly, and you are tied down by your kids and your dog and your BMW and your two door garage.

Luke: Have you never seen them together the way they're fawn over each other, and dote on each other?

Vivian: In front of others, sure.

Bow: You, just, you're saying that from lack of experience, you just haven't been there, once you cross over to the other side then maybe we can have this conversation.

Vivian: I don't wanna be on the other side. I'm perfectly happy living the life that I am.

Bow: Sure, promiscuous and just another man every other night and, you know, you don't know if you have a disease or, you know...

Luke: Ignorance is bliss.

Bow: Exactly.

Vivian: I get my pap smear every six months.

Bow: Doesn't matter, the thing is, it's not.., you're just thinking about sex in the, because of the, the function of sex. It just pure lust and that's not what it's all about, it's about like, yes, of course.

Daisy: Well, you're not thinking about the lust when you use those toys with your wife?

Bow: No, maybe, she is, but to me, (Daisy: Maybe she is), it's really, it's like um the ultimate of a... coming together, that fusion of marriage and love is, is intercourse, with each other and it's not just the function of it. It's, it's more like a union of our souls coming together, and it's not like, you know, of course, I think of other women as attractive, wow, she is really beautiful, and but.., it's more of an attraction to my wife, well, I mean, even when I see her naked with her stretch marks and her rolls, that's doesn't matter to me. It's just like, I don't even see that.

SIDE B
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Daisy: Right, (Bow: You don't even know) well, that's a beautiful thing, if that's true, but some, for most people, it doesn't, love doesn't exist on that level, and you can be with people and they become unattractive to you, and why at this age? My mistake was, I'll admit it, I don't have a problem with that I can admit my mistakes. My mistake was marrying too young. And now I'm at this point in my life where I want to move on. I need to progress, and I feel I'm not progressing with my husband, he has not progressed.

Bow: And how does he feel about it? Does he know about it?

Daisy: Well, actually he still wants to remain married, but he is still the same person that he was five years ago, and I feel I've evolved and I don't wanna be with him. I can't connect with him on the same intellect, the same level, that same soul mating that I had with him five years ago, is gone and I'm not attracted to him not in the slightest bit in fact when he touches me, I'd rather puke.

Luke: No, you're just going through a phase, it will pass, everybody goes through it, that's true. I think, I don't know, I think that attraction, you know, comes and goes, but really when it's the, when it's the right the thing it's never ends.

Daisy: Believe me baby, it's gone (Luke: No... No)

Bow: Ah, it might also be, I mean you seem to be getting close to that age of like menopause? So maybe that's it, like ... you know...

Vivian: Menopause after five years of marriage when she got married young?

Daisy: I'm only thirty years old.

Bow: Oh, I'm sorry.

Vivian: Anyways, I don't see the reason why someone has to remain married or get married. I mean you can seek out a different life style for yourself and that doesn't mean being promiscuous every night and sleeping with another man or woman, you can certainly...

Luke: But It does, it does mean that, if you just can't (Vivian: Why?) seem to, if you can't seem to find that one person that does it for you, and draws you into their world so much, you wanna be the part of that world, you wanna, you wanna love everything about this person, you know, you wanna know what they think (Vivian: But why have.., why?) you wanna know what they feel, you wanna, when you meet them you know, food tastes better and like colors are more vibrant and stuff.., that's...

Bow: You leave the door open when you go to the bathroom.

Luke: Yeah, there's a trust there, there's, there's a fully, there's a freedom and there's a genuine like ecstatic and rapturous joy, (Daisy: Well, then let me ask you this, boy.) that you get from just giving of yourself to another person.

Vivian: But why must you marry them, why do you have to make a vow and marry someone, it's, it's just a piece of paper, and.., it's a license (Bow: No, no.).

Daisy: And, further more, further more, urn, here you are Bow, you know, going on and on and on about the virtues of a marriage, your marriage values when you walked into that sanctified institution called the church, told you that you were only allowed to have sexual relations with your wife, and here you are, inviting virtual strangers into your boudoir. And how can you justify that?

Bow: Excuse me, Miss, not at all. It's was actually in a synagogue ... and our rules are different there.

Daisy: Excuse me the Jewish the, the Jewish religion says that you can invite strangers into your bedroom.

Bow: Yes.

Daisy: I think not.

Luke: Actually, not. It's yeah, not it's doesn't actually says that, I don't think, but, but, it goes back to my other point earlier that, like it's not always the letter of the law. Sometimes you have to you have to abide by the spirit of the law? Do you know what I'm saying, people?

Vivian: And what is the law? What, what? The words on the certificate of your marriage license?

Luke: Well, actually, it doesn't come in a certificate with like little rules on it.

Daisy: Because the government says you're allowed to live and fornicate with this person? Then it's okay.

Luke: Well, it was not only O.K. Yes, it's great that you can that you can know that this person is gonna be for you there. All the time through thick and thin you know, no matter what kind of trials and tribulations live can throw at you.

Daisy: Well, what kind of person is gonna be there, because I'm not gonna be there for my husband, I want a divorce.

Luke: But then you're not keeping up your end of the agreement that you've made.

Daisy: The agreement that what my local government or my senate told me that I had to fulfill?

Luke: Hey, hey!

Vivian: The agreement that went void and null.

Luke: No, no, no, you, they, the government didn't force you to get married, I'm sorry. But I mean, you took that decision upon yourself.

Daisy: I did, and I admitted my mistake, that I made a mistake; I got married to the wrong guy. But how can you sit there in your, on your sanctimonious pedestal (Vivian: Single) and tell me that I should stay with this me who I'm totally, 100%, unhappy and unsatisfied with. And I can't move on with my life? Give me one good reason.

Luke: O.K. Alright. If you, I guess if you, if you acknowledge that you've made a mistake, I guess I'll have to I'll say alright on that. But I still think that you've taken the wrong turn, T don't think that you should give up on the institution of marriage, or the institution of love, you know, I mean of, like forever love, you know, the kind of love that just keeps on giving and giving.

Bow: You haven't tried hard enough.

Daisy: Well, maybe, somewhere down on the track, if you guys give me let me get a divorce, I might find that guy.

Luke: No, I mean, it's, it's a free country, you can do whatever you want. I'm just saying don't sell yourself short by saying like the whole thing's a sham. I mean, obviously, there has to be some kind of merit to it, look how many people do it? (Bow: Exactly) Everybody gets married; it's the thing to do.

Vivian: And everybody gets divorced these days, look at the divorce rate. It's about fifty percent now, for the past twenty years.

Luke: I'm not saying that's right. I don't think that's right, I think that's wrong.

Daisy: Because people go into marriage for the wrong reasons, (Vivian: Exactly) and they do it because they want to conform to society.

Vivian: And too soon without knowing for sure that they really want to commit to that sort of relationship, why must you commit to, you can get married at the age of forty for the first time and only time in your life. (Luke: Sure) (Daisy: Hey man) You can find the one committed partner and live with them or have relations with them for twenty, thirty years without having a marriage license, to bond you guys together.

Luke: Oh, no, no, well of course, well O.K. I believe you can find that love at any point in your life.

Vivian: So as long as you've found that love, that, that one person, right, in your book, you don't have to get married. After you find that person, then you can go ahead and get married if you want to, but why force it on someone else when it may not suit them, maybe it was a mistake.

Bow: I'll tell you why. It's because you can never really trust your partner until you have that commitment. The sign on the dotted line, until you have that then there's an ultimate trust it goes beyond human, urn, intellect, you can't even imagine, what it's like.., cause you're not married.

Vivian: Then, perhaps your love is not as solid as you think it is if you need a signature on a dotted line, instead of the trust and the bond and the honesty that you have with each other.

Daisy: O.K, if you are right Bow, the things that melds and meshes two people together is that signature on the dotted line. Then how do you feel about the fact that my sister, who I love with all my heart and my soul, who's been there through thick and thin, all the things in my life. I could go on for so long, but that's an another story. She is a lesbian, and I'm proud to say that, I don't have any problems with saying that. I don't I don't. But anyway she is a lesbian and she is in involved in a relationship now, she's fifteen years older than me by the way, she's forty-five, she's been in involved in a relationship now for twenty years. Twenty years, they've been devoted to each other they have an adopted child; they love each other with all their heart. They're wonderful, they're, they're better than you, and Mary Lou, they don't even have to bring in toys and other women or whatever, but they are completely happy together, and they can't get married, they can't sign on that dotted line, and what do you have to say that.

Bow: Let me respond to that, urn, you know, because your sister is a sexual deviant in our society, um, you know, she's not able to actually have a real marriage and I think she's probably regrets that.

Daisy: Excuse me, deviant? Wasn't it you telling us about you bring strangers into your bedroom?

Bow: That was a sacrifice to keep my marriage alive.

Vivian: And isn't that I think that marriage.

Daisy: I think you are a hypocrite.

Vivian: And those marriage vows are (Luke: Hey,) supposed to be about, they're supposed to be between two and there's supposed to be sacred in your words. But they're not sacred anymore after you've invited half the neighborhood into your bedroom.

Luke: Well, O.K. What is the goal of sex? I mean, what is the whole point of it? Is it for pleasure? Well, maybe as a sort of distraction, I mean, I think the purpose is for procreation. I don't think the people should just be getting together and shagging just to have like.

Daisy: This is the misconception that rest of the society, especially the male population seems to have. A homosexual relationship is not about sex, it's about the fact that two people love each other, just as same as a man and a woman love each other, they don't feel that way with another person. They only feel that way with one another, because the person they're with is their soul mate, the person you're seeking, Luke. So you're sitting there, on your little preaching pedestal, telling me about going out and finding your soul mate, when my sister has her soul mate, she's been with her for twenty years, faithful, Bow. Hasn't had any strangers in the bedrooms. She is happy, and they're together. And they're solid and they are solidified, they're gel.

Luke: I don't think that, I don't think that they have monogamous relationships (Bow: Yeah), I think they're always is, you gotta admit with homosexual relationships, there's always some fooling around, ... if you have guys...

Vivian: Why, I'm sorry.

Daisy: No, No, I'm sorry, I know my sister, I know her, you don't...

Bow: And also, with lesbians, I mean, I'm sure that they're not totally sexual satisfied, yeah, how could they be? I mean, just tongues and fingers...what.... I don't...

Vivian: And neither are you and that's why you need your dildo, right?

Daisy: Yeah, well, obviously, you're doing something wrong, Bow. (Bow: Well...)

Vivian: Aren't performing up to your...

Bow: No, see you don't understand, I'm just.., it's just to be, it's just to be creative (Vivian: Pardon? Pardon?) in the bedroom and not keep it monotonous and um... to... you know, it's just to keep it spicy, it's just a little extra, extra added on.

Vivian: Well maybe if you had the equipment too, you wouldn't need it any other equipment?

Luke: I tell you what's monotonous? Monotonous is like going out every night, picking up some like babe in a bar, taking her home, (Vivian: Like you do, uh?) and having like wild sex with them and then waking up in the morning, they make you breakfast and they leave.

Bow: It's disgusting.

Luke: It's terrible, I don't, it's just, it doesn't do it for me.

Vivian: You don't believe in it, you just practice it.

Daisy: Well, that's fine. My sister is not doing that and her partner isn't doing that either, why can't she have the same right as you, I want, if marriage's alright for you and Mary Lou, Bow. I want it to be alright for Helen, I'm ready.

Luke: Fair enough, fair enough. I'll side with you on that. I'll say that, I'll say that the institution of love and marriage, it goes beyond anything, beyond like a sexual orientation, beyond a, race, creed, color belief, anything. I think the love is the thing that, that, erases all those boundaries, all those distinctions that we try to build up between each other. I think love is the great bulldozer of ideological conflict. And I think that is the thing, that is the thing the main, the most important thing that the big the enforcer, the prime mover of love.

Vivian: Yes, sir, I mean...? Jimmy Swaggart? Amen.

Luke: It's marriage, it's marriage.., that's what makes it love.

Daisy: Well, and why can't they have marriage?

Vivian: Why can't you not have marriage?

Daisy: Answer my question!

Luke: I agree, I agree, they should, I mean, thinking it over, I think that they should, if they're truly in love, and they truly wanna go all the way with it, and they're having the kind of thing I've been dreaming of all these years, then who am I to say that they can' have that? Or that they shouldn't be able to, to... make it alright, but then you're contradicting yourself you're saying that, that they should get married.

Bow: I'm sorry.

Daisy: Well, I'm saying that they found each other, that's fine. In my case, I haven't found that person. I'm a completely different case, Luke, completely different.

Luke: But, if you found that person, would you get married again?

Daisy: If I was able to find that person who satisfied me on every level, emotionally, physically, sexually, yes. I would go for it. I would get the whole kit and caboodle.

Bow: Yeah, and five years later? Divorce.

Vivian: Why does the epitome of life have to surround a companion or marriage, or love. Why do you need that? Why can't you have a... fulfill your life and have a satisfying life with work and friends and a nice social life?

Bow: Uh? You know humans are innately gorgeous, they need people around them. (Luke: Yeah)

Vivian: Yeah, I've got lots of people around me, what about it?

Luke: That's not the same thing. I mean having friends and loose contacts and acquaintances and stuff, that's, that's shallow, I mean everybody has that and of course it's important but what you are looking for, the whole point of life, I believe, is making that one true commitment, where you just give everything of yourself, and you don't even know where, you stop, and the other person begins.

Daisy: O.K. We've heard it all before Luke, and actually, you know, I know that, um, most of you know, I've known   Luke: for quite a while and... There are a few things in your argument that don't quite, kind of gel, Luke, like for example, you're saying that when you're with a woman you let her know that you're looking for something more and then you go ahead and you have relations with her and if it's doesn't work out, you move on, is that what you tell, um, the women you hired down on the corner of fifth avenue?

Luke: Hey, hey, hey.., don't go slinging mud at me now.., that's a, that's a whole different, that's a whole different, I'm not even gonna comment, I'm not even gonna justify those comments.

Vivian: And, and you're talking about this cycle that's going to form, well I mean throwing away, throwing away each women after every night one night stand, I mean isn't that forming a cycle just like, she's gonna divorce.

Daisy: What about those women feelings? Do you think that they're chattels?

Luke: Hey, I don't, I'm not talking about one night stands here, I'm talking several nights, you know, several...

Vivian: Several nights...

Luke: Several nights to work out some sort of like rapport with the person, I mean, the initial rapport, like in a bar, night club or something. And maybe you'll have a bit of rapport, and you'll go home and get you get, more, more of a rapport...

Vivian: And the next night you just can't send her home, so you (Daisy: Yeah) have another night with her?

Luke: Yeah, but I'll know, I'll so.

Daisy: What's the criteria you're judging these women on, well, I mean, do you find out if they can cook or do you find out if they can do your laundry well enough? Or if they can iron? or you know...

Luke: No, no, no, no, I mean, just like a, you know, little things like compatibility things just like, just things they might say or do or maybe they just.., like certain things about them. It has nothing to do with that. I said before, I think I said that before.

Vivian: How they perform in bed?

Vivian: So why don't you be more specific? What about what they say or do or what...

Luke: Well, I don't know, like if I say something to them, and I think that, that one thing they would say would be really funny, and then they say something totally different. That's a sure sign that maybe it's not meant to be, like I want someone who's kind of like a mirror reflection of me, as a woman, and I don't think that's asking too much.

Daisy: Why don't you marry your mirror?

Vivian: And you're not answering in the question. Why you have to conform to society's ideal picture? Where you have to find that other love in your life and marry them? I mean why can't you live a life like me? I have a, nice job and I'm satisfied with what I do and have many friends and I have a companion, I have a companion, but we've come to mutual understanding that we will not marry but we're still, we're so committed to each other.

Daisy: And your in a monogamous relationship, right, she's having sex with one person, they're happy, but they don't want, they, their relationship (Luke: But) excuse me, is on a completely different spiritual plane (Vivian: and...) they don't need the signature on the dotted line.

Vivian: And ... since we're not restricted to your morality rules, we can probably get divorced any time we want to, huh?

Luke: Well, I just think you're full of hot air though I think you just like, I think you're just talking, I mean it's like "oh we have this big thing and it's a spiritual plane. Well, put your money where your mouth is and sign the dotted line?

Daisy: Oh Ye who has no partner.

Luke: Hey, at least I'm looking, and I know what I'm looking for.

Vivian: And a blank dotted line.

Luke: Yeah, but at least, I know what I'm looking for.

Vivian: I know what I'm looking for; I've found what I'm looking for.

Luke: So marry it.

Vivian: I don't wanna marry it, I'm happy I am, I am perfectly satisfied, I'm not insecure enough to need that signature, I have his signatures all over...

Bow: Yes you are, yes you are, that's why you're not doing it (Luke: right).

Vivian: Why, why?

Daisy: You guys have no idea what you are talking about.

Bow: You're just gonna be a, a black sheep in society, people are not gonna respect you (Vivian: Exactly that's exactly what I'm talking about) as a couple and it seems like you just you have no respect for society, because you're just gonna living sin, and then once you guys are...

Vivian: Why is it sin? Living in sin? Why must I conform to...?

Daisy: Sin? Sin, don't go there Bow-, sin? Excuse me, who's been sinning Bow?

Vivian: Go back to your synagogue.

Bow: What?

Luke: People gonna laugh at you guys, you know.

Vivian: Why, What is conforming to society? Why must you conform to... this ideal that society upholds to you.

Bow: Do you always have to be a rebel? You always have to be deviant?

Vivian: Yeah, I'm a rebel without a cause.

Daisy: And you!!

Bow: No, and then the first time that you have, like a small little tiff then anyone can just leave and that's the end of the relationship, and then what do you do? You are either left alone, or you have to do go and do the same thing over again. You have your one night stand and do all this disgusting stuff?

Vivian: I, you know what, you know that I've never had, I've never cheated out my man, and ...

Bow: How would I know?

Vivian: And you know what I just said, yes, exactly, I don't have that piece of paper, that holds us together, and bonds us together, we have our own respect and the trust that we have with each other...

Bow: It's a facade.

Vivian: Facade?

Daisy: I'll tell you what, facade, facade. Well, here you go. I mean, I've been married for five years and what am I seeking after five years, of this marital bliss that you guys are talking about. I'm seeking freedom, absolutely, I want freedom, I want the freedom to go here and go there and then to come home when I want to. And if I wanna bring him home then that's who I'll bring home that's what I'm seeking. I want freedom. I want control over my life, I don't want anyone whether it be the government, or men to tell me what to do.

Luke: O.K. Fair enough. But you gotta understand that it won't be like that forever, I mean you're not gonna want it once you get it again, you're not gonna want that kind of freedom, you're gonna, you're gonna seek out the kind of freedom that all people really want deep down inside whether they acknowledge it or not. And that is the freedom to fully give of themselves to another person and to be bonded forever in holy matrimony.

Vivian: Well, I'll agree, up to everything you said, except the holy matrimony, the last two words, why holy matrimony, why do you need that piece of paper, sorry, you don't...

Bow: Course you think like that, you're like a satanist, you're living in sin.

Vivian: Oh, my goodness.

Daisy: Oh, he who he who has not sinned throw the first, stone.

Bow: What're you talking about? You married your high school sweetheart, that's the only girl you were ever with, look at that, they've been together, how many, how many years like.., like...

Vivian: And the other woman he's invited into their bedrooms.

Bow: We've lost our virginities together.

Daisy: Excuse me; there are many mansions in the lords house.

Bow: What?

Vivian: Speechless, hey?

Luke: Well, I don't know.

Daisy: He who is sitting there telling us about, religion, and holy vows, you've breaking yours several times already.

Bow: Oh yeah, well people who live in glass houses take showers in the basement alright?

Daisy: Ha Ha.

Luke: Come on, let's not throw stick and stones at each other, guys! Let's get together on this.

Daisy: Well the problem is that we have fundamental differences here. I believe that I should be in control of my freedom and I don't want a man to dictate that, and Viv, Viv just wants to be able to have her relationship on her own terms.

Luke: O.K. well, this shouldn't become a battle of the sexes; I don't wanna sound like I coming off preaching as a man to a woman, I'm just talking about like...

Daisy: Well you are.

Luke: Well, I'm just talking about like, well, but, just because I'm a man, but if I was a woman saying this to you, would you feel that, you know, you're being railed at by another woman, no, just because I'm a man, that doesn't mean that, doesn't meant that, I'm trying to take the male view point and try to lord things over you. I'm just saying that my point of view is that, love is eternal and love is great, it's the only thing, love redeems alt, it's the most important thing, and marriage make it real.

Vivian: This is the man that said that it is O.K. for man to hit a woman. You know why...

Luke: I didn't say it was O.K.

Bow: But it is.

Daisy: Luke, Luke, you would agree with me that this society is a patriarchal society, right?

Luke: To a degree.

Daisy: To a degree. Which degree would that be?

Luke: To a large degree.

Daisy: O.K. and women when they enter the institution of marriage, they are, whether they do it subconsciously or consciously, expected to perform a certain role, and they fall into that role, because the society wants them to fall into that role, and I don't, except that, I reject that, I, I absolutely reject that, I'm looking for something more in my life, I don't want to be another statistic in society. I've already made myself that. I'm a divorce, or almost. I don't wanna be this woman who cooks and cleans and is bare-foot and pregnant for someone, for somebody who doesn't even appreciate it.

Vivian: And the reason why it is pointless to point this out to Bow and Luke, is because, you guys are stuck in your own little worlds over there, and Bow, you're not even married, you haven't even found your companion, do you?

Bow: I am married.

Vivian: Oh, I'm sorry, Luke, Luke, you haven't even found your companion, you're still going out there night after night, banging this girl and that, and...

Luke: Hey, hey, hey, hey.

Vivian: OK. You say that you want to make this commitment. After you've made that step then come back to us and preach to us, okay?

Luke: Alright, look. I think I can be allowed to dream, I mean, I'm just, I'm just, of course, we're all just giving our opinions on these things.

Vivian: Dream weaver.

Luke: I'm not saying, I'm not trying to come off as being condescending and trying to preach or lord anything over anybody, I'm just saying that like, sometimes you have to look at things beyond yourself, you have to, you have to, have faith in something that's bigger that yourself.

Daisy: Please do that. Please look beyond yourself here.

Luke: Well, I'm trying to.

Vivian: You know I could look at it from your point of you and you say, look at you, you hypocritical prick, go and find yourself a companion, go and get married. Why don't you get married. Why haven't you found your, found your other love your other companion.

Daisy: And what about, how many girls are we talking about here? How many in general terms?

Vivian: And what girl, if I happened to be that girl, I wouldn't want you, because you're dirty now, you're filthy dirty, (Luke: Hey, hey...) you’ve been with every other girl on the block, you are used property and nobody wants to buy used cars anymore, they just don't run like they used to.

Daisy: Why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free?

Luke: Come on, don't turn this on me, alright? I'm doing my thing with...

Vivian: You know you're doing your thing.

Luke: I and, and don't get the wrong idea about what I'm doing, either. It's a, it's a very chaste situation I'm doing.

Vivian: Honorable?

Luke: Yeah. I'm very honorable, I'm a gentleman, damn it.

Daisy: Well, gentleman, well, O.K. I'm not, I'm neither a gentleman or lady, and I'm proud of that, because I am who I am. I wanna be free to experience things and whether that means, me being with either a man in marriage, or woman in a marriage, I wanna be free to explore all avenues.

Luke: So, what you're gonna be a lesbian now?

Bow: You're a lesbian like your sisters?

Luke: .lust because your marriage doesn't work out? See, this is what I'm talking about. People go off these roads less travelled, that are really just deviant, and really not right, and don't contribute to the procreation of human kind.

Daisy: Well, maybe.

Vivian: What makes it not right?

Luke: Because the divorce, the divorce, the divorce makes...

Daisy: I travelled the road less travelled and that made all the difference.

Luke: No, that's not how it goes.

Vivian: And what if Daisy, were not to get a divorce, what if she weren't to get a divorce, but still seek out other mates, like Bow, in his righteous marriage is doing right now.

Bow: No. I didn't seek out other mates. I just said that the.., my significant other.

Vivian: You said, you said bring it on!

Bow: I accepted her proposal if that would spice up and bring some creativity to the bedroom, that's all, and the bedroom is only one aspect of the marriage, there's so many other aspects of it, you haven't even touched on it.

Daisy: Did it hurt you? Did it hurt you, though; Bow, when she is screaming another man's name?

Bow: That is a little painful but, something that I can get over, well, I mean, I'm doing it for the, ultimate goal of, keeping the marriage together, I mean, it0s hard work like people say, but...

Daisy: I've got this, you know, I have this problem here, I think, Bow, is more concerned with the marriage than he is with the relationship.

Luke:   No, no, no.

Vivian: And upholding the image of how it looks to other people.

Bow: That is part of it, but that, you are totally missing the point, there's so much more to it than that, we have an understanding between each other, which, you guys seem like, obviously will don't understand and never understand.

Vivian: No. because I'm saying the same thing to you, I have an understanding with my companion (Bow: No, that's not an understanding).

Vivian: I mean, so, why can't you not be with each other and have, actually, which is the most innocent, and most simple kind of love, is the understanding and the trust that you have with each other. Which come to the question, what is love? What is your understanding of love? Having a piece of paper? Vows (Luke: No.) in front of a preacher? (Luke: No.) Then what is your idea of love?

Luke: The vows come after the love. The vows and the paper are just a sort; of, sort of, an affirmation and Public statement like.

Vivian: A seal of approval.

Luke: Yeah, O.K. it can mean that if you like it, but, I mean, the bottom line is love is what love is, and I mean and I guess it's just it's different to. different people, well I mean. I guess, I just, I have a deeper understating of it, and that's all.

Vivian: I think that's exactly what the problem is; the definition of love is so different for all of us, that we're coming at opposite ends of each other. Bow, apparently thinks that love is the fulfillment of (Daisy: Marriage, marriage) society's ideal of marriage, and having, creating that perfect home and family well, Luke is still searching to fulfill those shoes, and Daisy, here thinks she thought that she was conforming, and then that was probably the right thing to do, but comes to realize that she has evolved into a different person and this may not be exactly what she was looking for. She was a little too, eager to maybe step into the role that society has expected of her.

Daisy: Well, you know, I guess, look, all I can say is that, when I went into this, I was young, and I really didn't know what I know now, I thought I was in love with this guy, I thought I knew this guy, I didn't know this guy. And he just wasn't, how can I say? I really, he just couldn't satisfy me, in many ways, physically, spiritually, and on a emotional level. I feel I've grown, and I feel that he hasn't grown. And I'm at this place in my life right now, where I'm feeling, boxed in. I feel like I can't breath I want to break free. I want to be on my own. I want that freedom. I'm seeking essentially freedom. That's what I'm looking for and I know that I'm not gonna be able to find it with my husband. I want to move on. I'm ready to move on. This is my right of passage in my life. This is my epiphany.., if you like.

Luke: Okay. I understand where you're coming from and um, I feel for you. I have a great amount of compassion, for your situation, and I don't wanna come off as being vindictive or anything. And I just hope that what, what we've spoken about here, will maybe sway you back to the side of, of love, and to the side of, of that holy institution of marriage. Because you had a bad experience. You weren't the first one, I mean, many people have had these experience. I've had them myself. I didn't take it as far of course, but I mean, we all have had. We've all loved and lost. We've all had, you know, love unrequited, but I think that the thing is that we should all hopefully come away with it at the end of this discussion, is that love conquers all. And we should never give up on it.

Bow: I think the marriage is on many different levels and there are problems on certain levels, and you just have to solve those problem where you can. You guys are totally off, way off base with what you're talking about and I think you should reconsider your opinions.

Vivian: Speaking of way of bases is you, Bow. I mean with your sanctuary love and your devoted family and this and that, and then you go off and invite other people into your bedroom? That's what I just call ridiculous, O.K. you don't need a piece of paper to say that you are going to be together forever, that's just a piece of paper, and if you love each other, and trust each other and have an enough respect for each other, you don't need anything to say that yes we give you permission to be together.

Daisy: But I still love you guys.

Luke: Yeah, I guess that's the bottom line.

Bow: Love conquers all.

Vivian: We're still friends, O.K.

2. Abortion and Sexual Education

SIDE A


Ok, today we're talking about a real sensitive issue. It's abortion and of course sexual education, it all kinds of, you know, combines into each other.

Vivian: This is Viv.
Daisy: Yeap! This is Daisy. Yes, a very heated topic. I don't know what do you think. Bow.
Bow: This is Bow! It's short for Bow Seaffas. Anyway, I think this is a hot topic all over the world. So let's dig our heels in and get going.
Luke: Yeah, the life-giving force that we all have inside of us, that procreative impulse, that just seems to keep on going like a spark that can never be snuffed out. Let's rap gang.

Vivian: Hello everyone welcome and uh let's introduce ourselves.

Luke: How are you doing? This is Luke!

Bow: And I am Bow!

Daisy: And I am Daisy!

Vivian: And this is Viv!

Vivian: Today's topic is sexual education. Let's start off by saying, hey, where did you guys start off? I mean, how'd you

get your sexual education?

Daisy: Well, urn, well, actually I was kind of brought up in a very strict Catholic family and my mother was very reluctant to tell me about anything. Actually, my funny story, my sister asked me to go to the store and buy her some tampons. And I had never heard this word before, didn't even know what they were. So I went to the shop and I asked the guy for some tampons, and he gave them to me. Looking at these tiny little, cotton things and thinking, what the hell are these? I had no idea. So I gave them to my sister and asked her what they were. And she said, "Ask mom." And then I, urn, asked my mother and she wouldn't tell me for like two months. I kept hounding her, so she gave me this book that was like published in the sixties. And it still have pictures of women that use to wear those sanitary belts that they attached sanitary napkins, too. And I couldn't understand any of the words, I didn't even know what a penis or a vagina was.

Vivian: Oh! Daisy. This is brutal!

Daisy: And I was pronouncing the word, as "Penis," and "Vagina." And my cousin came to visit me, he was like talking about sex. And I said "I know what sex is." And he said, "No, you don't. What is it?" And I said, "well, it's when a man puts his penis in the women's vagina."

Vivian: Can I ask how old you were when you in first like.

Daisy: When I got this? I was probably 10 or 11 I guess. (Vivian: Really?)

Vivian: What about school education?

Bow: Urn. There was an attempt at educating students when I was, I guess, in grade four or five. I must have been just pre-pubescent at that time. (Vivian: Right) 12, Thereabouts, 11 or 12. They would take all the boys and shuttle them into another room and they would leave all the other girls in the classroom that they were in. And then the gym instructor would take us all and explain basic things very nervously. He was a gym instructor. He was about physical education. He was, part of his job description was not teaching a bunch of horny pre-pubescent boys about sex. But, um, because the curriculum had changed, he sort of got stuck with the job. And I mean it's, it's kind of stupid. I mean it should, it has to be done. But the thing is by that time, a lot of kids really do know quite a bit about sex. Just because they have older brothers or sisters who sort of fill them in or stuff, um, or their friends do and they've learned stuff from their friends in a lot of cases. So I kind of knew a lot of stuff, but it still was good to have that. I think because it sort of, am, solidified a lot of things, just so that you wouldn't be embarrassed if it ever came up like, I know there's a lot of tension for me, because there were a lot of spaces missing in the whole sex thing that I wanted to get like, you know, get smart with eventually before I actually was gonna be with a girl. I didn't wanna like just get there and be like "doh", I've never learned that part, you know. So it is not necessary. (Daisy: They told you that?) No, I need not to study the general things, you don't wanna go into it, you know, your big romantic first encounter and end up looking like a spasm, just because you, you didn't want, you know, ask your buddy. What's that for? How do you use that or whatever.

Vivian: What about the parental aspects? I mean, did your parents ever like come in and ask you or tell you anything?

Luke: My father would sometimes come up to me, and ask me if there was anything that I wanted to know, that I was curious about. Is there any, you know, sort of things that you're, you know, you'll probably, you know, starting to become a man now? Is there anything that you're curious about? Wanna know about? Of course for me, I was just ' No, that's all right. Dad, I'm fine. And he said like, All Right. Great, see what's on TV. That was good enough for us.

Vivian: And then week, he'd come back.

Luke: Just make, just let you know, you know, I'm here, if you do wanna talk about this stuff, if you don't, that's probably, you know, just as good if not better. (Daisy: That's great.)

Bow: He was available for that.

Vivian: How about you Bow?

Bow: Um, my sexual education was a little bit warped. I think it, kind of all most make me uh, deviant almost because of it. Because it was kind of in uh, little, clips of things. So like I guess, Luke was saying it was for.., fourth grade or fifth grade. You start to think about it when it happens and... There are some, you know, promiscuous people in that grade too. Sure they are. There was, this couple they were supposedly going out and there's rumor that they had, had sex. So then, everyone in that grade was like really interested in what happened, what happened. And they said, well they did it. And then they both got sick. So, we thought that, that's like what happen after you do it, you know, too early or something you get sick. But then like the second part of it was after that, I actually, caught my parents doing it. It just like walked into the room and I thought like my dad was hurting my mother. So I said "Dad, you're hurting mom." And he said, "No, just go back to bed. We're OK!" And then where it gets worse is because I went to a Catholic school. They kind of masked sex education as health, in health class. You take health. But you're taught sex education by a really big and fat ninety-year-old nun who says if anybody laughs, I'm gonna whack you on the back of your head. People laughed and I laughed and then she said like this is the penis and this is the vagina... Boom! you got whacked in the back of your head. So now I like uh, when I have relations I feel like I'm gonna get whacked in the back of my head in a minute.

Daisy: Which you do anyway!

Bow: Turns me on.

Luke: It still true that I feel if you laugh during any sort of sexual stuff, you usually get a slap in a face.

Vivian: Are we talking from experience here, right?

Luke: Oh, yes, sure. I haven't had sex, yet.

Bow: Oh yeah sure. So, but I'm think uh, nowadays, like I sound like a real dad like: "When I was back in school," but, it's true like I think people are more aware of it, at least in North America, and they're making it a priority their kins take this sexed. As a whole class not as under the guise of health class.

Vivian: Right. I think in the past ten, maybe 15 years, especially in the American school system with the addition of sex education. It may not necessarily be a class you can select it as an elective when you enter high school. But usually you get this class during the end of your elementary or beginning of your junior high years, you get a couple of classes with the health teacher or the nurse. And they teach you, you know, all the basic functions of the body including, you know, all the sexual parts, and that has changed the educational system a lot. As matter of fact, there's lots of parents who are totally against having sexed in school. They don't like the fact of the school teaching it and so usually you get parental permission before your child can enter that class.

Daisy: Well, when I'm, I was in elementary school, um, I went to a Catholic school. And they didn't teach it in the school but what they did to satisfy the parents who wanted the education was have all the kids go to the local church after school. And sit down while the priest and the nun gave us sex education. Which is ironic.

Vivian: That sounds similar to Bow's situation.

Luke: That's why that, you know. Catholic school girls have such a bad reputation cause they do just the opposite of what they are not supposed to do.

Vivian: Exactly.

Daisy: But, um, basically, just the biological functions they taught us, you know, woman menstruate. And this is what happens and then when I went to high school I had a class like that it was called health. They were very liberal they taught us about contraception, sexual diseases, everything from drugs, tobacco, alcohol, all those things that you know I guess kids are tempted by. And I thought it was good. Actually, I found the class very interesting because I never had that education in elementary school, and I know more I think about those things like sexual diseases than any of my friends do because I remember that. I think it's really important to teach kids that, and give them that sexual education.

Bow: The thing that's um, strange are the statistics like today, because you know, say from the forties for example to the sixties, or late fifties even though sex education it was kind of weird talk about it and it was really scientific and stuff, but there was less teenage pregnancy then, than there is now when they're really adamant about teaching these things in school. So like is it just that the kids are not listening or do they think they no more than more people? I don't know.

Luke: I think it's that, I think the reason that parents are against it is because they think that their children are becoming educated about the wrong things at too early an age, but the truth is that kids are growing up they're, they're maturing a lot faster. (Daisy: Right. Much more promiscuous than they used to be.) Not necessarily pre-mascuous, but I mean that they come of, they sort of come of age a little earlier and they, urn, they go through these changes a little earlier and the thing is they are going to get, they are gonna get educated, they are gonna learn about sex, they're gonna be curious about it, from a young age. It's probably better that like they learn about it on TVs and movies and music, and on the Internet. But they don't have that sort of, urn, educational aspect, and sort of like what you should do, maybe and what you shouldn't do. That's why sex education it's not like they're gonna, just go through life, not even hearing about sex, not wondering about it or curious about it, if they don't get sex education. But the sex education is good in that, it sort of says now just be smarter about it, you know, like put this on or use this or like maybe, maybe it's better to wait. You got to think of your options and if they won't get that out of a school setting, they just get sex is dirty, it's kinda interesting. They're just curious about it and they want to learn about it.

Vivian: For me, you know, my parents never sat me down, even to these day, we've never talked about that topic. I mean, we never had that birds and the bees little talk that everyone get. So my first contact with that kind of information was in elementary school, just like Luke said, we had the little class where the school nurse actually took you aside, and separated you and told you about the anatomy. Perhaps the girls could, you know, run into their menstrual cycle any time soon now. You should go talk to parents. And they gave us this little sample of the sanitary napkins. So when I first ran into my little accident, you know, I had that little sample that the teacher gave me and so 'Thank God!' You know, cause my mom and I never talked about that. And then my second encounter with that sort of information was in junior high, when we had the health class that Daisy was talking about. We had the health class where we talked about all sorts of things starting with drugs and going down to, you know, the aca-, uh, anatomy and sex and what not, and I think when you're younger, because children talk, uh, she went out with so and so and they did this and that, of course, you know, the movies and videos all sorts of information that you get on TV. There's a lot of things that aren't factual but you know lots of rumor things that you think may be true and sexual education kind of reinforces what you know, and what may not be factual and a lot of myths get cleared out of the way, you know, about STDs, and AIDS and drugs and getting this disease and that of course pregnancy and what not.

Bow: Urn, yeah, O.K. But, I think, uh, one of the things that you're saying is that you're unfortunate to not have the talk with your parents, like everybody does, I don't think many people do get that talk actually. I think it's very rare that people do and I think like the movie "American Pie," that's why it was so funny with the father "Eugene Levvy" like "Son here's a couple of magazines for you." Everybody could relate to that, because that's what parents do. I think it's just kind of weird to talk to your kids about and they try to do it, cause they think it's their duty, but it doesn't really help. I don't think so.

Daisy: I think it's just probably; it's a really awkward thing. Because you know a mother-daughter or father-son relationship is, you know, extremely sensitive where that area is concerned. A mother doesn't or father doesn't want his daughter to be, you know, even having sexual feelings. So I think it's very difficult for them, but that's why I think, urn, because they're families like that, that do have difficulties discussing those things, that it is absolutely, urn, of the utmost importance, that education be in schools, compulsory. The government should make that the law whether parents don't like it or not especially in this day and age. I don't care what country you're in, even if you're in Korea, and they say there's no AIDS which is just, just misinformation, you know, there are, other sexual diseases out there, that can stay with you for life, and you know, that might not be life threatening but they are not certainly not comfortable, and you know, there's AIDS, there's... Oh, there're so many different things. (Vivian: STDs, sure) You know, other than pregnancy to worry about (Luke: Psychological things) Sure.

Vivian: I definitely agree with Daisy, there. That's definitely true and then also it doesn't just rely on the government or the schools. People always say, hey, it starts with the home and it really does, and for example, I mean, if you were to put yourself in those same shoes, if I had a daughter or a son, I mean, I eventually know I have to talk to them, sure, this is the position that many parents are put in is. I need eventually talk to my child about something like this but "Are they there yet", so it's kind of like, kind of, you know, test you out, maybe test out the waters by coming out and saying... "So, is there any thing you wanna talk about?" kind of like in Luke's situation. But then of course the kids in the same situation were there, it's an awkward topic for them, too. And so they're not gonna say, yeah. Dad actually I wanna know about this. So they just keep avoiding the topic. So you never end up talking about it even though your child maybe 16, 18, 20. You never want to admit to yourself. Oh, my child is sexually active or is going to be, and so you never wanna really go in and you know. Yes, Bow.

Bow: Um, yeah, that’s exactly right. That's how I felt when I first had my daughter, and I thought "oh" I'm just gonna be a strict dad and she's never gonna have sex, she's not gonna be with boys and all this stuffs. And then I met, uh, another father, who has a similar situation. We called him a Cooter. Cooter's opinion was that, that's so stupid. I mean she's just gonna rebel against you even more, she gonna become like a prostitute, she's gonna do it for money, you know it's just a natural res.., res.., natural thing, you know. That's what people do.

Vivian: God forbid your daughter does that ten years from now.

Bow: Yeah, ok. But um, anyway I kind of realized, you're exactly right, and I can't do that, I can't like, you know lock her up, and put a chastity belt on her, or get the chastity rings... I just have to kind of try to raise her, naturally in hope like she'll be smart enough to make her own decisions. (Daisy: Hope that she has good judgment)

Vivian: I definitely think that the more informed you are, the smarter you are, think about it, when you look at two 18-year-olds, for example, and you have one that is very much educated and aware of her surroundings, and current events and what not. One that is not so much aware of everything and informed. When you see the ignorance and the naivete of one child versus the other, you know, that person that has more knowledge, you know, yeah they're, they know what's going on, but then also they're gonna be, more aware of the bad things and they are gonna be smart about their choices and decisions versus the ones that are not so aware and so out of curiosity and ignorance she's gonna go in there and most likely be in a lot more dangerous situations.

Luke: I think all kids respond to, uh, to just frankness and openness. And it's really hard to do with a topic like that, but I find that like coddling kids and just going like goo-goo ga-ga and stuff often they're just like, OK, someone's making stupid voices to me. That's not how they really talk when they're among themselves, so I think they'd really respond to, to a subject like that which is very sensitive if you can just show them you're comfortable talking about it like at an early age even if you are not. If you can just sort of I don't know be open about that stuff, be available to talk about those sort of things. I think it wouldn't be such, such a hard thing to talk about because it really is a natural thing, you know it's such an obvious thing and it's just all this other sort of social conditions that make it sort of dodge to talk about, you know.

Vivian: And who here at the age of 15 or 16, didn't think that they were mature enough or adult enough to hear something like this, when your parents do talk to you like that you're "Yeah, whatever", and then it just makes you revolt against them more, when they speak to you at such a level, you know, when they if your parents had actually talking you at the age of 15 and sat you aside and sai. "Hey, you're an adult now, you're mature enough to listen to this. Hey, let's just talk to each other like adults. This is how it is, and if you're gonna get involved or I would prefer that you don't let me know this is how it goes. If they are very frank with you, I mean, I honestly think that, yeah, I would probably respond, not only with that, you know, the whole sexual aspects but with many other aspects as well, at a much more mature level. And probably grown up a little bit.

Bow: You're saying that if your parents were frank with you then (Vivian: Yeah, I'm just) I disagree with that. (Vivian: You do why?) Because I think the point that you made that teenagers, urn, do think that they are mature because of that reason they don't wanna listen to anybody. And I think you don't realize that until you become an adult, and I think if you're frank with them, yeah, they could be "yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever."

Daisy: Yeah, but it depends on the attitude that you have towards them, I mean if you're treating your children like a baby the entire time, I mean that, (Luke: And suddenly come up and say, OK, let's talk about the birds and bees.) Exactly.

Luke: I mean you have to open with them even from a young age like just sort of let them know like "this is what makes girls girls, this is makes boys boys," and like start at the really basic stuff like that, I mean.

Vivian: Cause the entire raising the child experience is an educational thing from very the beginning it leads gradually, and slowly, and eventually toward the sex education thing as well.

Bow: OK thanks. I'll remember that.

Daisy: Well, you know, I just think that we're so way beyond on this discussion I don't think it's even about how we approach it with out kids any more. I think it should be forced down their throats. I think whether the government has to do that, the school has to do that, or the parents, it should be made some law that makes it compulsory. Because I am not, I don't want my child, if, even if she can't talk to me even if I have a great relationship with my child, if he or she can't talk to me, I wanna know she's getting that information somewhere else. (Vivian: Right) Because it's just way to dangerous. You take Korea, for an example, you know, here's a country that has basically, my niece, I asked what she gets in school. And they're still just giving them the biological processes, you menstruate, the penis is inserted into the vagina and so on, and so on, so on. And she really knows nothing about how to protect herself from pregnancy. She doesn't know anything about sexual diseases. She still thinks, and so does the rest of Korea, which just makes me insanely angry, that you can get AIDS by drinking out of the same cup as someone, you know, I mean, it's just misinformation, and the thing, this is a country that has nightclubs that have professional, you know, dm, hookers working there. And it's not just Korea. It's the rest of Asia as well, and urn, it's ok to have hookers working in nightclubs as, you know, girls that peel your fruit or pour your drink. But it's not ok to teach the rest of the country that you need to wear a condom that you need to protect yourself, that there's AIDS, there's other sexual diseases out there.

Luke: What are the names of those night clubs?

Vivian: Anyways, I do have to agree with Daisy on one point is the actual amount of education you are getting and at what age, too. As I was saying before, I learned about the anatomy in elementary school. But then like said especially when you are at that age you're very sensitive and you hear a lot of information and that's not actually factual, a lot of it is, just a lot of gossip that kids pass around. Hey, if you do this, you get this. This happens to you such and such. Literally, ninety percent of it is all false, I mean, its false information and you should be informed with factual information whether it’s from school, or homes or whatever. And even to this day, even from adults that I speak to, my friends. There's a lot of people that are totally misinformed about certain things, I mean, they may know it up to a certain point, but then that they don't know the, the rest of it. You know, I mean I'm talking about 30-year-old adults who don't know the, the entire picture, you know, and I mean, when these children are going up to junior high and they know basically the, the little skeleton, but they don't know the meaty part of it, and then they hear all these rumors. Even though, you think you're supposed to know you're not so sure, and when you hear these rumors. Oh, that must be true, I mean, if they get factual information instead of being misinformed by their peers, wouldn't that change a lot of things.

Luke: Sure. I was growing up, uh, a lot of, uh, people that I knew who were starting to experiment with sex under the understanding that you couldn't get pregnant the first time. And you couldn't get pregnant if you did it in a certain position, if the girl was on top or something. So that was sort of a form of birth control, you know. I wonder how many people got themselves in a lot of trouble. It's the first time. Forget about it.

Bow: Girls believe that. You win there.

Vivian: I have a totally prime example; this is just something recent that I had recently read. I heard that in Korea a form of, I think, I don't know, if it was Korea or America whatever, but maybe twenty years ago, a form of birth control was pulling out before the male ejaculated. (Luke: It helps.) It helps, yeah, but that is not 100 percent. That is not (Daisy: Coitus interrupt us) contraception. That is totally not, you know, and I was trying to explain, no actually. You know, it leaks out a little bit, and then also even, and that's totally not contraception. And then the second fact which wasn't a fact was, um, there were many women that were confused as to when you're menstruating if you have intercourse, you couldn't get pregnant, or when you're menstruating that was the time when you do get, you know, pregnant, which was true. And so they were confused as to which was actually true. And so that is very dangerous information to have, if you are on the wrong side of.

Daisy: Well, that's the rhythm method, and that's what the Catholic Church tried to get everybody to use it and that's why Catholic parents have so many children. (Luke: That's why it's the main religion in Christianity.)

Vivian: If you're to go to a doctor, ask him if this is true or not, he probably would laugh in your face, because, first of all, this is not a way to, you know, protect yourself, and perhaps if you don't wanna conceive children that is not the way to go about things. And second, it isn't true, you know, I mean that is totally false information.

Luke: But it's hard, if people don't, if kids don't have anywhere to go to other than friends' who also don't know the score, and if parents aren't really forthcoming with that kind of information and they don't get it in the schools, like where are they gonna get it.

Daisy: That's why, you know, I urge, you know parents to go and join their PTA to write their local member to get their governments to do something to make it compulsory in schools.

Bow: I think it is actually in the States (Luke: It is.) (Vivian: In America) the problem is, with that is, even though like anything else, US history is compulsory, but you gotta, a lot of kids in the poor neighborhoods don't go to school. (Daisy: Right) So they are not showing up for the class, you know.

Daisy: Well that's why I think that there needs to be some type of standard in, you know, in sex education in schools, and as Bow said, you know, of course there are the poor kids, you know, in poor neighborhood that aren't getting that education. But there are you know, I, I, the government even in the states, is trying to do things about that I mean, they've got welfare offices set up and people that go out, they talk to women who are single mothers having children and give them information about, you know, how to protect themselves both from sexual disease, and pregnancy. And I think it has to be a national effort in any country that you live in. If you have children and you're not involved, then you're not doing enough. You have to go, you have to write to your local member. You have to go to the village meeting, discuss these things they're important. And if you're not involved, then if your child does get pregnant then you are responsible for that.

Vivian: And I think this eventually leads to another question that is actually a very hot issue, especially in the western countries these days. I mean, what if all of this sexual education, it didn't work out in the end. Hey, what if, uh, it just didn't work out the way you wanted it for, your daughter or son? What if they did get pregnant or what if they got someone else pregnant, they'd been a situation where what? They may be students and they couldn't finish their education or they'd be force to have home education. There is a lot of situations going on out there. And of course even as a young adult or an elder adult, you may get pregnant and that is not the situation that you had planned on. There are some options out there for you and they're difficult options, and we can discuss some of the options first, and see how we all feel about this, um, obviously the topic is adopt.., um, I'm sorry, adoption? Ok. Those are one of the choices, yeah, that's one of the choices, but abortion. It is a really hot steamy issue, lots of people get very urn, sensitive about this one, so let's start off by saying like where we kind of stand. Are you pro? Or Are you against abortion? Are you for abortion? And second let's talk about the choices that are involved with that. You wanna start up Bow? Are you (Bow: Me?) Luke?

Bow: Um, I think that.

Vivian: What side are you on first?

Bow: I don't choose either side, I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. But I do, I believe that, um, there shouldn't be an abortion if people are, can be responsible, if they have the ability to be responsible, but they're just choosing not to be because oh, it's gonna be so hard on me. I don't agree with that. I agree in extreme situations where depending on how that child is gonna be raised, if the child is gonna grow up to be, you know, raised in a terrible environment then maybe the best choice would be to, you know, go ahead for the abortion. Um, if it had to do with a mother's health, um, basically yes.

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Vivian: OK. Let's, let's get back to that in a little, in a minute here. We can talk about the details. OK, Daisy. Do you wanna tell us where you stand?

Daisy: OK. Well, actually I just wanna to ask Bow a question. Um, I just wanna to ask him if you do have like obviously I understand what you're saying and probably pretty much most peoples' views are the same, but how could you make a law to make a standard for that type of thing, how could you say: it's ok for this person to have an abortion but it's not ok for a woman in her thirties who's not married, but has the financial ability to have a child?

Vivian: There's a wide grey area.

Bow: Yeah, I don't know, it's, I don't, I'm not a law maker, I don't know that is still uh, just, uh, just my opinion. That's what I think, (Vivian: Exactly) and I, it should be talked about more. People that do make laws and people that do make theirs, you know, who have these problems and these situations come up, and we should be talked about.

Luke: But you're basically pro-choice, but you don't think you don't feel that, that it should be used as a form of birth-control for example. (Vivian: It shouldn't be abused.)

Bow: If you have to label it, but I think, you know within the label of pro- choice or extreme pro-choice people, and there are extreme pro-life. But I'm more you know, in the middle of both of those.

Luke: Of course, I would say the same. I would say that I'm definitely pro- choice, but I think that yeah, abortion is not something that you just, you just, sort of do for the heck of it. But I don't think, I don't think that's any human, in a person's nature, I mean, if someone's gonna, gonna have a child, a woman is, obviously, is gonna have the child, there's gonna be some kind of attachment to, and some kind of like psychological factor there. That doesn't make it an easy decision in any, in any situation. I think if it's a repeated thing, if it's, it happens continually, there's a obviously problem there and I don't know, it's hard to regulate that (Bow: Yeah) but I also, I don't think that someone who's definitely not ready, and not interested in raising a child and isn't gonna give a 100%, or isn't just like, mentally and emotionally prepared for that, for that to happen. I don't know if it's if it's a wise move and if there not, if they're not fully committed to it. That's the first sign that it's, uh, no, shouldn't do it, shouldn't be done, shouldn't happen, do the abortion, give the child, like a fair shot a having a real life kind of thing.

Vivian: So both you guys are kind of in the pro-choice section but not very, you know, (Daisy: Pro-life) right.

Bow: I don't think for the extreme pro-choice people who say like, uh, it's gonna ruin my career and this kind of thing, if that person has confidence in themselves, and I believe that they could rise above that, they could take care of a child, and then, I think once that they started to raise the child and they could, people do it all the time, they have careers and they raise children, they become successful. And the children go to college and they become successful, and become a great member of society. But did you say like to look ahead into the future and say no, this is just gonna ruin everything for me, so, I'm just gonna, you know, cut this embryo out, and it's nothing, it doesn't mean anything, but I believe that the, um, pro-, extreme pro-choicers say that it's not a life yet and, but I don't believe, I believe it is a life, it's not a human yet. But it is, it is life, like every cell in your body's life, plants are life, you know. So that's my opinion. (Luke: Yeah)

Vivian: OK, Daisy. Where do you stand? Do you have a firm stand on either way?

Daisy: Well, I'm definitely pro-choice. I believe that abortion should be, should be legal. But for different reasons. Not because I don't believe that a fetus is, urn, not a baby yet. I believe exactly the same thing that Brandan does, not because I believe that a fetus is not a baby at that point, I do believe it is a baby. Probably very soon after conception. Um, I'm in agreement with Bow, there. But, I, I believe it is a necessary evil of our society and that what we were discussing before sex education. We've been negligent and, um, therefore many women are falling pregnant and don't have an option of course there are these women that are career women and saying that it won't fit in my life. But if that woman is so selfish at that point. I would rather, there are so many children that are neglected, in our societies today, I'd rather she get rid of it than have it, because, rather than seeing another child being brought up in a, uh, a selfish home (Vivian: Right) with a selfish mother. But I do feel that if we go back to the 1950s where women were having backyard abortions, sticking coat hangers up themselves and damaging themselves for life so they couldn't have another child or women that are raped by their family, or strangers on the street and have to hate that child for their entire life. I don't think that's fair. I think the law should be there to protect women, and I think it's a total feminist issue. And I'm enraged when I hear men in government talk about it.

Vivian: Well, there's a lot of details about each side, you know, for example, I could just bring up the fact, um, lots of people like for women, lots of people think it's the women's choice, it is her body. No, I could always say. OK, but there are so many people that wanna adopt children but can't have children. Why couldn't this person instead of get, um, having the child or you know, and keeping it, why don't they have it wait the 8 months or 10 months, have the child and give it up for adoption to the couples who really, really want a child. But then, that person can also argue, hey, that 8 to 10 months that's a whole year out of my life that's changing my body and that really does change my life in a sense. And so maybe I don't wanna partake in something like that. And so that could be an argument there, and then here's another argument, a lot of people say (Bow: One at a time, one at a time) sure, ok, but this is, this kinda goes along with that. What if the woman doesn't want that and the man, there is always a man involved, I mean, we always say it's the woman's body but, is it the man's choices as well? And what if he does want the child, and the woman doesn't. Let's attack this one.

Daisy: OK. I believe that if it's a man and a woman that are involved in a mutual loving relationship and they're living together and they have the means to have that child? I believe in that case that the man has a fifty percent ' say.' Um, if it was a casual one night affair, I don't think he has a choice, he was simply sleeping with the woman and they were mutually using each other if they, if you like, I don't think he has any say in... that woman because she had a one-night stand with him for nine months she has to bear his child. That's absurd. (Vivian: But you guys)

Luke: But what if he's saying he wants to support it and he's willing to go through with it? It's up to the woman and to, to consider. (Daisy: Yeah, it is up to her.) But the man actually if he is a full a full, uh, like a full partner in the relationship has exactly 50%? (Daisy: I think that he does have same) even though it is the woman's body 50%, exactly that? (Vivian: 50%? Would you like it to be 40?) (Vivian: I don't know...)

Luke: What would you do? If it was 50% you couldn't really dc) anything?

Daisy: You have to take it to the court, in a court of the law. (Bow: What should the law be?) What should the law be? (Bow: Yeah.) Well, i guess that they have to take. (Bow: What do you think?) What do I think? I guess every situation's gonna be different I mean that's the thing, I mean, if the woman could possibly lose her entire career. Say she's in a country like Korea where you know, I mean, some women are discriminated against if they're married and have children in the work place. Um, if it's going to discriminate against her career and she's got, she's got a great future ahead of her, then, you know, I think we should be more thinking about the woman. If it's, if it's likely that she can have more children in the future.

Luke: I'm surprised you gave the man 50%, that's why I said it.

Luke: That's very generous.

Vivian: I also take into consideration that we're kind of thinking more along the western side, I don't know about Europe or up other countries, but in America a woman has six months maternal leave. So you know, before she even shows she can take off and come back after she's had the baby. In Korea, apparently, you don't have maternal leave, you only I mean, you can only leave for one month, I'm not even sure, but you certainly don't have six months.

Daisy: Two months.

Vivian: Two Months. Anyways but, either way, I mean, the situation is totally different that would put you (Daisy: Right) totally put you back if you were in a different country.

Daisy: It would, and I think that's something to take into consideration, but even in our country, I mean even though it's more accepted and there's a lot of people that, that generally do support pro-choice. You've gotta consider religion. There are so many religious factions. In every country, and me I grow up in a Catholic family. If my father heard me talk like this, he'd probably have a cow, but these are my choices, but I'm not making my, my choice on, you know, a scientific fact or, or even a religious or emotional fact. I see it as a necessity in our society. And I do believe it's a feminist issue.

Luke: Well. That's the idea here too. It's kind of in Korea or in Asia it's a catch 22, because according to society you know you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to fornicate. But people do, because it's a natural they wanna have sex, some you know, some accidents happen, and they have a baby. But then they make abortion illegal. And you're not, and if you're pregnant out of wedlock, then you're look down on in society. So, what are you supposed to do really in that case? (Vivian: Exactly)

Bow: They set up things here, in these Confucian societies, (Vivian: Sure) you have no choices really.

Daisy: But, I do think it's become a little too common as Luke was saying before, there are some women out there that are using this as a form of contraception, which is just amoral you know, it's not acceptable. And I think that we need to kind of get back to educating people that this is not ok and it's, not.., apparently I was told by a doctor that it's not good for a woman. The more a woman has an abortion, the less chance she has of falling pregnant again.

Vivian: Right, and having a healthy baby too, and it causes pro, problems for herself, too.

Daisy: Yeah. So I think if we're gonna clamp down as a society on abortion. Not saying it's wrong that women still have these choices, but offer other al... (Vivian: Alternatives) alternatives and opportunities for them. OK. Say to the career woman. Alright. If you have this child these are the benefits that we can give you, this is the help we can give you and finding the child a good home. Um, You know with adoption and things like that. Think about if the government wants to, you know, move away from so many people having abortion, then offer other alternatives and options.

Vivian: The, the options certainly do have to be there, but also there is the moral aspect you know, which if you're doing it for contraceptive reasons or because it was an accident and you really weren't careful or because you could have it, but you couldn't. Anyways but we have to make that moral issue much more of a stronger point in society now and also, I mean, if you're doing it just you could have the baby but I just don't want to and this was just an accident. That should be like a public thing. People would.., it should be like a standard thing that we think that is not right, you know, I mean you should only do this, in the case of, this is my personal opinion, but if you were raped or, in extreme circumstances, if you're very young, and it really was an accident, and you have no other options left to you, I mean, then I think that should be an option for you.

Bow: Um, this is kind of getting back to what we were talking about, or I was talking about before with the titles of pro-choice or pro-life. But, um, have you seen the movie? What is it? If Walls Could Speak, it is all about abortion? (Vivian: Yes, If walls could talk) well, if walls could talk, yes. And in Boston, there's a lot of um, abortion clinics, and there's a lot of pro-lifers who stand outside. There was a guy that close to my house, an abortion clinic that was close to my house and a guy went in there and killed one of the doctors. He's under the title pro-life which is kind of a contradiction because he's taking a life (Daisy: Exactly) He trying to say, but his excuse is that I'm trying to save many lives by taking one, But how does that work? you know, I don't understand that.

Vivian: It's like a vigilante kind of instance, and he is kind of contradicting himself but he's saying I'll save a majority versus one. (Daisy: Right, so many babies)

Bow: I know what he's saying but, I mean, those women are gonna, have gone through the decision. The hard task of making a decision to go there, are not gonna stop there.

Daisy: Right. What is fascinating to me is, that here, there is so much talk. People's protesting outside abortion clinics today. But abortion has been around for centuries, and it wasn't performed by a doctor, it was, basically, you know, you know, you go to your local herb doctor or witch doctor, and you can, an abortion can be performed with simple herbs like ginger and parsley. And this has been going on for centuries. The African, a lot of tribes in Africa, they believe, that it is solely up to the woman as the giver of life and she is the representation of god and if she falls pregnant then it is her decision whether she brings that life forth. They believe that if that life is not wanted then why should it be brought into the world, it should brought into the world when it's loved. And they've been using these herbs for, for uh, centuries, to perform abortions, so it's not a modern day issue. It's not something, you know, in other cultures it is accepted within their religions. So you know, I, I've, I kind of don't understand why people are, maybe because it's just public now. I don't get it.

Bow: That makes it a very easy decision for the man who had impregnated the woman (Daisy: Right) in that culture. (Daisy: Right) If it's up to her. OK. You do it, he doesn't have to pay for anything and he doesn't have to have the guilt.

Daisy: He doesn't have to go out and hunt goats or something.

Vivian: OK, so I think the moral issue should be, really emphasized. I mean first of all, men should take responsibility, it's not a hit and go kind of thing, you know, you should stick around even if you weren't involved, until the process is over, and through with whether it's carrying it out to the end, or watching it through until she has the baby. And I should al... always emphasize adoption being, you know, an option. (Daisy: An option.) You know, if all else fails, hey, you know, I honestly think if that would happen to me, adoption, you know, I couldn't find other options for myself, I would always consider adoption the last resort, you know.

Vivian: Abortion, the last resort?

Daisy: No. Adoption. I mean that should be something that's there. You know, if I can't keep this baby or if we can't raise it together or something. My parents couldn't raise it. That should always be.

Luke: I do agree that, that bringing a child to term and seeking out that route, is the noble thing to do, (Vivian: Sure) but I just don't think everybody is up to it. And if they're not up to it, I mean, (Vivian: Exactly) If they are like way to stressed and. way to freaked out and they're going through this turmoil. I think a lot of the formative stuff that goes into baby's character, probably happens in the womb before it's even popped up.

Vivian: You know they're always talking about people who are raped or in, you know, abused situations where it was a very tra... (Luke: traumatic) traumatic event. Event? Ok. Incident, and so maybe they don't even want this at all.

Bow: Not always though, a friend of my grandmother's, I remember this story, when I was young, she, uh, I met her. She had a really great personality, I always thought of her as a funny lady. She was travelling in the Philippines, and was raped at, at night, she had no idea who was and she had the baby, and I remember the kid. And the kid was just like her, she raised the kid. And the kid was very happy. I believed it at that time, so it just depends on you know, who raises the kid. I suppose (Daisy: No, Yeah) ...

Vivian: We're talking about the person themselves not the baby too, I mean, it does depend on the person. You know, you could be a very young girl, and have been raped, I mean, this may be traumatic for you. Not only that but there are also health reasons, why like young children, if your body is not fully developed, you cannot carry a baby to term. It's dangerous to your body. And so a lot of doctors make that argument that, you know, if your body has not come to age yet, or it's not fully developed you're not up to bearing a baby yet.

Daisy: Well, not just that, I mean, you know, I mean, you've got a 17-year-old kid who's promiscuous and is pregnant, and you're going to leave it up to her to take care of her body for nine months? She could be drinking, (Vivian: Sure) she could be having more, you know, sex. She could be having, taking drugs she you never know. But the point that Bow made about his, the story about his grandmother I mean, in an ideal society. (Bow: Grandmother's friend.) Ah! Sorry. In an ideal society, we'd all be doing that, but it's not an ideal society. And it's up to us to provide other options or I think the only way we're gonna solve this problem is by educating our children. (Luke: Yeah) Letting them know that of course yes, abortion exists. Because if we, if we make it illegal again we're gonna have women hurting themselves. And there's gonna be butchers, you know in, uh, in abortion clinics. You know, just cutting these women up and it is just gonna go back. It'll be chaos. (Bow: Knowledge is power) So. It is. So, let's treat our kid let's teach our kids, um, so that this doesn't happen so we're not having them pregnant, they are not getting the diseases, and this doesn't become, even become an issue.

Luke: They have to have all of the options available to them. but it has to start at the very foundations of the education system again. (Daisy: Yes, yes.) It's like, and you have to, people have to impress of course. I think it’s uh, it's human nature you want to see if it's, something like that happens, you wanna see it come to term, you wanna see a new life brought into the world. That's the human, that's the basic fundamental human impulse. It's like procreate. That's the most beautiful thing. It doesn't work for everybody. It doesn't, it doesn't end happily in every situation. So for that reason I think it has to be an option. But ultimately I disagree with, with doing it. It's an, it's an, (Daisy: Abortion) it's a shitty thing that you have to go through. I'm sure. I'll never experience it, but women I know who've done it, it's been like, you know, the hardest dec.., the hardest decision they've ever had to make to go actually through with it.

Daisy: But then, the problem is that today, you know, actually I have a friend in Australia and she's had five abortions and she's 28. (Luke: Yeah) and she is using it as a form of contraception. And she said I just had my fifth abortion when I last went home, and I said to her "Do you know like know about the pill," or you know other forms of contraception. And she said, yeah but if I, if I take the pill, you know, I'm gonna gain weight, and this is just like, she's, just become such a superficial person where she can check herself in her lunch break, break into an abortion clinic, have an abortion, come out and go back to work and has no emotional attachment whatsoever.

Vivian: See? In that situation, it is extreme. (Vivian: Extreme and it's unexceptable, it's amoral, you know) Well, obviously, we have a group of people here, that.., you know we don't have any extreme people, you know, we're not extremely pro-choice or pro-life. But how about we attack this question? We obviously are kind of pro-life but also pro-choice, for the extreme pro-choice people of course they wanna say, hey, from day one, from day one the child is alive and you can't kill it after that day. Right? (Daisy: Pro-life people) Right. So I mean where exactly in your opinion is, does life begin? Because in America I think for most states, you know, abortion is legal or not, uh, or illegal in states depending on, it's their decision. But, um, usually I think it's two months is the... (Daisy: You can have an, you can have an abortion up to your first trimester) Right. Somewhere around there. So in your personal opinions how far can you take it or you shouldn't take it at all?

Bow: I already answered that earlier I said that I believe it's right from the beginning even before the egg and the sperm meet. It's life in, everything. (Vivian: Do you think?) Yeah, I believe that. (Vivian: You too, Luke? How about you Daisy?)

Daisy: Yeah, well, you know, I believe that I said that, you know, shortly after conception I believe it's becoming a child, a baby, a human. But I don't believe that it's a life until it's connected with the mother and mother has connected with it. And I believe that when the woman makes that decision that I'm going to have this child and I'm going to love this child or I'm going to carry this child, so it'll be loved by someone else then it's a life and then it's a life that it's important. It's important.

Luke: It's becomes, I just think it's a life from the beginning but as it becomes more complex, it's a trickier decision. It's sorta like how you feel bad about like, uh, killing a bird, but you don't feel bad about squashing a bug. It's all life, you don't feel bad about plucking a dandelion. It's just higher things that we see as being more close to us are harder for us to try to snuff out. And as a child develops and grows and becomes more like us with our own like genetic material. I think that's when it really starts to become uh, like you.

Vivian: The reason why I ask this question is because, sure when we look at it that way it's, it's an, a simple answer, hey, you know, it's, it's life from the beginning or what not. But what if we made that situation more complicated, what if it was your daughter, Bow, and she was raped by some stranger on the street and, listen, listen, and she is only a teenager, she's young, she was raped, she doesn't know who the hell this person was, you know, and what if she is put in that situation, what if she didn't know she was pregnant, hey? Oh! And wait, what if she's a lot of people, no, a lot of people don't show until what they're third or fourth months. Am I right, Daisy? I mean, what if she found out after the first trimester, after a certain point where a lot of people don't agree, hey, after this point you shouldn't have it. But what if the situation is totally   she's too young, she's, you know, emotionally upset, and she cannot accept this. What if she made the choice that she doesn't want it. How would you feel about that?

Bow: Now? (Vivian: Yeah) Well, that's the thing I'm the Dad of this person. You're a woman. What if it was you? What would you do? I don't, I don't know what I will do.

Vivian: Yeah, OK. What if it was your partner, and what if it is your female counterpart. Then it's your choice together, right?

Bow: Yeah, I don't know what I would do. What would you do? If it was you?

Vivian: But see that's what I'm asking. When you simply say, when is, when does life begin, and how far can you take it, you guys earlier said from day one. But then when you complicate the situation you really can't give an answer.

Daisy: Well, you can. Because the law says after your first trimester you cannot legally have an abortion, and I, I would be pretty.., uh...

Vivian: But not in all countries.

Daisy: Well, almost all of them.

Vivian: But. Let's say that wasn't true, that's, what it is the whole.

Daisy: Say that wasn't true?

Vivian: No, no, no. I'm saying the whole issue, is they're still arguing where does life begin, where does it end, whether to make this legal or not. I mean that's what I'm asking. If the situation was complicated like that I mean, it was your own daughter, or your own mate, I mean, could you say?

Luke: Once they hit elementary school, it's too late to abort.

Vivian: Yeah, I think so too.

Daisy: Yeah, definitely. I don't know, I mean that's a tough, you know, I mean, that's basically the scientific evidence that most pro-lifers are arguing with with pro-choicers. And you know, I just, the scientific information, for me it's more of uh, a spiritual thing. I think that it is wrong to just use abortion as contraception which we've all said. But I do believe that it is a connection that, that connection makes life, our connection with each other, our relationships with each other, and my future relationship with my child when I have a child I know I'm pregnant and when I accept that and I'm already loving that child and bringing it into life, that's when the connection for me would be. And I think most women feel that way.

Luke: And I think it's easy to talk about, talk about, you know, when you're in a vacuum and saying, this is the right thing, and I'm morally like this, and I believe in this thing. But, uh, yeah, unless you have experienced all the emotions that come with it. And the actual going through with it. Who knows what you're gonna do? (Daisy: Exactly) I mean, you don't know what you think. It's easy to like take this hypothetical situation, (Daisy: Sure) and say, well you know, after thinking through it and stuff, and go through all this pedantic sort of B.S. But I mean yeah, doing it is, actually where you're gonna find your answer and being put in that situation you can't rationalize that.

Bow: Well, that's why it is, what it is today. Everything's messed up, because everybody, not everybody has gone through it. So we have these opinions which we think this could be a basic foundation but people will still from now until the end of time they will still um, keep talking about this, (Daisy: Sure) and keep going through the same situations over and over again. You just keep your opinions, you know, like what you think and you try to do but you hope of course a situation like that would not happen. But if it does arise then you try to deal with it as it comes.

Daisy: Sure, that's fine. These people in the government (Luke: Speaking on your behalf of course) are going to make decisions about my future and my body, and I wanna have a say in that. I'm not impressed when conservative Rush Limbaugh or whoever else it happens to be in government at the time. Would stand up there and tell me what rights I have as a woman, and what I can do with my body, I'm offended.

Bow: But there are also republican or conservative women in congress who're voting for these laws too.

Daisy: Yes, there are. But they have a right to talk about that. Because they are women, I accept that. But I don't, I, I, draw the line when I've got a bunch full of white male conservatives discussing my future and other women's future.

Vivian: Right. I agree with that, but I do believe, I'm sorry to go against all the females out there. But I do believe they do have a word in there, because, um, a very small word. I'm not saying a big word.

Luke: I think for a woman in a situation where it wasn't uh, a mutually mutual relationship this has happened, an experience to people I know. Um, not, not a close situation, all of a sudden a pregnancy came up unexpectedly the man was, I want no part of this, and the woman was like and don't sweat it, I don't want to make you a part of it. That's fine. If you're, if you're interested in pursuing it further than go ahead but, I'm choosing to go... go ahead with this anyway. And I think the guy eventually sort of just came around to the idea. He wanted to be a part of it... like she was gonna go through with it anyways. She was like I'll find a way, I\m really gonna do this, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna do it. And then she came, and then the guy was just sort of like uh, she's doing it without me. That's half my kid, man.

Bow: Actually, you know, I think that happens in a lot of cases, um, one partner makes the decision and it's like somebody is waiting for the other one to say, yes, we can do this. And then once you get that consensus, then you go ahead and then you find out what child rearing is, child bearing and child rearing and it turns out to be a very rewarding experience. Exactly. Thank you.

Luke: A rewarding experience.

Vivian: I just wanna touch on what that just reminded me of... was. What if the woman were to go ahead and consent to this and say that she wanted the baby and there was the male who didn't want anything to do with it. Doesn't he have something to say, when he says I don't want my child being born. What about that aspect of this story, no?

Bow, Daisy: No.

Vivian: No?

Luke: I don't think so, I don't think I'd feel in a place that I've ever tell a woman, you have to take that child's life, if she felt, she felt, if she felt that she was good enough to do it and she was up for the job, no one else would be more qualified than her.

Vivian: OK. Let's wrap up with maybe a comment from each of us. How do you feel over all and maybe then, some thoughts?

Bow: Um, I think Daisy brought up a really pertinent point which was, which can kind of almost sum up everything which is that education is the key point. (Vivian: Definitely) And, uh, educate people, and let them know what's going on as much as you can, put more money into the schools for that purpose and uh...

Vivian: And the parents should get involved, too. It's not just schools, (Luke: Talk to your kids, to your kids) don't make it just the schools' or governments' responsibility.

Daisy: Hopefully, you know, if we are able to do that, if we are talking to our children, and we are teaching them in schools, getting them as much information as possible, and trusting their judgment, maybe they won't even get to the situation where they'll have to think about abortion. But, you know, we've got to do something.

Vivian: And sadly enough if you were put in that situation, this is my personal opinion, but I think each situation is different regardless if it's pregnancy, or violence, or what not. You have to kind of take it for each circumstance (Daisy: Right) on its own. We can't just judge everything.

Daisy: There is no black and white.