2. 《听说大突破》Abortion and Sexual Education压码听懂练习

2. Abortion and Sexual Education原文

SIDE A


Ok, today we're talking about a real sensitive issue. It's abortion and of course sexual education, it all kinds of, you know, combines into each other.

Vivian: This is Viv.
Daisy: Yeap! This is Daisy. Yes, a very heated topic. I don't know what do you think. Bow.
Bow: This is Bow! It's short for Bow Seaffas. Anyway, I think this is a hot topic all over the world. So let's dig our heels in and get going.
Luke: Yeah, the life-giving force that we all have inside of us, that procreative impulse, that just seems to keep on going like a spark that can never be snuffed out. Let's rap gang.

Vivian: Hello everyone welcome and uh let's introduce ourselves.

Luke: How are you doing? This is Luke!

Bow: And I am Bow!

Daisy: And I am Daisy!

Vivian: And this is Viv!

Vivian: Today's topic is sexual education. Let's start off by saying, hey, where did you guys start off? I mean, how'd you

get your sexual education?

Daisy: Well, urn, well, actually I was kind of brought up in a very strict Catholic family and my mother was very reluctant to tell me about anything. Actually, my funny story, my sister asked me to go to the store and buy her some tampons. And I had never heard this word before, didn't even know what they were. So I went to the shop and I asked the guy for some tampons, and he gave them to me. Looking at these tiny little, cotton things and thinking, what the hell are these? I had no idea. So I gave them to my sister and asked her what they were. And she said, "Ask mom." And then I, urn, asked my mother and she wouldn't tell me for like two months. I kept hounding her, so she gave me this book that was like published in the sixties. And it still have pictures of women that use to wear those sanitary belts that they attached sanitary napkins, too. And I couldn't understand any of the words, I didn't even know what a penis or a vagina was.

Vivian: Oh! Daisy. This is brutal!

Daisy: And I was pronouncing the word, as "Penis," and "Vagina." And my cousin came to visit me, he was like talking about sex. And I said "I know what sex is." And he said, "No, you don't. What is it?" And I said, "well, it's when a man puts his penis in the women's vagina."

Vivian: Can I ask how old you were when you in first like.

Daisy: When I got this? I was probably 10 or 11 I guess. (Vivian: Really?)

Vivian: What about school education?

Bow: Urn. There was an attempt at educating students when I was, I guess, in grade four or five. I must have been just pre-pubescent at that time. (Vivian: Right) 12, Thereabouts, 11 or 12. They would take all the boys and shuttle them into another room and they would leave all the other girls in the classroom that they were in. And then the gym instructor would take us all and explain basic things very nervously. He was a gym instructor. He was about physical education. He was, part of his job description was not teaching a bunch of horny pre-pubescent boys about sex. But, um, because the curriculum had changed, he sort of got stuck with the job. And I mean it's, it's kind of stupid. I mean it should, it has to be done. But the thing is by that time, a lot of kids really do know quite a bit about sex. Just because they have older brothers or sisters who sort of fill them in or stuff, um, or their friends do and they've learned stuff from their friends in a lot of cases. So I kind of knew a lot of stuff, but it still was good to have that. I think because it sort of, am, solidified a lot of things, just so that you wouldn't be embarrassed if it ever came up like, I know there's a lot of tension for me, because there were a lot of spaces missing in the whole sex thing that I wanted to get like, you know, get smart with eventually before I actually was gonna be with a girl. I didn't wanna like just get there and be like "doh", I've never learned that part, you know. So it is not necessary. (Daisy: They told you that?) No, I need not to study the general things, you don't wanna go into it, you know, your big romantic first encounter and end up looking like a spasm, just because you, you didn't want, you know, ask your buddy. What's that for? How do you use that or whatever.

Vivian: What about the parental aspects? I mean, did your parents ever like come in and ask you or tell you anything?

Luke: My father would sometimes come up to me, and ask me if there was anything that I wanted to know, that I was curious about. Is there any, you know, sort of things that you're, you know, you'll probably, you know, starting to become a man now? Is there anything that you're curious about? Wanna know about? Of course for me, I was just ' No, that's all right. Dad, I'm fine. And he said like, All Right. Great, see what's on TV. That was good enough for us.

Vivian: And then week, he'd come back.

Luke: Just make, just let you know, you know, I'm here, if you do wanna talk about this stuff, if you don't, that's probably, you know, just as good if not better. (Daisy: That's great.)

Bow: He was available for that.

Vivian: How about you Bow?

Bow: Um, my sexual education was a little bit warped. I think it, kind of all most make me uh, deviant almost because of it. Because it was kind of in uh, little, clips of things. So like I guess, Luke was saying it was for.., fourth grade or fifth grade. You start to think about it when it happens and... There are some, you know, promiscuous people in that grade too. Sure they are. There was, this couple they were supposedly going out and there's rumor that they had, had sex. So then, everyone in that grade was like really interested in what happened, what happened. And they said, well they did it. And then they both got sick. So, we thought that, that's like what happen after you do it, you know, too early or something you get sick. But then like the second part of it was after that, I actually, caught my parents doing it. It just like walked into the room and I thought like my dad was hurting my mother. So I said "Dad, you're hurting mom." And he said, "No, just go back to bed. We're OK!" And then where it gets worse is because I went to a Catholic school. They kind of masked sex education as health, in health class. You take health. But you're taught sex education by a really big and fat ninety-year-old nun who says if anybody laughs, I'm gonna whack you on the back of your head. People laughed and I laughed and then she said like this is the penis and this is the vagina... Boom! you got whacked in the back of your head. So now I like uh, when I have relations I feel like I'm gonna get whacked in the back of my head in a minute.

Daisy: Which you do anyway!

Bow: Turns me on.

Luke: It still true that I feel if you laugh during any sort of sexual stuff, you usually get a slap in a face.

Vivian: Are we talking from experience here, right?

Luke: Oh, yes, sure. I haven't had sex, yet.

Bow: Oh yeah sure. So, but I'm think uh, nowadays, like I sound like a real dad like: "When I was back in school," but, it's true like I think people are more aware of it, at least in North America, and they're making it a priority their kins take this sexed. As a whole class not as under the guise of health class.

Vivian: Right. I think in the past ten, maybe 15 years, especially in the American school system with the addition of sex education. It may not necessarily be a class you can select it as an elective when you enter high school. But usually you get this class during the end of your elementary or beginning of your junior high years, you get a couple of classes with the health teacher or the nurse. And they teach you, you know, all the basic functions of the body including, you know, all the sexual parts, and that has changed the educational system a lot. As matter of fact, there's lots of parents who are totally against having sexed in school. They don't like the fact of the school teaching it and so usually you get parental permission before your child can enter that class.

Daisy: Well, when I'm, I was in elementary school, um, I went to a Catholic school. And they didn't teach it in the school but what they did to satisfy the parents who wanted the education was have all the kids go to the local church after school. And sit down while the priest and the nun gave us sex education. Which is ironic.

Vivian: That sounds similar to Bow's situation.

Luke: That's why that, you know. Catholic school girls have such a bad reputation cause they do just the opposite of what they are not supposed to do.

Vivian: Exactly.

Daisy: But, um, basically, just the biological functions they taught us, you know, woman menstruate. And this is what happens and then when I went to high school I had a class like that it was called health. They were very liberal they taught us about contraception, sexual diseases, everything from drugs, tobacco, alcohol, all those things that you know I guess kids are tempted by. And I thought it was good. Actually, I found the class very interesting because I never had that education in elementary school, and I know more I think about those things like sexual diseases than any of my friends do because I remember that. I think it's really important to teach kids that, and give them that sexual education.

Bow: The thing that's um, strange are the statistics like today, because you know, say from the forties for example to the sixties, or late fifties even though sex education it was kind of weird talk about it and it was really scientific and stuff, but there was less teenage pregnancy then, than there is now when they're really adamant about teaching these things in school. So like is it just that the kids are not listening or do they think they no more than more people? I don't know.

Luke: I think it's that, I think the reason that parents are against it is because they think that their children are becoming educated about the wrong things at too early an age, but the truth is that kids are growing up they're, they're maturing a lot faster. (Daisy: Right. Much more promiscuous than they used to be.) Not necessarily pre-mascuous, but I mean that they come of, they sort of come of age a little earlier and they, urn, they go through these changes a little earlier and the thing is they are going to get, they are gonna get educated, they are gonna learn about sex, they're gonna be curious about it, from a young age. It's probably better that like they learn about it on TVs and movies and music, and on the Internet. But they don't have that sort of, urn, educational aspect, and sort of like what you should do, maybe and what you shouldn't do. That's why sex education it's not like they're gonna, just go through life, not even hearing about sex, not wondering about it or curious about it, if they don't get sex education. But the sex education is good in that, it sort of says now just be smarter about it, you know, like put this on or use this or like maybe, maybe it's better to wait. You got to think of your options and if they won't get that out of a school setting, they just get sex is dirty, it's kinda interesting. They're just curious about it and they want to learn about it.

Vivian: For me, you know, my parents never sat me down, even to these day, we've never talked about that topic. I mean, we never had that birds and the bees little talk that everyone get. So my first contact with that kind of information was in elementary school, just like Luke said, we had the little class where the school nurse actually took you aside, and separated you and told you about the anatomy. Perhaps the girls could, you know, run into their menstrual cycle any time soon now. You should go talk to parents. And they gave us this little sample of the sanitary napkins. So when I first ran into my little accident, you know, I had that little sample that the teacher gave me and so 'Thank God!' You know, cause my mom and I never talked about that. And then my second encounter with that sort of information was in junior high, when we had the health class that Daisy was talking about. We had the health class where we talked about all sorts of things starting with drugs and going down to, you know, the aca-, uh, anatomy and sex and what not, and I think when you're younger, because children talk, uh, she went out with so and so and they did this and that, of course, you know, the movies and videos all sorts of information that you get on TV. There's a lot of things that aren't factual but you know lots of rumor things that you think may be true and sexual education kind of reinforces what you know, and what may not be factual and a lot of myths get cleared out of the way, you know, about STDs, and AIDS and drugs and getting this disease and that of course pregnancy and what not.

Bow: Urn, yeah, O.K. But, I think, uh, one of the things that you're saying is that you're unfortunate to not have the talk with your parents, like everybody does, I don't think many people do get that talk actually. I think it's very rare that people do and I think like the movie "American Pie," that's why it was so funny with the father "Eugene Levvy" like "Son here's a couple of magazines for you." Everybody could relate to that, because that's what parents do. I think it's just kind of weird to talk to your kids about and they try to do it, cause they think it's their duty, but it doesn't really help. I don't think so.

Daisy: I think it's just probably; it's a really awkward thing. Because you know a mother-daughter or father-son relationship is, you know, extremely sensitive where that area is concerned. A mother doesn't or father doesn't want his daughter to be, you know, even having sexual feelings. So I think it's very difficult for them, but that's why I think, urn, because they're families like that, that do have difficulties discussing those things, that it is absolutely, urn, of the utmost importance, that education be in schools, compulsory. The government should make that the law whether parents don't like it or not especially in this day and age. I don't care what country you're in, even if you're in Korea, and they say there's no AIDS which is just, just misinformation, you know, there are, other sexual diseases out there, that can stay with you for life, and you know, that might not be life threatening but they are not certainly not comfortable, and you know, there's AIDS, there's... Oh, there're so many different things. (Vivian: STDs, sure) You know, other than pregnancy to worry about (Luke: Psychological things) Sure.

Vivian: I definitely agree with Daisy, there. That's definitely true and then also it doesn't just rely on the government or the schools. People always say, hey, it starts with the home and it really does, and for example, I mean, if you were to put yourself in those same shoes, if I had a daughter or a son, I mean, I eventually know I have to talk to them, sure, this is the position that many parents are put in is. I need eventually talk to my child about something like this but "Are they there yet", so it's kind of like, kind of, you know, test you out, maybe test out the waters by coming out and saying... "So, is there any thing you wanna talk about?" kind of like in Luke's situation. But then of course the kids in the same situation were there, it's an awkward topic for them, too. And so they're not gonna say, yeah. Dad actually I wanna know about this. So they just keep avoiding the topic. So you never end up talking about it even though your child maybe 16, 18, 20. You never want to admit to yourself. Oh, my child is sexually active or is going to be, and so you never wanna really go in and you know. Yes, Bow.

Bow: Um, yeah, that’s exactly right. That's how I felt when I first had my daughter, and I thought "oh" I'm just gonna be a strict dad and she's never gonna have sex, she's not gonna be with boys and all this stuffs. And then I met, uh, another father, who has a similar situation. We called him a Cooter. Cooter's opinion was that, that's so stupid. I mean she's just gonna rebel against you even more, she gonna become like a prostitute, she's gonna do it for money, you know it's just a natural res.., res.., natural thing, you know. That's what people do.

Vivian: God forbid your daughter does that ten years from now.

Bow: Yeah, ok. But um, anyway I kind of realized, you're exactly right, and I can't do that, I can't like, you know lock her up, and put a chastity belt on her, or get the chastity rings... I just have to kind of try to raise her, naturally in hope like she'll be smart enough to make her own decisions. (Daisy: Hope that she has good judgment)

Vivian: I definitely think that the more informed you are, the smarter you are, think about it, when you look at two 18-year-olds, for example, and you have one that is very much educated and aware of her surroundings, and current events and what not. One that is not so much aware of everything and informed. When you see the ignorance and the naivete of one child versus the other, you know, that person that has more knowledge, you know, yeah they're, they know what's going on, but then also they're gonna be, more aware of the bad things and they are gonna be smart about their choices and decisions versus the ones that are not so aware and so out of curiosity and ignorance she's gonna go in there and most likely be in a lot more dangerous situations.

Luke: I think all kids respond to, uh, to just frankness and openness. And it's really hard to do with a topic like that, but I find that like coddling kids and just going like goo-goo ga-ga and stuff often they're just like, OK, someone's making stupid voices to me. That's not how they really talk when they're among themselves, so I think they'd really respond to, to a subject like that which is very sensitive if you can just show them you're comfortable talking about it like at an early age even if you are not. If you can just sort of I don't know be open about that stuff, be available to talk about those sort of things. I think it wouldn't be such, such a hard thing to talk about because it really is a natural thing, you know it's such an obvious thing and it's just all this other sort of social conditions that make it sort of dodge to talk about, you know.

Vivian: And who here at the age of 15 or 16, didn't think that they were mature enough or adult enough to hear something like this, when your parents do talk to you like that you're "Yeah, whatever", and then it just makes you revolt against them more, when they speak to you at such a level, you know, when they if your parents had actually talking you at the age of 15 and sat you aside and sai. "Hey, you're an adult now, you're mature enough to listen to this. Hey, let's just talk to each other like adults. This is how it is, and if you're gonna get involved or I would prefer that you don't let me know this is how it goes. If they are very frank with you, I mean, I honestly think that, yeah, I would probably respond, not only with that, you know, the whole sexual aspects but with many other aspects as well, at a much more mature level. And probably grown up a little bit.

Bow: You're saying that if your parents were frank with you then (Vivian: Yeah, I'm just) I disagree with that. (Vivian: You do why?) Because I think the point that you made that teenagers, urn, do think that they are mature because of that reason they don't wanna listen to anybody. And I think you don't realize that until you become an adult, and I think if you're frank with them, yeah, they could be "yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever."

Daisy: Yeah, but it depends on the attitude that you have towards them, I mean if you're treating your children like a baby the entire time, I mean that, (Luke: And suddenly come up and say, OK, let's talk about the birds and bees.) Exactly.

Luke: I mean you have to open with them even from a young age like just sort of let them know like "this is what makes girls girls, this is makes boys boys," and like start at the really basic stuff like that, I mean.

Vivian: Cause the entire raising the child experience is an educational thing from very the beginning it leads gradually, and slowly, and eventually toward the sex education thing as well.

Bow: OK thanks. I'll remember that.

Daisy: Well, you know, I just think that we're so way beyond on this discussion I don't think it's even about how we approach it with out kids any more. I think it should be forced down their throats. I think whether the government has to do that, the school has to do that, or the parents, it should be made some law that makes it compulsory. Because I am not, I don't want my child, if, even if she can't talk to me even if I have a great relationship with my child, if he or she can't talk to me, I wanna know she's getting that information somewhere else. (Vivian: Right) Because it's just way to dangerous. You take Korea, for an example, you know, here's a country that has basically, my niece, I asked what she gets in school. And they're still just giving them the biological processes, you menstruate, the penis is inserted into the vagina and so on, and so on, so on. And she really knows nothing about how to protect herself from pregnancy. She doesn't know anything about sexual diseases. She still thinks, and so does the rest of Korea, which just makes me insanely angry, that you can get AIDS by drinking out of the same cup as someone, you know, I mean, it's just misinformation, and the thing, this is a country that has nightclubs that have professional, you know, dm, hookers working there. And it's not just Korea. It's the rest of Asia as well, and urn, it's ok to have hookers working in nightclubs as, you know, girls that peel your fruit or pour your drink. But it's not ok to teach the rest of the country that you need to wear a condom that you need to protect yourself, that there's AIDS, there's other sexual diseases out there.

Luke: What are the names of those night clubs?

Vivian: Anyways, I do have to agree with Daisy on one point is the actual amount of education you are getting and at what age, too. As I was saying before, I learned about the anatomy in elementary school. But then like said especially when you are at that age you're very sensitive and you hear a lot of information and that's not actually factual, a lot of it is, just a lot of gossip that kids pass around. Hey, if you do this, you get this. This happens to you such and such. Literally, ninety percent of it is all false, I mean, its false information and you should be informed with factual information whether it’s from school, or homes or whatever. And even to this day, even from adults that I speak to, my friends. There's a lot of people that are totally misinformed about certain things, I mean, they may know it up to a certain point, but then that they don't know the, the rest of it. You know, I mean I'm talking about 30-year-old adults who don't know the, the entire picture, you know, and I mean, when these children are going up to junior high and they know basically the, the little skeleton, but they don't know the meaty part of it, and then they hear all these rumors. Even though, you think you're supposed to know you're not so sure, and when you hear these rumors. Oh, that must be true, I mean, if they get factual information instead of being misinformed by their peers, wouldn't that change a lot of things.

Luke: Sure. I was growing up, uh, a lot of, uh, people that I knew who were starting to experiment with sex under the understanding that you couldn't get pregnant the first time. And you couldn't get pregnant if you did it in a certain position, if the girl was on top or something. So that was sort of a form of birth control, you know. I wonder how many people got themselves in a lot of trouble. It's the first time. Forget about it.

Bow: Girls believe that. You win there.

Vivian: I have a totally prime example; this is just something recent that I had recently read. I heard that in Korea a form of, I think, I don't know, if it was Korea or America whatever, but maybe twenty years ago, a form of birth control was pulling out before the male ejaculated. (Luke: It helps.) It helps, yeah, but that is not 100 percent. That is not (Daisy: Coitus interrupt us) contraception. That is totally not, you know, and I was trying to explain, no actually. You know, it leaks out a little bit, and then also even, and that's totally not contraception. And then the second fact which wasn't a fact was, um, there were many women that were confused as to when you're menstruating if you have intercourse, you couldn't get pregnant, or when you're menstruating that was the time when you do get, you know, pregnant, which was true. And so they were confused as to which was actually true. And so that is very dangerous information to have, if you are on the wrong side of.

Daisy: Well, that's the rhythm method, and that's what the Catholic Church tried to get everybody to use it and that's why Catholic parents have so many children. (Luke: That's why it's the main religion in Christianity.)

Vivian: If you're to go to a doctor, ask him if this is true or not, he probably would laugh in your face, because, first of all, this is not a way to, you know, protect yourself, and perhaps if you don't wanna conceive children that is not the way to go about things. And second, it isn't true, you know, I mean that is totally false information.

Luke: But it's hard, if people don't, if kids don't have anywhere to go to other than friends' who also don't know the score, and if parents aren't really forthcoming with that kind of information and they don't get it in the schools, like where are they gonna get it.

Daisy: That's why, you know, I urge, you know parents to go and join their PTA to write their local member to get their governments to do something to make it compulsory in schools.

Bow: I think it is actually in the States (Luke: It is.) (Vivian: In America) the problem is, with that is, even though like anything else, US history is compulsory, but you gotta, a lot of kids in the poor neighborhoods don't go to school. (Daisy: Right) So they are not showing up for the class, you know.

Daisy: Well that's why I think that there needs to be some type of standard in, you know, in sex education in schools, and as Bow said, you know, of course there are the poor kids, you know, in poor neighborhood that aren't getting that education. But there are you know, I, I, the government even in the states, is trying to do things about that I mean, they've got welfare offices set up and people that go out, they talk to women who are single mothers having children and give them information about, you know, how to protect themselves both from sexual disease, and pregnancy. And I think it has to be a national effort in any country that you live in. If you have children and you're not involved, then you're not doing enough. You have to go, you have to write to your local member. You have to go to the village meeting, discuss these things they're important. And if you're not involved, then if your child does get pregnant then you are responsible for that.

Vivian: And I think this eventually leads to another question that is actually a very hot issue, especially in the western countries these days. I mean, what if all of this sexual education, it didn't work out in the end. Hey, what if, uh, it just didn't work out the way you wanted it for, your daughter or son? What if they did get pregnant or what if they got someone else pregnant, they'd been a situation where what? They may be students and they couldn't finish their education or they'd be force to have home education. There is a lot of situations going on out there. And of course even as a young adult or an elder adult, you may get pregnant and that is not the situation that you had planned on. There are some options out there for you and they're difficult options, and we can discuss some of the options first, and see how we all feel about this, um, obviously the topic is adopt.., um, I'm sorry, adoption? Ok. Those are one of the choices, yeah, that's one of the choices, but abortion. It is a really hot steamy issue, lots of people get very urn, sensitive about this one, so let's start off by saying like where we kind of stand. Are you pro? Or Are you against abortion? Are you for abortion? And second let's talk about the choices that are involved with that. You wanna start up Bow? Are you (Bow: Me?) Luke?

Bow: Um, I think that.

Vivian: What side are you on first?

Bow: I don't choose either side, I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. But I do, I believe that, um, there shouldn't be an abortion if people are, can be responsible, if they have the ability to be responsible, but they're just choosing not to be because oh, it's gonna be so hard on me. I don't agree with that. I agree in extreme situations where depending on how that child is gonna be raised, if the child is gonna grow up to be, you know, raised in a terrible environment then maybe the best choice would be to, you know, go ahead for the abortion. Um, if it had to do with a mother's health, um, basically yes.

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Vivian: OK. Let's, let's get back to that in a little, in a minute here. We can talk about the details. OK, Daisy. Do you wanna tell us where you stand?

Daisy: OK. Well, actually I just wanna to ask Bow a question. Um, I just wanna to ask him if you do have like obviously I understand what you're saying and probably pretty much most peoples' views are the same, but how could you make a law to make a standard for that type of thing, how could you say: it's ok for this person to have an abortion but it's not ok for a woman in her thirties who's not married, but has the financial ability to have a child?

Vivian: There's a wide grey area.

Bow: Yeah, I don't know, it's, I don't, I'm not a law maker, I don't know that is still uh, just, uh, just my opinion. That's what I think, (Vivian: Exactly) and I, it should be talked about more. People that do make laws and people that do make theirs, you know, who have these problems and these situations come up, and we should be talked about.

Luke: But you're basically pro-choice, but you don't think you don't feel that, that it should be used as a form of birth-control for example. (Vivian: It shouldn't be abused.)

Bow: If you have to label it, but I think, you know within the label of pro- choice or extreme pro-choice people, and there are extreme pro-life. But I'm more you know, in the middle of both of those.

Luke: Of course, I would say the same. I would say that I'm definitely pro- choice, but I think that yeah, abortion is not something that you just, you just, sort of do for the heck of it. But I don't think, I don't think that's any human, in a person's nature, I mean, if someone's gonna, gonna have a child, a woman is, obviously, is gonna have the child, there's gonna be some kind of attachment to, and some kind of like psychological factor there. That doesn't make it an easy decision in any, in any situation. I think if it's a repeated thing, if it's, it happens continually, there's a obviously problem there and I don't know, it's hard to regulate that (Bow: Yeah) but I also, I don't think that someone who's definitely not ready, and not interested in raising a child and isn't gonna give a 100%, or isn't just like, mentally and emotionally prepared for that, for that to happen. I don't know if it's if it's a wise move and if there not, if they're not fully committed to it. That's the first sign that it's, uh, no, shouldn't do it, shouldn't be done, shouldn't happen, do the abortion, give the child, like a fair shot a having a real life kind of thing.

Vivian: So both you guys are kind of in the pro-choice section but not very, you know, (Daisy: Pro-life) right.

Bow: I don't think for the extreme pro-choice people who say like, uh, it's gonna ruin my career and this kind of thing, if that person has confidence in themselves, and I believe that they could rise above that, they could take care of a child, and then, I think once that they started to raise the child and they could, people do it all the time, they have careers and they raise children, they become successful. And the children go to college and they become successful, and become a great member of society. But did you say like to look ahead into the future and say no, this is just gonna ruin everything for me, so, I'm just gonna, you know, cut this embryo out, and it's nothing, it doesn't mean anything, but I believe that the, um, pro-, extreme pro-choicers say that it's not a life yet and, but I don't believe, I believe it is a life, it's not a human yet. But it is, it is life, like every cell in your body's life, plants are life, you know. So that's my opinion. (Luke: Yeah)

Vivian: OK, Daisy. Where do you stand? Do you have a firm stand on either way?

Daisy: Well, I'm definitely pro-choice. I believe that abortion should be, should be legal. But for different reasons. Not because I don't believe that a fetus is, urn, not a baby yet. I believe exactly the same thing that Brandan does, not because I believe that a fetus is not a baby at that point, I do believe it is a baby. Probably very soon after conception. Um, I'm in agreement with Bow, there. But, I, I believe it is a necessary evil of our society and that what we were discussing before sex education. We've been negligent and, um, therefore many women are falling pregnant and don't have an option of course there are these women that are career women and saying that it won't fit in my life. But if that woman is so selfish at that point. I would rather, there are so many children that are neglected, in our societies today, I'd rather she get rid of it than have it, because, rather than seeing another child being brought up in a, uh, a selfish home (Vivian: Right) with a selfish mother. But I do feel that if we go back to the 1950s where women were having backyard abortions, sticking coat hangers up themselves and damaging themselves for life so they couldn't have another child or women that are raped by their family, or strangers on the street and have to hate that child for their entire life. I don't think that's fair. I think the law should be there to protect women, and I think it's a total feminist issue. And I'm enraged when I hear men in government talk about it.

Vivian: Well, there's a lot of details about each side, you know, for example, I could just bring up the fact, um, lots of people like for women, lots of people think it's the women's choice, it is her body. No, I could always say. OK, but there are so many people that wanna adopt children but can't have children. Why couldn't this person instead of get, um, having the child or you know, and keeping it, why don't they have it wait the 8 months or 10 months, have the child and give it up for adoption to the couples who really, really want a child. But then, that person can also argue, hey, that 8 to 10 months that's a whole year out of my life that's changing my body and that really does change my life in a sense. And so maybe I don't wanna partake in something like that. And so that could be an argument there, and then here's another argument, a lot of people say (Bow: One at a time, one at a time) sure, ok, but this is, this kinda goes along with that. What if the woman doesn't want that and the man, there is always a man involved, I mean, we always say it's the woman's body but, is it the man's choices as well? And what if he does want the child, and the woman doesn't. Let's attack this one.

Daisy: OK. I believe that if it's a man and a woman that are involved in a mutual loving relationship and they're living together and they have the means to have that child? I believe in that case that the man has a fifty percent ' say.' Um, if it was a casual one night affair, I don't think he has a choice, he was simply sleeping with the woman and they were mutually using each other if they, if you like, I don't think he has any say in... that woman because she had a one-night stand with him for nine months she has to bear his child. That's absurd. (Vivian: But you guys)

Luke: But what if he's saying he wants to support it and he's willing to go through with it? It's up to the woman and to, to consider. (Daisy: Yeah, it is up to her.) But the man actually if he is a full a full, uh, like a full partner in the relationship has exactly 50%? (Daisy: I think that he does have same) even though it is the woman's body 50%, exactly that? (Vivian: 50%? Would you like it to be 40?) (Vivian: I don't know...)

Luke: What would you do? If it was 50% you couldn't really dc) anything?

Daisy: You have to take it to the court, in a court of the law. (Bow: What should the law be?) What should the law be? (Bow: Yeah.) Well, i guess that they have to take. (Bow: What do you think?) What do I think? I guess every situation's gonna be different I mean that's the thing, I mean, if the woman could possibly lose her entire career. Say she's in a country like Korea where you know, I mean, some women are discriminated against if they're married and have children in the work place. Um, if it's going to discriminate against her career and she's got, she's got a great future ahead of her, then, you know, I think we should be more thinking about the woman. If it's, if it's likely that she can have more children in the future.

Luke: I'm surprised you gave the man 50%, that's why I said it.

Luke: That's very generous.

Vivian: I also take into consideration that we're kind of thinking more along the western side, I don't know about Europe or up other countries, but in America a woman has six months maternal leave. So you know, before she even shows she can take off and come back after she's had the baby. In Korea, apparently, you don't have maternal leave, you only I mean, you can only leave for one month, I'm not even sure, but you certainly don't have six months.

Daisy: Two months.

Vivian: Two Months. Anyways but, either way, I mean, the situation is totally different that would put you (Daisy: Right) totally put you back if you were in a different country.

Daisy: It would, and I think that's something to take into consideration, but even in our country, I mean even though it's more accepted and there's a lot of people that, that generally do support pro-choice. You've gotta consider religion. There are so many religious factions. In every country, and me I grow up in a Catholic family. If my father heard me talk like this, he'd probably have a cow, but these are my choices, but I'm not making my, my choice on, you know, a scientific fact or, or even a religious or emotional fact. I see it as a necessity in our society. And I do believe it's a feminist issue.

Luke: Well. That's the idea here too. It's kind of in Korea or in Asia it's a catch 22, because according to society you know you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to fornicate. But people do, because it's a natural they wanna have sex, some you know, some accidents happen, and they have a baby. But then they make abortion illegal. And you're not, and if you're pregnant out of wedlock, then you're look down on in society. So, what are you supposed to do really in that case? (Vivian: Exactly)

Bow: They set up things here, in these Confucian societies, (Vivian: Sure) you have no choices really.

Daisy: But, I do think it's become a little too common as Luke was saying before, there are some women out there that are using this as a form of contraception, which is just amoral you know, it's not acceptable. And I think that we need to kind of get back to educating people that this is not ok and it's, not.., apparently I was told by a doctor that it's not good for a woman. The more a woman has an abortion, the less chance she has of falling pregnant again.

Vivian: Right, and having a healthy baby too, and it causes pro, problems for herself, too.

Daisy: Yeah. So I think if we're gonna clamp down as a society on abortion. Not saying it's wrong that women still have these choices, but offer other al... (Vivian: Alternatives) alternatives and opportunities for them. OK. Say to the career woman. Alright. If you have this child these are the benefits that we can give you, this is the help we can give you and finding the child a good home. Um, You know with adoption and things like that. Think about if the government wants to, you know, move away from so many people having abortion, then offer other alternatives and options.

Vivian: The, the options certainly do have to be there, but also there is the moral aspect you know, which if you're doing it for contraceptive reasons or because it was an accident and you really weren't careful or because you could have it, but you couldn't. Anyways but we have to make that moral issue much more of a stronger point in society now and also, I mean, if you're doing it just you could have the baby but I just don't want to and this was just an accident. That should be like a public thing. People would.., it should be like a standard thing that we think that is not right, you know, I mean you should only do this, in the case of, this is my personal opinion, but if you were raped or, in extreme circumstances, if you're very young, and it really was an accident, and you have no other options left to you, I mean, then I think that should be an option for you.

Bow: Um, this is kind of getting back to what we were talking about, or I was talking about before with the titles of pro-choice or pro-life. But, um, have you seen the movie? What is it? If Walls Could Speak, it is all about abortion? (Vivian: Yes, If walls could talk) well, if walls could talk, yes. And in Boston, there's a lot of um, abortion clinics, and there's a lot of pro-lifers who stand outside. There was a guy that close to my house, an abortion clinic that was close to my house and a guy went in there and killed one of the doctors. He's under the title pro-life which is kind of a contradiction because he's taking a life (Daisy: Exactly) He trying to say, but his excuse is that I'm trying to save many lives by taking one, But how does that work? you know, I don't understand that.

Vivian: It's like a vigilante kind of instance, and he is kind of contradicting himself but he's saying I'll save a majority versus one. (Daisy: Right, so many babies)

Bow: I know what he's saying but, I mean, those women are gonna, have gone through the decision. The hard task of making a decision to go there, are not gonna stop there.

Daisy: Right. What is fascinating to me is, that here, there is so much talk. People's protesting outside abortion clinics today. But abortion has been around for centuries, and it wasn't performed by a doctor, it was, basically, you know, you know, you go to your local herb doctor or witch doctor, and you can, an abortion can be performed with simple herbs like ginger and parsley. And this has been going on for centuries. The African, a lot of tribes in Africa, they believe, that it is solely up to the woman as the giver of life and she is the representation of god and if she falls pregnant then it is her decision whether she brings that life forth. They believe that if that life is not wanted then why should it be brought into the world, it should brought into the world when it's loved. And they've been using these herbs for, for uh, centuries, to perform abortions, so it's not a modern day issue. It's not something, you know, in other cultures it is accepted within their religions. So you know, I, I've, I kind of don't understand why people are, maybe because it's just public now. I don't get it.

Bow: That makes it a very easy decision for the man who had impregnated the woman (Daisy: Right) in that culture. (Daisy: Right) If it's up to her. OK. You do it, he doesn't have to pay for anything and he doesn't have to have the guilt.

Daisy: He doesn't have to go out and hunt goats or something.

Vivian: OK, so I think the moral issue should be, really emphasized. I mean first of all, men should take responsibility, it's not a hit and go kind of thing, you know, you should stick around even if you weren't involved, until the process is over, and through with whether it's carrying it out to the end, or watching it through until she has the baby. And I should al... always emphasize adoption being, you know, an option. (Daisy: An option.) You know, if all else fails, hey, you know, I honestly think if that would happen to me, adoption, you know, I couldn't find other options for myself, I would always consider adoption the last resort, you know.

Vivian: Abortion, the last resort?

Daisy: No. Adoption. I mean that should be something that's there. You know, if I can't keep this baby or if we can't raise it together or something. My parents couldn't raise it. That should always be.

Luke: I do agree that, that bringing a child to term and seeking out that route, is the noble thing to do, (Vivian: Sure) but I just don't think everybody is up to it. And if they're not up to it, I mean, (Vivian: Exactly) If they are like way to stressed and. way to freaked out and they're going through this turmoil. I think a lot of the formative stuff that goes into baby's character, probably happens in the womb before it's even popped up.

Vivian: You know they're always talking about people who are raped or in, you know, abused situations where it was a very tra... (Luke: traumatic) traumatic event. Event? Ok. Incident, and so maybe they don't even want this at all.

Bow: Not always though, a friend of my grandmother's, I remember this story, when I was young, she, uh, I met her. She had a really great personality, I always thought of her as a funny lady. She was travelling in the Philippines, and was raped at, at night, she had no idea who was and she had the baby, and I remember the kid. And the kid was just like her, she raised the kid. And the kid was very happy. I believed it at that time, so it just depends on you know, who raises the kid. I suppose (Daisy: No, Yeah) ...

Vivian: We're talking about the person themselves not the baby too, I mean, it does depend on the person. You know, you could be a very young girl, and have been raped, I mean, this may be traumatic for you. Not only that but there are also health reasons, why like young children, if your body is not fully developed, you cannot carry a baby to term. It's dangerous to your body. And so a lot of doctors make that argument that, you know, if your body has not come to age yet, or it's not fully developed you're not up to bearing a baby yet.

Daisy: Well, not just that, I mean, you know, I mean, you've got a 17-year-old kid who's promiscuous and is pregnant, and you're going to leave it up to her to take care of her body for nine months? She could be drinking, (Vivian: Sure) she could be having more, you know, sex. She could be having, taking drugs she you never know. But the point that Bow made about his, the story about his grandmother I mean, in an ideal society. (Bow: Grandmother's friend.) Ah! Sorry. In an ideal society, we'd all be doing that, but it's not an ideal society. And it's up to us to provide other options or I think the only way we're gonna solve this problem is by educating our children. (Luke: Yeah) Letting them know that of course yes, abortion exists. Because if we, if we make it illegal again we're gonna have women hurting themselves. And there's gonna be butchers, you know in, uh, in abortion clinics. You know, just cutting these women up and it is just gonna go back. It'll be chaos. (Bow: Knowledge is power) So. It is. So, let's treat our kid let's teach our kids, um, so that this doesn't happen so we're not having them pregnant, they are not getting the diseases, and this doesn't become, even become an issue.

Luke: They have to have all of the options available to them. but it has to start at the very foundations of the education system again. (Daisy: Yes, yes.) It's like, and you have to, people have to impress of course. I think it’s uh, it's human nature you want to see if it's, something like that happens, you wanna see it come to term, you wanna see a new life brought into the world. That's the human, that's the basic fundamental human impulse. It's like procreate. That's the most beautiful thing. It doesn't work for everybody. It doesn't, it doesn't end happily in every situation. So for that reason I think it has to be an option. But ultimately I disagree with, with doing it. It's an, it's an, (Daisy: Abortion) it's a shitty thing that you have to go through. I'm sure. I'll never experience it, but women I know who've done it, it's been like, you know, the hardest dec.., the hardest decision they've ever had to make to go actually through with it.

Daisy: But then, the problem is that today, you know, actually I have a friend in Australia and she's had five abortions and she's 28. (Luke: Yeah) and she is using it as a form of contraception. And she said I just had my fifth abortion when I last went home, and I said to her "Do you know like know about the pill," or you know other forms of contraception. And she said, yeah but if I, if I take the pill, you know, I'm gonna gain weight, and this is just like, she's, just become such a superficial person where she can check herself in her lunch break, break into an abortion clinic, have an abortion, come out and go back to work and has no emotional attachment whatsoever.

Vivian: See? In that situation, it is extreme. (Vivian: Extreme and it's unexceptable, it's amoral, you know) Well, obviously, we have a group of people here, that.., you know we don't have any extreme people, you know, we're not extremely pro-choice or pro-life. But how about we attack this question? We obviously are kind of pro-life but also pro-choice, for the extreme pro-choice people of course they wanna say, hey, from day one, from day one the child is alive and you can't kill it after that day. Right? (Daisy: Pro-life people) Right. So I mean where exactly in your opinion is, does life begin? Because in America I think for most states, you know, abortion is legal or not, uh, or illegal in states depending on, it's their decision. But, um, usually I think it's two months is the... (Daisy: You can have an, you can have an abortion up to your first trimester) Right. Somewhere around there. So in your personal opinions how far can you take it or you shouldn't take it at all?

Bow: I already answered that earlier I said that I believe it's right from the beginning even before the egg and the sperm meet. It's life in, everything. (Vivian: Do you think?) Yeah, I believe that. (Vivian: You too, Luke? How about you Daisy?)

Daisy: Yeah, well, you know, I believe that I said that, you know, shortly after conception I believe it's becoming a child, a baby, a human. But I don't believe that it's a life until it's connected with the mother and mother has connected with it. And I believe that when the woman makes that decision that I'm going to have this child and I'm going to love this child or I'm going to carry this child, so it'll be loved by someone else then it's a life and then it's a life that it's important. It's important.

Luke: It's becomes, I just think it's a life from the beginning but as it becomes more complex, it's a trickier decision. It's sorta like how you feel bad about like, uh, killing a bird, but you don't feel bad about squashing a bug. It's all life, you don't feel bad about plucking a dandelion. It's just higher things that we see as being more close to us are harder for us to try to snuff out. And as a child develops and grows and becomes more like us with our own like genetic material. I think that's when it really starts to become uh, like you.

Vivian: The reason why I ask this question is because, sure when we look at it that way it's, it's an, a simple answer, hey, you know, it's, it's life from the beginning or what not. But what if we made that situation more complicated, what if it was your daughter, Bow, and she was raped by some stranger on the street and, listen, listen, and she is only a teenager, she's young, she was raped, she doesn't know who the hell this person was, you know, and what if she is put in that situation, what if she didn't know she was pregnant, hey? Oh! And wait, what if she's a lot of people, no, a lot of people don't show until what they're third or fourth months. Am I right, Daisy? I mean, what if she found out after the first trimester, after a certain point where a lot of people don't agree, hey, after this point you shouldn't have it. But what if the situation is totally  she's too young, she's, you know, emotionally upset, and she cannot accept this. What if she made the choice that she doesn't want it. How would you feel about that?

Bow: Now? (Vivian: Yeah) Well, that's the thing I'm the Dad of this person. You're a woman. What if it was you? What would you do? I don't, I don't know what I will do.

Vivian: Yeah, OK. What if it was your partner, and what if it is your female counterpart. Then it's your choice together, right?

Bow: Yeah, I don't know what I would do. What would you do? If it was you?

Vivian: But see that's what I'm asking. When you simply say, when is, when does life begin, and how far can you take it, you guys earlier said from day one. But then when you complicate the situation you really can't give an answer.

Daisy: Well, you can. Because the law says after your first trimester you cannot legally have an abortion, and I, I would be pretty.., uh...

Vivian: But not in all countries.

Daisy: Well, almost all of them.

Vivian: But. Let's say that wasn't true, that's, what it is the whole.

Daisy: Say that wasn't true?

Vivian: No, no, no. I'm saying the whole issue, is they're still arguing where does life begin, where does it end, whether to make this legal or not. I mean that's what I'm asking. If the situation was complicated like that I mean, it was your own daughter, or your own mate, I mean, could you say?

Luke: Once they hit elementary school, it's too late to abort.

Vivian: Yeah, I think so too.

Daisy: Yeah, definitely. I don't know, I mean that's a tough, you know, I mean, that's basically the scientific evidence that most pro-lifers are arguing with with pro-choicers. And you know, I just, the scientific information, for me it's more of uh, a spiritual thing. I think that it is wrong to just use abortion as contraception which we've all said. But I do believe that it is a connection that, that connection makes life, our connection with each other, our relationships with each other, and my future relationship with my child when I have a child I know I'm pregnant and when I accept that and I'm already loving that child and bringing it into life, that's when the connection for me would be. And I think most women feel that way.

Luke: And I think it's easy to talk about, talk about, you know, when you're in a vacuum and saying, this is the right thing, and I'm morally like this, and I believe in this thing. But, uh, yeah, unless you have experienced all the emotions that come with it. And the actual going through with it. Who knows what you're gonna do? (Daisy: Exactly) I mean, you don't know what you think. It's easy to like take this hypothetical situation, (Daisy: Sure) and say, well you know, after thinking through it and stuff, and go through all this pedantic sort of B.S. But I mean yeah, doing it is, actually where you're gonna find your answer and being put in that situation you can't rationalize that.

Bow: Well, that's why it is, what it is today. Everything's messed up, because everybody, not everybody has gone through it. So we have these opinions which we think this could be a basic foundation but people will still from now until the end of time they will still um, keep talking about this, (Daisy: Sure) and keep going through the same situations over and over again. You just keep your opinions, you know, like what you think and you try to do but you hope of course a situation like that would not happen. But if it does arise then you try to deal with it as it comes.

Daisy: Sure, that's fine. These people in the government (Luke: Speaking on your behalf of course) are going to make decisions about my future and my body, and I wanna have a say in that. I'm not impressed when conservative Rush Limbaugh or whoever else it happens to be in government at the time. Would stand up there and tell me what rights I have as a woman, and what I can do with my body, I'm offended.

Bow: But there are also republican or conservative women in congress who're voting for these laws too.

Daisy: Yes, there are. But they have a right to talk about that. Because they are women, I accept that. But I don't, I, I, draw the line when I've got a bunch full of white male conservatives discussing my future and other women's future.

Vivian: Right. I agree with that, but I do believe, I'm sorry to go against all the females out there. But I do believe they do have a word in there, because, um, a very small word. I'm not saying a big word.

Luke: I think for a woman in a situation where it wasn't uh, a mutually mutual relationship this has happened, an experience to people I know. Um, not, not a close situation, all of a sudden a pregnancy came up unexpectedly the man was, I want no part of this, and the woman was like and don't sweat it, I don't want to make you a part of it. That's fine. If you're, if you're interested in pursuing it further than go ahead but, I'm choosing to go... go ahead with this anyway. And I think the guy eventually sort of just came around to the idea. He wanted to be a part of it... like she was gonna go through with it anyways. She was like I'll find a way, I\m really gonna do this, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna do it. And then she came, and then the guy was just sort of like uh, she's doing it without me. That's half my kid, man.

Bow: Actually, you know, I think that happens in a lot of cases, um, one partner makes the decision and it's like somebody is waiting for the other one to say, yes, we can do this. And then once you get that consensus, then you go ahead and then you find out what child rearing is, child bearing and child rearing and it turns out to be a very rewarding experience. Exactly. Thank you.

Luke: A rewarding experience.

Vivian: I just wanna touch on what that just reminded me of... was. What if the woman were to go ahead and consent to this and say that she wanted the baby and there was the male who didn't want anything to do with it. Doesn't he have something to say, when he says I don't want my child being born. What about that aspect of this story, no?

Bow, Daisy: No.

Vivian: No?

Luke: I don't think so, I don't think I'd feel in a place that I've ever tell a woman, you have to take that child's life, if she felt, she felt, if she felt that she was good enough to do it and she was up for the job, no one else would be more qualified than her.

Vivian: OK. Let's wrap up with maybe a comment from each of us. How do you feel over all and maybe then, some thoughts?

Bow: Um, I think Daisy brought up a really pertinent point which was, which can kind of almost sum up everything which is that education is the key point. (Vivian: Definitely) And, uh, educate people, and let them know what's going on as much as you can, put more money into the schools for that purpose and uh...

Vivian: And the parents should get involved, too. It's not just schools, (Luke: Talk to your kids, to your kids) don't make it just the schools' or governments' responsibility.

Daisy: Hopefully, you know, if we are able to do that, if we are talking to our children, and we are teaching them in schools, getting them as much information as possible, and trusting their judgment, maybe they won't even get to the situation where they'll have to think about abortion. But, you know, we've got to do something.

Vivian: And sadly enough if you were put in that situation, this is my personal opinion, but I think each situation is different regardless if it's pregnancy, or violence, or what not. You have to kind of take it for each circumstance (Daisy: Right) on its own. We can't just judge everything.

Daisy: There is no black and white.

1. Abortion and Sexual Education的前15分钟4秒语音对应的文本


SIDE A


Ok, today we're talking about a real sensitive issue. It's abortion and of course sexual education, it all kinds of, you know, combines into each other.

Vivian: This is Viv.
Daisy: Yeap! This is Daisy. Yes, a very heated topic. I don't know what do you think. Bow.
Bow: This is Bow! It's short for Bow Seaffas. Anyway, I think this is a hot topic all over the world. So let's dig our heels in and get going.
Luke: Yeah, the life-giving force that we all have inside of us, that procreative impulse, that just seems to keep on going like a spark that can never be snuffed out. Let's rap gang.

Vivian: Hello everyone welcome and uh let's introduce ourselves.

Luke: How are you doing? This is Luke!

Bow: And I am Bow!

Daisy: And I am Daisy!

Vivian: And this is Viv!

Vivian: Today's topic is sexual education. Let's start off by saying, hey, where did you guys start off? I mean, how'd you

get your sexual education?

Daisy: Well, urn, well, actually I was kind of brought up in a very strict Catholic family and my mother was very reluctant to tell me about anything. Actually, my funny story, my sister asked me to go to the store and buy her some tampons. And I had never heard this word before, didn't even know what they were. So I went to the shop and I asked the guy for some tampons, and he gave them to me. Looking at these tiny little, cotton things and thinking, what the hell are these? I had no idea. So I gave them to my sister and asked her what they were. And she said, "Ask mom." And then I, urn, asked my mother and she wouldn't tell me for like two months. I kept hounding her, so she gave me this book that was like published in the sixties. And it still have pictures of women that use to wear those sanitary belts that they attached sanitary napkins, too. And I couldn't understand any of the words, I didn't even know what a penis or a vagina was.

Vivian: Oh! Daisy. This is brutal!

Daisy: And I was pronouncing the word, as "Penis," and "Vagina." And my cousin came to visit me, he was like talking about sex. And I said "I know what sex is." And he said, "No, you don't. What is it?" And I said, "well, it's when a man puts his penis in the women's vagina."

Vivian: Can I ask how old you were when you in first like.

Daisy: When I got this? I was probably 10 or 11 I guess. (Vivian: Really?)

Vivian: What about school education?

Bow: Urn. There was an attempt at educating students when I was, I guess, in grade four or five. I must have been just pre-pubescent at that time. (Vivian: Right) 12, Thereabouts, 11 or 12. They would take all the boys and shuttle them into another room and they would leave all the other girls in the classroom that they were in. And then the gym instructor would take us all and explain basic things very nervously. He was a gym instructor. He was about physical education. He was, part of his job description was not teaching a bunch of horny pre-pubescent boys about sex. But, um, because the curriculum had changed, he sort of got stuck with the job. And I mean it's, it's kind of stupid. I mean it should, it has to be done. But the thing is by that time, a lot of kids really do know quite a bit about sex. Just because they have older brothers or sisters who sort of fill them in or stuff, um, or their friends do and they've learned stuff from their friends in a lot of cases. So I kind of knew a lot of stuff, but it still was good to have that. I think because it sort of, am, solidified a lot of things, just so that you wouldn't be embarrassed if it ever came up like, I know there's a lot of tension for me, because there were a lot of spaces missing in the whole sex thing that I wanted to get like, you know, get smart with eventually before I actually was gonna be with a girl. I didn't wanna like just get there and be like "doh", I've never learned that part, you know. So it is not necessary. (Daisy: They told you that?) No, I need not to study the general things, you don't wanna go into it, you know, your big romantic first encounter and end up looking like a spasm, just because you, you didn't want, you know, ask your buddy. What's that for? How do you use that or whatever.

Vivian: What about the parental aspects? I mean, did your parents ever like come in and ask you or tell you anything?

Luke: My father would sometimes come up to me, and ask me if there was anything that I wanted to know, that I was curious about. Is there any, you know, sort of things that you're, you know, you'll probably, you know, starting to become a man now? Is there anything that you're curious about? Wanna know about? Of course for me, I was just ' No, that's all right. Dad, I'm fine. And he said like, All Right. Great, see what's on TV. That was good enough for us.

Vivian: And then week, he'd come back.

Luke: Just make, just let you know, you know, I'm here, if you do wanna talk about this stuff, if you don't, that's probably, you know, just as good if not better. (Daisy: That's great.)

Bow: He was available for that.

Vivian: How about you Bow?

Bow: Um, my sexual education was a little bit warped. I think it, kind of all most make me uh, deviant almost because of it. Because it was kind of in uh, little, clips of things. So like I guess, Luke was saying it was for.., fourth grade or fifth grade. You start to think about it when it happens and... There are some, you know, promiscuous people in that grade too. Sure they are. There was, this couple they were supposedly going out and there's rumor that they had, had sex. So then, everyone in that grade was like really interested in what happened, what happened. And they said, well they did it. And then they both got sick. So, we thought that, that's like what happen after you do it, you know, too early or something you get sick. But then like the second part of it was after that, I actually, caught my parents doing it. It just like walked into the room and I thought like my dad was hurting my mother. So I said "Dad, you're hurting mom." And he said, "No, just go back to bed. We're OK!" And then where it gets worse is because I went to a Catholic school. They kind of masked sex education as health, in health class. You take health. But you're taught sex education by a really big and fat ninety-year-old nun who says if anybody laughs, I'm gonna whack you on the back of your head. People laughed and I laughed and then she said like this is the penis and this is the vagina... Boom! you got whacked in the back of your head. So now I like uh, when I have relations I feel like I'm gonna get whacked in the back of my head in a minute.

Daisy: Which you do anyway!

Bow: Turns me on.

Luke: It still true that I feel if you laugh during any sort of sexual stuff, you usually get a slap in a face.

Vivian: Are we talking from experience here, right?

Luke: Oh, yes, sure. I haven't had sex, yet.

Bow: Oh yeah sure. So, but I'm think uh, nowadays, like I sound like a real dad like: "When I was back in school," but, it's true like I think people are more aware of it, at least in North America, and they're making it a priority their kins take this sexed. As a whole class not as under the guise of health class.

Vivian: Right. I think in the past ten, maybe 15 years, especially in the American school system with the addition of sex education. It may not necessarily be a class you can select it as an elective when you enter high school. But usually you get this class during the end of your elementary or beginning of your junior high years, you get a couple of classes with the health teacher or the nurse. And they teach you, you know, all the basic functions of the body including, you know, all the sexual parts, and that has changed the educational system a lot. As matter of fact, there's lots of parents who are totally against having sexed in school. They don't like the fact of the school teaching it and so usually you get parental permission before your child can enter that class.

Daisy: Well, when I'm, I was in elementary school, um, I went to a Catholic school. And they didn't teach it in the school but what they did to satisfy the parents who wanted the education was have all the kids go to the local church after school. And sit down while the priest and the nun gave us sex education. Which is ironic.

Vivian: That sounds similar to Bow's situation.

Luke: That's why that, you know. Catholic school girls have such a bad reputation cause they do just the opposite of what they are not supposed to do.

Vivian: Exactly.

Daisy: But, um, basically, just the biological functions they taught us, you know, woman menstruate. And this is what happens and then when I went to high school I had a class like that it was called health. They were very liberal they taught us about contraception, sexual diseases, everything from drugs, tobacco, alcohol, all those things that you know I guess kids are tempted by. And I thought it was good. Actually, I found the class very interesting because I never had that education in elementary school, and I know more I think about those things like sexual diseases than any of my friends do because I remember that. I think it's really important to teach kids that, and give them that sexual education.

Bow: The thing that's um, strange are the statistics like today, because you know, say from the forties for example to the sixties, or late fifties even though sex education it was kind of weird talk about it and it was really scientific and stuff, but there was less teenage pregnancy then, than there is now when they're really adamant about teaching these things in school. So like is it just that the kids are not listening or do they think they no more than more people? I don't know.

Luke: I think it's that, I think the reason that parents are against it is because they think that their children are becoming educated about the wrong things at too early an age, but the truth is that kids are growing up they're, they're maturing a lot faster. (Daisy: Right. Much more promiscuous than they used to be.) Not necessarily pre-mascuous, but I mean that they come of, they sort of come of age a little earlier and they, urn, they go through these changes a little earlier and the thing is they are going to get, they are gonna get educated, they are gonna learn about sex, they're gonna be curious about it, from a young age. It's probably better that like they learn about it on TVs and movies and music, and on the Internet. But they don't have that sort of, urn, educational aspect, and sort of like what you should do, maybe and what you shouldn't do. That's why sex education it's not like they're gonna, just go through life, not even hearing about sex, not wondering about it or curious about it, if they don't get sex education. But the sex education is good in that, it sort of says now just be smarter about it, you know, like put this on or use this or like maybe, maybe it's better to wait. You got to think of your options and if they won't get that out of a school setting, they just get sex is dirty, it's kinda interesting. They're just curious about it and they want to learn about it.

Vivian: For me, you know, my parents never sat me down, even to these day, we've never talked about that topic. I mean, we never had that birds and the bees little talk that everyone get. So my first contact with that kind of information was in elementary school, just like Luke said, we had the little class where the school nurse actually took you aside, and separated you and told you about the anatomy. Perhaps the girls could, you know, run into their menstrual cycle any time soon now. You should go talk to parents. And they gave us this little sample of the sanitary napkins. So when I first ran into my little accident, you know, I had that little sample that the teacher gave me and so 'Thank God!' You know, cause my mom and I never talked about that. And then my second encounter with that sort of information was in junior high, when we had the health class that Daisy was talking about. We had the health class where we talked about all sorts of things starting with drugs and going down to, you know, the aca-, uh, anatomy and sex and what not, and I think when you're younger, because children talk, uh, she went out with so and so and they did this and that, of course, you know, the movies and videos all sorts of information that you get on TV. There's a lot of things that aren't factual but you know lots of rumor things that you think may be true and sexual education kind of reinforces what you know, and what may not be factual and a lot of myths get cleared out of the way, you know, about STDs, and AIDS and drugs and getting this disease and that of course pregnancy and what not.

Bow: Urn, yeah, O.K. But, I think, uh, one of the things that you're saying is that you're unfortunate to not have the talk with your parents, like everybody does, I don't think many people do get that talk actually. I think it's very rare that people do and I think like the movie "American Pie," that's why it was so funny with the father "Eugene Levvy" like "Son here's a couple of magazines for you." Everybody could relate to that, because that's what parents do. I think it's just kind of weird to talk to your kids about and they try to do it, cause they think it's their duty, but it doesn't really help. I don't think so.

Daisy: I think it's just probably; it's a really awkward thing. Because you know a mother-daughter or father-son relationship is, you know, extremely sensitive where that area is concerned. A mother doesn't or father doesn't want his daughter to be, you know, even having sexual feelings. So I think it's very difficult for them, but that's why I think, urn, because they're families like that, that do have difficulties discussing those things, that it is absolutely, urn, of the utmost importance, that education be in schools, compulsory. The government should make that the law whether parents don't like it or not especially in this day and age. I don't care what country you're in, even if you're in Korea, and they say there's no AIDS which is just, just misinformation, you know, there are, other sexual diseases out there, that can stay with you for life, and you know, that might not be life threatening but they are not certainly not comfortable, and you know, there's AIDS, there's... Oh, there're so many different things. (Vivian: STDs, sure) You know, other than pregnancy to worry about (Luke: Psychological things) Sure.

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2. Abortion and Sexual Education  A2 的15分到29分6秒语音对应的文本



Vivian: I definitely agree with Daisy, there. That's definitely true and then also it doesn't just rely on the government or the schools. People always say, hey, it starts with the home and it really does, and for example, I mean, if you were to put yourself in those same shoes, if I had a daughter or a son, I mean, I eventually know I have to talk to them, sure, this is the position that many parents are put in is. I need eventually talk to my child about something like this but "Are they there yet", so it's kind of like, kind of, you know, test you out, maybe test out the waters by coming out and saying... "So, is there any thing you wanna talk about?" kind of like in Luke's situation. But then of course the kids in the same situation were there, it's an awkward topic for them, too. And so they're not gonna say, yeah. Dad actually I wanna know about this. So they just keep avoiding the topic. So you never end up talking about it even though your child maybe 16, 18, 20. You never want to admit to yourself. Oh, my child is sexually active or is going to be, and so you never wanna really go in and you know. Yes, Bow.

Bow: Um, yeah, that’s exactly right. That's how I felt when I first had my daughter, and I thought "oh" I'm just gonna be a strict dad and she's never gonna have sex, she's not gonna be with boys and all this stuffs. And then I met, uh, another father, who has a similar situation. We called him a Cooter. Cooter's opinion was that, that's so stupid. I mean she's just gonna rebel against you even more, she gonna become like a prostitute, she's gonna do it for money, you know it's just a natural res.., res.., natural thing, you know. That's what people do.

Vivian: God forbid your daughter does that ten years from now.

Bow: Yeah, ok. But um, anyway I kind of realized, you're exactly right, and I can't do that, I can't like, you know lock her up, and put a chastity belt on her, or get the chastity rings... I just have to kind of try to raise her, naturally in hope like she'll be smart enough to make her own decisions. (Daisy: Hope that she has good judgment)

Vivian: I definitely think that the more informed you are, the smarter you are, think about it, when you look at two 18-year-olds, for example, and you have one that is very much educated and aware of her surroundings, and current events and what not. One that is not so much aware of everything and informed. When you see the ignorance and the naivete of one child versus the other, you know, that person that has more knowledge, you know, yeah they're, they know what's going on, but then also they're gonna be, more aware of the bad things and they are gonna be smart about their choices and decisions versus the ones that are not so aware and so out of curiosity and ignorance she's gonna go in there and most likely be in a lot more dangerous situations.

Luke: I think all kids respond to, uh, to just frankness and openness. And it's really hard to do with a topic like that, but I find that like coddling kids and just going like goo-goo ga-ga and stuff often they're just like, OK, someone's making stupid voices to me. That's not how they really talk when they're among themselves, so I think they'd really respond to, to a subject like that which is very sensitive if you can just show them you're comfortable talking about it like at an early age even if you are not. If you can just sort of I don't know be open about that stuff, be available to talk about those sort of things. I think it wouldn't be such, such a hard thing to talk about because it really is a natural thing, you know it's such an obvious thing and it's just all this other sort of social conditions that make it sort of dodge to talk about, you know.

Vivian: And who here at the age of 15 or 16, didn't think that they were mature enough or adult enough to hear something like this, when your parents do talk to you like that you're "Yeah, whatever", and then it just makes you revolt against them more, when they speak to you at such a level, you know, when they if your parents had actually talking you at the age of 15 and sat you aside and sai. "Hey, you're an adult now, you're mature enough to listen to this. Hey, let's just talk to each other like adults. This is how it is, and if you're gonna get involved or I would prefer that you don't let me know this is how it goes. If they are very frank with you, I mean, I honestly think that, yeah, I would probably respond, not only with that, you know, the whole sexual aspects but with many other aspects as well, at a much more mature level. And probably grown up a little bit.

Bow: You're saying that if your parents were frank with you then (Vivian: Yeah, I'm just) I disagree with that. (Vivian: You do why?) Because I think the point that you made that teenagers, urn, do think that they are mature because of that reason they don't wanna listen to anybody. And I think you don't realize that until you become an adult, and I think if you're frank with them, yeah, they could be "yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever."

Daisy: Yeah, but it depends on the attitude that you have towards them, I mean if you're treating your children like a baby the entire time, I mean that, (Luke: And suddenly come up and say, OK, let's talk about the birds and bees.) Exactly.

Luke: I mean you have to open with them even from a young age like just sort of let them know like "this is what makes girls girls, this is makes boys boys," and like start at the really basic stuff like that, I mean.

Vivian: Cause the entire raising the child experience is an educational thing from very the beginning it leads gradually, and slowly, and eventually toward the sex education thing as well.

Bow: OK thanks. I'll remember that.

Daisy: Well, you know, I just think that we're so way beyond on this discussion I don't think it's even about how we approach it with out kids any more. I think it should be forced down their throats. I think whether the government has to do that, the school has to do that, or the parents, it should be made some law that makes it compulsory. Because I am not, I don't want my child, if, even if she can't talk to me even if I have a great relationship with my child, if he or she can't talk to me, I wanna know she's getting that information somewhere else. (Vivian: Right) Because it's just way to dangerous. You take Korea, for an example, you know, here's a country that has basically, my niece, I asked what she gets in school. And they're still just giving them the biological processes, you menstruate, the penis is inserted into the vagina and so on, and so on, so on. And she really knows nothing about how to protect herself from pregnancy. She doesn't know anything about sexual diseases. She still thinks, and so does the rest of Korea, which just makes me insanely angry, that you can get AIDS by drinking out of the same cup as someone, you know, I mean, it's just misinformation, and the thing, this is a country that has nightclubs that have professional, you know, dm, hookers working there. And it's not just Korea. It's the rest of Asia as well, and urn, it's ok to have hookers working in nightclubs as, you know, girls that peel your fruit or pour your drink. But it's not ok to teach the rest of the country that you need to wear a condom that you need to protect yourself, that there's AIDS, there's other sexual diseases out there.

Luke: What are the names of those night clubs?

Vivian: Anyways, I do have to agree with Daisy on one point is the actual amount of education you are getting and at what age, too. As I was saying before, I learned about the anatomy in elementary school. But then like said especially when you are at that age you're very sensitive and you hear a lot of information and that's not actually factual, a lot of it is, just a lot of gossip that kids pass around. Hey, if you do this, you get this. This happens to you such and such. Literally, ninety percent of it is all false, I mean, its false information and you should be informed with factual information whether it’s from school, or homes or whatever. And even to this day, even from adults that I speak to, my friends. There's a lot of people that are totally misinformed about certain things, I mean, they may know it up to a certain point, but then that they don't know the, the rest of it. You know, I mean I'm talking about 30-year-old adults who don't know the, the entire picture, you know, and I mean, when these children are going up to junior high and they know basically the, the little skeleton, but they don't know the meaty part of it, and then they hear all these rumors. Even though, you think you're supposed to know you're not so sure, and when you hear these rumors. Oh, that must be true, I mean, if they get factual information instead of being misinformed by their peers, wouldn't that change a lot of things.

Luke: Sure. I was growing up, uh, a lot of, uh, people that I knew who were starting to experiment with sex under the understanding that you couldn't get pregnant the first time. And you couldn't get pregnant if you did it in a certain position, if the girl was on top or something. So that was sort of a form of birth control, you know. I wonder how many people got themselves in a lot of trouble. It's the first time. Forget about it.

Bow: Girls believe that. You win there.

Vivian: I have a totally prime example; this is just something recent that I had recently read. I heard that in Korea a form of, I think, I don't know, if it was Korea or America whatever, but maybe twenty years ago, a form of birth control was pulling out before the male ejaculated. (Luke: It helps.) It helps, yeah, but that is not 100 percent. That is not (Daisy: Coitus interrupt us) contraception. That is totally not, you know, and I was trying to explain, no actually. You know, it leaks out a little bit, and then also even, and that's totally not contraception. And then the second fact which wasn't a fact was, um, there were many women that were confused as to when you're menstruating if you have intercourse, you couldn't get pregnant, or when you're menstruating that was the time when you do get, you know, pregnant, which was true. And so they were confused as to which was actually true. And so that is very dangerous information to have, if you are on the wrong side of.

Daisy: Well, that's the rhythm method, and that's what the Catholic Church tried to get everybody to use it and that's why Catholic parents have so many children. (Luke: That's why it's the main religion in Christianity.)

Vivian: If you're to go to a doctor, ask him if this is true or not, he probably would laugh in your face, because, first of all, this is not a way to, you know, protect yourself, and perhaps if you don't wanna conceive children that is not the way to go about things. And second, it isn't true, you know, I mean that is totally false information.

Luke: But it's hard, if people don't, if kids don't have anywhere to go to other than friends' who also don't know the score, and if parents aren't really forthcoming with that kind of information and they don't get it in the schools, like where are they gonna get it.

Daisy: That's why, you know, I urge, you know parents to go and join their PTA to write their local member to get their governments to do something to make it compulsory in schools.

Bow: I think it is actually in the States (Luke: It is.) (Vivian: In America) the problem is, with that is, even though like anything else, US history is compulsory, but you gotta, a lot of kids in the poor neighborhoods don't go to school. (Daisy: Right) So they are not showing up for the class, you know.

Daisy: Well that's why I think that there needs to be some type of standard in, you know, in sex education in schools, and as Bow said, you know, of course there are the poor kids, you know, in poor neighborhood that aren't getting that education. But there are you know, I, I, the government even in the states, is trying to do things about that I mean, they've got welfare offices set up and people that go out, they talk to women who are single mothers having children and give them information about, you know, how to protect themselves both from sexual disease, and pregnancy. And I think it has to be a national effort in any country that you live in. If you have children and you're not involved, then you're not doing enough. You have to go, you have to write to your local member. You have to go to the village meeting, discuss these things they're important. And if you're not involved, then if your child does get pregnant then you are responsible for that.

Vivian: And I think this eventually leads to another question that is actually a very hot issue, especially in the western countries these days. I mean, what if all of this sexual education, it didn't work out in the end. Hey, what if, uh, it just didn't work out the way you wanted it for, your daughter or son? What if they did get pregnant or what if they got someone else pregnant, they'd been a situation where what? They may be students and they couldn't finish their education or they'd be force to have home education. There is a lot of situations going on out there. And of course even as a young adult or an elder adult, you may get pregnant and that is not the situation that you had planned on. There are some options out there for you and they're difficult options, and we can discuss some of the options first, and see how we all feel about this, um, obviously the topic is adopt.., um, I'm sorry, adoption? Ok. Those are one of the choices, yeah, that's one of the choices, but abortion. It is a really hot steamy issue, lots of people get very urn, sensitive about this one, so let's start off by saying like where we kind of stand. Are you pro? Or Are you against abortion? Are you for abortion? And second let's talk about the choices that are involved with that. You wanna start up Bow? Are you (Bow: Me?) Luke?

Bow: Um, I think that.

Vivian: What side are you on first?

Bow: I don't choose either side, I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. But I do, I believe that, um, there shouldn't be an abortion if people are, can be responsible, if they have the ability to be responsible, but they're just choosing not to be because oh, it's gonna be so hard on me. I don't agree with that. I agree in extreme situations where depending on how that child is gonna be raised, if the child is gonna grow up to be, you know, raised in a terrible environment then maybe the best choice would be to, you know, go ahead for the abortion. Um, if it had to do with a mother's health, um, basically yes.

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Vivian: OK. Let's, let's get back to that in a little, in a minute here. We can talk about the details. OK, Daisy. Do you wanna tell us where you stand?

Daisy: OK. Well, actually I just wanna to ask Bow a question. Um, I just wanna to ask him if you do have like obviously I understand what you're saying and probably pretty much most peoples' views are the same, but how could you make a law to make a standard for that type of thing, how could you say: it's ok for this person to have an abortion but it's not ok for a woman in her thirties who's not married, but has the financial ability to have a child?

Vivian: There's a wide grey area.

Bow: Yeah, I don't know, it's, I don't, I'm not a law maker, I don't know that is still uh, just, uh, just my opinion. That's what I think, (Vivian: Exactly) and I, it should be talked about more. People that do make laws and people that do make theirs, you know, who have these problems and these situations come up, and we should be talked about.

Luke: But you're basically pro-choice, but you don't think you don't feel that, that it should be used as a form of birth-control for example. (Vivian: It shouldn't be abused.)

Bow: If you have to label it, but I think, you know within the label of pro- choice or extreme pro-choice people, and there are extreme pro-life. But I'm more you know, in the middle of both of those.

Luke: Of course, I would say the same. I would say that I'm definitely pro- choice, but I think that yeah, abortion is not something that you just, you just, sort of do for the heck of it. But I don't think, I don't think that's any human, in a person's nature, I mean, if someone's gonna, gonna have a child, a woman is, obviously, is gonna have the child, there's gonna be some kind of attachment to, and some kind of like psychological factor there. That doesn't make it an easy decision in any, in any situation. I think if it's a repeated thing, if it's, it happens continually, there's a obviously problem there and I don't know, it's hard to regulate that (Bow: Yeah) but I also, I don't think that someone who's definitely not ready, and not interested in raising a child and isn't gonna give a 100%, or isn't just like, mentally and emotionally prepared for that, for that to happen. I don't know if it's if it's a wise move and if there not, if they're not fully committed to it. That's the first sign that it's, uh, no, shouldn't do it, shouldn't be done, shouldn't happen, do the abortion, give the child, like a fair shot a having a real life kind of thing.

Vivian: So both you guys are kind of in the pro-choice section but not very, you know, (Daisy: Pro-life) right.

Bow: I don't think for the extreme pro-choice people who say like, uh, it's gonna ruin my career and this kind of thing, if that person has confidence in themselves, and I believe that they could rise above that, they could take care of a child, and then, I think once that they started to raise the child and they could, people do it all the time, they have careers and they raise children, they become successful. And the children go to college and they become successful, and become a great member of society. But did you say like to look ahead into the future and say no, this is just gonna ruin everything for me, so, I'm just gonna, you know, cut this embryo out, and it's nothing, it doesn't mean anything, but I believe that the, um, pro-, extreme pro-choicers say that it's not a life yet and, but I don't believe, I believe it is a life, it's not a human yet. But it is, it is life, like every cell in your body's life, plants are life, you know. So that's my opinion. (Luke: Yeah)

Vivian: OK, Daisy. Where do you stand? Do you have a firm stand on either way?

Daisy: Well, I'm definitely pro-choice. I believe that abortion should be, should be legal. But for different reasons. Not because I don't believe that a fetus is, urn, not a baby yet. I believe exactly the same thing that Brandan does, not because I believe that a fetus is not a baby at that point, I do believe it is a baby. Probably very soon after conception. Um, I'm in agreement with Bow, there. But, I, I believe it is a necessary evil of our society and that what we were discussing before sex education. We've been negligent and, um, therefore many women are falling pregnant and don't have an option of course there are these women that are career women and saying that it won't fit in my life. But if that woman is so selfish at that point. I would rather, there are so many children that are neglected, in our societies today, I'd rather she get rid of it than have it, because, rather than seeing another child being brought up in a, uh, a selfish home (Vivian: Right) with a selfish mother. But I do feel that if we go back to the 1950s where women were having backyard abortions, sticking coat hangers up themselves and damaging themselves for life so they couldn't have another child or women that are raped by their family, or strangers on the street and have to hate that child for their entire life. I don't think that's fair. I think the law should be there to protect women, and I think it's a total feminist issue. And I'm enraged when I hear men in government talk about it.

Vivian: Well, there's a lot of details about each side, you know, for example, I could just bring up the fact, um, lots of people like for women, lots of people think it's the women's choice, it is her body. No, I could always say. OK, but there are so many people that wanna adopt children but can't have children. Why couldn't this person instead of get, um, having the child or you know, and keeping it, why don't they have it wait the 8 months or 10 months, have the child and give it up for adoption to the couples who really, really want a child. But then, that person can also argue, hey, that 8 to 10 months that's a whole year out of my life that's changing my body and that really does change my life in a sense. And so maybe I don't wanna partake in something like that. And so that could be an argument there, and then here's another argument, a lot of people say (Bow: One at a time, one at a time) sure, ok, but this is, this kinda goes along with that. What if the woman doesn't want that and the man, there is always a man involved, I mean, we always say it's the woman's body but, is it the man's choices as well? And what if he does want the child, and the woman doesn't. Let's attack this one.

Daisy: OK. I believe that if it's a man and a woman that are involved in a mutual loving relationship and they're living together and they have the means to have that child? I believe in that case that the man has a fifty percent ' say.' Um, if it was a casual one night affair, I don't think he has a choice, he was simply sleeping with the woman and they were mutually using each other if they, if you like, I don't think he has any say in... that woman because she had a one-night stand with him for nine months she has to bear his child. That's absurd. (Vivian: But you guys)

Luke: But what if he's saying he wants to support it and he's willing to go through with it? It's up to the woman and to, to consider. (Daisy: Yeah, it is up to her.) But the man actually if he is a full a full, uh, like a full partner in the relationship has exactly 50%? (Daisy: I think that he does have same) even though it is the woman's body 50%, exactly that? (Vivian: 50%? Would you like it to be 40?) (Vivian: I don't know...)

Luke: What would you do? If it was 50% you couldn't really dc) anything?

Daisy: You have to take it to the court, in a court of the law. (Bow: What should the law be?) What should the law be? (Bow: Yeah.) Well, i guess that they have to take. (Bow: What do you think?) What do I think? I guess every situation's gonna be different I mean that's the thing, I mean, if the woman could possibly lose her entire career. Say she's in a country like Korea where you know, I mean, some women are discriminated against if they're married and have children in the work place. Um, if it's going to discriminate against her career and she's got, she's got a great future ahead of her, then, you know, I think we should be more thinking about the woman. If it's, if it's likely that she can have more children in the future.

Luke: I'm surprised you gave the man 50%, that's why I said it.

Luke: That's very generous.

Vivian: I also take into consideration that we're kind of thinking more along the western side, I don't know about Europe or up other countries, but in America a woman has six months maternal leave. So you know, before she even shows she can take off and come back after she's had the baby. In Korea, apparently, you don't have maternal leave, you only I mean, you can only leave for one month, I'm not even sure, but you certainly don't have six months.

Daisy: Two months.

Vivian: Two Months. Anyways but, either way, I mean, the situation is totally different that would put you (Daisy: Right) totally put you back if you were in a different country.

Daisy: It would, and I think that's something to take into consideration, but even in our country, I mean even though it's more accepted and there's a lot of people that, that generally do support pro-choice. You've gotta consider religion. There are so many religious factions. In every country, and me I grow up in a Catholic family. If my father heard me talk like this, he'd probably have a cow, but these are my choices, but I'm not making my, my choice on, you know, a scientific fact or, or even a religious or emotional fact. I see it as a necessity in our society. And I do believe it's a feminist issue.

Luke: Well. That's the idea here too. It's kind of in Korea or in Asia it's a catch 22, because according to society you know you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to fornicate. But people do, because it's a natural they wanna have sex, some you know, some accidents happen, and they have a baby. But then they make abortion illegal. And you're not, and if you're pregnant out of wedlock, then you're look down on in society. So, what are you supposed to do really in that case? (Vivian: Exactly)

Bow: They set up things here, in these Confucian societies, (Vivian: Sure) you have no choices really.

Daisy: But, I do think it's become a little too common as Luke was saying before, there are some women out there that are using this as a form of contraception, which is just amoral you know, it's not acceptable. And I think that we need to kind of get back to educating people that this is not ok and it's, not.., apparently I was told by a doctor that it's not good for a woman. The more a woman has an abortion, the less chance she has of falling pregnant again.

Vivian: Right, and having a healthy baby too, and it causes pro, problems for herself, too.

Daisy: Yeah. So I think if we're gonna clamp down as a society on abortion. Not saying it's wrong that women still have these choices, but offer other al... (Vivian: Alternatives) alternatives and opportunities for them. OK. Say to the career woman. Alright. If you have this child these are the benefits that we can give you, this is the help we can give you and finding the child a good home. Um, You know with adoption and things like that. Think about if the government wants to, you know, move away from so many people having abortion, then offer other alternatives and options.

Vivian: The, the options certainly do have to be there, but also there is the moral aspect you know, which if you're doing it for contraceptive reasons or because it was an accident and you really weren't careful or because you could have it, but you couldn't. Anyways but we have to make that moral issue much more of a stronger point in society now and also, I mean, if you're doing it just you could have the baby but I just don't want to and this was just an accident. That should be like a public thing. People would.., it should be like a standard thing that we think that is not right, you know, I mean you should only do this, in the case of, this is my personal opinion, but if you were raped or, in extreme circumstances, if you're very young, and it really was an accident, and you have no other options left to you, I mean, then I think that should be an option for you.

Bow: Um, this is kind of getting back to what we were talking about, or I was talking about before with the titles of pro-choice or pro-life. But, um, have you seen the movie? What is it? If Walls Could Speak, it is all about abortion? (Vivian: Yes, If walls could talk) well, if walls could talk, yes. And in Boston, there's a lot of um, abortion clinics, and there's a lot of pro-lifers who stand outside. There was a guy that close to my house, an abortion clinic that was close to my house and a guy went in there and killed one of the doctors. He's under the title pro-life which is kind of a contradiction because he's taking a life (Daisy: Exactly) He trying to say, but his excuse is that I'm trying to save many lives by taking one, But how does that work? you know, I don't understand that.

Vivian: It's like a vigilante kind of instance, and he is kind of contradicting himself but he's saying I'll save a majority versus one. (Daisy: Right, so many babies)

Bow: I know what he's saying but, I mean, those women are gonna, have gone through the decision. The hard task of making a decision to go there, are not gonna stop there.

Daisy: Right. What is fascinating to me is, that here, there is so much talk. People's protesting outside abortion clinics today. But abortion has been around for centuries, and it wasn't performed by a doctor, it was, basically, you know, you know, you go to your local herb doctor or witch doctor, and you can, an abortion can be performed with simple herbs like ginger and parsley. And this has been going on for centuries. The African, a lot of tribes in Africa, they believe, that it is solely up to the woman as the giver of life and she is the representation of god and if she falls pregnant then it is her decision whether she brings that life forth. They believe that if that life is not wanted then why should it be brought into the world, it should brought into the world when it's loved. And they've been using these herbs for, for uh, centuries, to perform abortions, so it's not a modern day issue. It's not something, you know, in other cultures it is accepted within their religions. So you know, I, I've, I kind of don't understand why people are, maybe because it's just public now. I don't get it.

分拆语音

4. Abortion and Sexual Education  B1 的43分38.36秒到58分43秒结束的语音文本


Bow: That makes it a very easy decision for the man who had impregnated the woman (Daisy: Right) in that culture. (Daisy: Right) If it's up to her. OK. You do it, he doesn't have to pay for anything and he doesn't have to have the guilt.

Daisy: He doesn't have to go out and hunt goats or something.

Vivian: OK, so I think the moral issue should be, really emphasized. I mean first of all, men should take responsibility, it's not a hit and go kind of thing, you know, you should stick around even if you weren't involved, until the process is over, and through with whether it's carrying it out to the end, or watching it through until she has the baby. And I should al... always emphasize adoption being, you know, an option. (Daisy: An option.) You know, if all else fails, hey, you know, I honestly think if that would happen to me, adoption, you know, I couldn't find other options for myself, I would always consider adoption the last resort, you know.

Vivian: Abortion, the last resort?

Daisy: No. Adoption. I mean that should be something that's there. You know, if I can't keep this baby or if we can't raise it together or something. My parents couldn't raise it. That should always be.

Luke: I do agree that, that bringing a child to term and seeking out that route, is the noble thing to do, (Vivian: Sure) but I just don't think everybody is up to it. And if they're not up to it, I mean, (Vivian: Exactly) If they are like way to stressed and. way to freaked out and they're going through this turmoil. I think a lot of the formative stuff that goes into baby's character, probably happens in the womb before it's even popped up.

Vivian: You know they're always talking about people who are raped or in, you know, abused situations where it was a very tra... (Luke: traumatic) traumatic event. Event? Ok. Incident, and so maybe they don't even want this at all.

Bow: Not always though, a friend of my grandmother's, I remember this story, when I was young, she, uh, I met her. She had a really great personality, I always thought of her as a funny lady. She was travelling in the Philippines, and was raped at, at night, she had no idea who was and she had the baby, and I remember the kid. And the kid was just like her, she raised the kid. And the kid was very happy. I believed it at that time, so it just depends on you know, who raises the kid. I suppose (Daisy: No, Yeah) ...

Vivian: We're talking about the person themselves not the baby too, I mean, it does depend on the person. You know, you could be a very young girl, and have been raped, I mean, this may be traumatic for you. Not only that but there are also health reasons, why like young children, if your body is not fully developed, you cannot carry a baby to term. It's dangerous to your body. And so a lot of doctors make that argument that, you know, if your body has not come to age yet, or it's not fully developed you're not up to bearing a baby yet.

Daisy: Well, not just that, I mean, you know, I mean, you've got a 17-year-old kid who's promiscuous and is pregnant, and you're going to leave it up to her to take care of her body for nine months? She could be drinking, (Vivian: Sure) she could be having more, you know, sex. She could be having, taking drugs she you never know. But the point that Bow made about his, the story about his grandmother I mean, in an ideal society. (Bow: Grandmother's friend.) Ah! Sorry. In an ideal society, we'd all be doing that, but it's not an ideal society. And it's up to us to provide other options or I think the only way we're gonna solve this problem is by educating our children. (Luke: Yeah) Letting them know that of course yes, abortion exists. Because if we, if we make it illegal again we're gonna have women hurting themselves. And there's gonna be butchers, you know in, uh, in abortion clinics. You know, just cutting these women up and it is just gonna go back. It'll be chaos. (Bow: Knowledge is power) So. It is. So, let's treat our kid let's teach our kids, um, so that this doesn't happen so we're not having them pregnant, they are not getting the diseases, and this doesn't become, even become an issue.

Luke: They have to have all of the options available to them. but it has to start at the very foundations of the education system again. (Daisy: Yes, yes.) It's like, and you have to, people have to impress of course. I think it’s uh, it's human nature you want to see if it's, something like that happens, you wanna see it come to term, you wanna see a new life brought into the world. That's the human, that's the basic fundamental human impulse. It's like procreate. That's the most beautiful thing. It doesn't work for everybody. It doesn't, it doesn't end happily in every situation. So for that reason I think it has to be an option. But ultimately I disagree with, with doing it. It's an, it's an, (Daisy: Abortion) it's a shitty thing that you have to go through. I'm sure. I'll never experience it, but women I know who've done it, it's been like, you know, the hardest dec.., the hardest decision they've ever had to make to go actually through with it.

Daisy: But then, the problem is that today, you know, actually I have a friend in Australia and she's had five abortions and she's 28. (Luke: Yeah) and she is using it as a form of contraception. And she said I just had my fifth abortion when I last went home, and I said to her "Do you know like know about the pill," or you know other forms of contraception. And she said, yeah but if I, if I take the pill, you know, I'm gonna gain weight, and this is just like, she's, just become such a superficial person where she can check herself in her lunch break, break into an abortion clinic, have an abortion, come out and go back to work and has no emotional attachment whatsoever.

Vivian: See? In that situation, it is extreme. (Vivian: Extreme and it's unexceptable, it's amoral, you know) Well, obviously, we have a group of people here, that.., you know we don't have any extreme people, you know, we're not extremely pro-choice or pro-life. But how about we attack this question? We obviously are kind of pro-life but also pro-choice, for the extreme pro-choice people of course they wanna say, hey, from day one, from day one the child is alive and you can't kill it after that day. Right? (Daisy: Pro-life people) Right. So I mean where exactly in your opinion is, does life begin? Because in America I think for most states, you know, abortion is legal or not, uh, or illegal in states depending on, it's their decision. But, um, usually I think it's two months is the... (Daisy: You can have an, you can have an abortion up to your first trimester) Right. Somewhere around there. So in your personal opinions how far can you take it or you shouldn't take it at all?

Bow: I already answered that earlier I said that I believe it's right from the beginning even before the egg and the sperm meet. It's life in, everything. (Vivian: Do you think?) Yeah, I believe that. (Vivian: You too, Luke? How about you Daisy?)

Daisy: Yeah, well, you know, I believe that I said that, you know, shortly after conception I believe it's becoming a child, a baby, a human. But I don't believe that it's a life until it's connected with the mother and mother has connected with it. And I believe that when the woman makes that decision that I'm going to have this child and I'm going to love this child or I'm going to carry this child, so it'll be loved by someone else then it's a life and then it's a life that it's important. It's important.

Luke: It's becomes, I just think it's a life from the beginning but as it becomes more complex, it's a trickier decision. It's sorta like how you feel bad about like, uh, killing a bird, but you don't feel bad about squashing a bug. It's all life, you don't feel bad about plucking a dandelion. It's just higher things that we see as being more close to us are harder for us to try to snuff out. And as a child develops and grows and becomes more like us with our own like genetic material. I think that's when it really starts to become uh, like you.

Vivian: The reason why I ask this question is because, sure when we look at it that way it's, it's an, a simple answer, hey, you know, it's, it's life from the beginning or what not. But what if we made that situation more complicated, what if it was your daughter, Bow, and she was raped by some stranger on the street and, listen, listen, and she is only a teenager, she's young, she was raped, she doesn't know who the hell this person was, you know, and what if she is put in that situation, what if she didn't know she was pregnant, hey? Oh! And wait, what if she's a lot of people, no, a lot of people don't show until what they're third or fourth months. Am I right, Daisy? I mean, what if she found out after the first trimester, after a certain point where a lot of people don't agree, hey, after this point you shouldn't have it. But what if the situation is totally  she's too young, she's, you know, emotionally upset, and she cannot accept this. What if she made the choice that she doesn't want it. How would you feel about that?

Bow: Now? (Vivian: Yeah) Well, that's the thing I'm the Dad of this person. You're a woman. What if it was you? What would you do? I don't, I don't know what I will do.

Vivian: Yeah, OK. What if it was your partner, and what if it is your female counterpart. Then it's your choice together, right?

Bow: Yeah, I don't know what I would do. What would you do? If it was you?

Vivian: But see that's what I'm asking. When you simply say, when is, when does life begin, and how far can you take it, you guys earlier said from day one. But then when you complicate the situation you really can't give an answer.

Daisy: Well, you can. Because the law says after your first trimester you cannot legally have an abortion, and I, I would be pretty.., uh...

Vivian: But not in all countries.

Daisy: Well, almost all of them.

Vivian: But. Let's say that wasn't true, that's, what it is the whole.

Daisy: Say that wasn't true?

Vivian: No, no, no. I'm saying the whole issue, is they're still arguing where does life begin, where does it end, whether to make this legal or not. I mean that's what I'm asking. If the situation was complicated like that I mean, it was your own daughter, or your own mate, I mean, could you say?

Luke: Once they hit elementary school, it's too late to abort.

Vivian: Yeah, I think so too.

Daisy: Yeah, definitely. I don't know, I mean that's a tough, you know, I mean, that's basically the scientific evidence that most pro-lifers are arguing with with pro-choicers. And you know, I just, the scientific information, for me it's more of uh, a spiritual thing. I think that it is wrong to just use abortion as contraception which we've all said. But I do believe that it is a connection that, that connection makes life, our connection with each other, our relationships with each other, and my future relationship with my child when I have a child I know I'm pregnant and when I accept that and I'm already loving that child and bringing it into life, that's when the connection for me would be. And I think most women feel that way.

Luke: And I think it's easy to talk about, talk about, you know, when you're in a vacuum and saying, this is the right thing, and I'm morally like this, and I believe in this thing. But, uh, yeah, unless you have experienced all the emotions that come with it. And the actual going through with it. Who knows what you're gonna do? (Daisy: Exactly) I mean, you don't know what you think. It's easy to like take this hypothetical situation, (Daisy: Sure) and say, well you know, after thinking through it and stuff, and go through all this pedantic sort of B.S. But I mean yeah, doing it is, actually where you're gonna find your answer and being put in that situation you can't rationalize that.

Bow: Well, that's why it is, what it is today. Everything's messed up, because everybody, not everybody has gone through it. So we have these opinions which we think this could be a basic foundation but people will still from now until the end of time they will still um, keep talking about this, (Daisy: Sure) and keep going through the same situations over and over again. You just keep your opinions, you know, like what you think and you try to do but you hope of course a situation like that would not happen. But if it does arise then you try to deal with it as it comes.

Daisy: Sure, that's fine. These people in the government (Luke: Speaking on your behalf of course) are going to make decisions about my future and my body, and I wanna have a say in that. I'm not impressed when conservative Rush Limbaugh or whoever else it happens to be in government at the time. Would stand up there and tell me what rights I have as a woman, and what I can do with my body, I'm offended.

Bow: But there are also republican or conservative women in congress who're voting for these laws too.

Daisy: Yes, there are. But they have a right to talk about that. Because they are women, I accept that. But I don't, I, I, draw the line when I've got a bunch full of white male conservatives discussing my future and other women's future.

Vivian: Right. I agree with that, but I do believe, I'm sorry to go against all the females out there. But I do believe they do have a word in there, because, um, a very small word. I'm not saying a big word.

Luke: I think for a woman in a situation where it wasn't uh, a mutually mutual relationship this has happened, an experience to people I know. Um, not, not a close situation, all of a sudden a pregnancy came up unexpectedly the man was, I want no part of this, and the woman was like and don't sweat it, I don't want to make you a part of it. That's fine. If you're, if you're interested in pursuing it further than go ahead but, I'm choosing to go... go ahead with this anyway. And I think the guy eventually sort of just came around to the idea. He wanted to be a part of it... like she was gonna go through with it anyways. She was like I'll find a way, I\m really gonna do this, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna do it. And then she came, and then the guy was just sort of like uh, she's doing it without me. That's half my kid, man.

Bow: Actually, you know, I think that happens in a lot of cases, um, one partner makes the decision and it's like somebody is waiting for the other one to say, yes, we can do this. And then once you get that consensus, then you go ahead and then you find out what child rearing is, child bearing and child rearing and it turns out to be a very rewarding experience. Exactly. Thank you.

Luke: A rewarding experience.

Vivian: I just wanna touch on what that just reminded me of... was. What if the woman were to go ahead and consent to this and say that she wanted the baby and there was the male who didn't want anything to do with it. Doesn't he have something to say, when he says I don't want my child being born. What about that aspect of this story, no?

Bow, Daisy: No.

Vivian: No?

Luke: I don't think so, I don't think I'd feel in a place that I've ever tell a woman, you have to take that child's life, if she felt, she felt, if she felt that she was good enough to do it and she was up for the job, no one else would be more qualified than her.

Vivian: OK. Let's wrap up with maybe a comment from each of us. How do you feel over all and maybe then, some thoughts?

Bow: Um, I think Daisy brought up a really pertinent point which was, which can kind of almost sum up everything which is that education is the key point. (Vivian: Definitely) And, uh, educate people, and let them know what's going on as much as you can, put more money into the schools for that purpose and uh...

Vivian: And the parents should get involved, too. It's not just schools, (Luke: Talk to your kids, to your kids) don't make it just the schools' or governments' responsibility.

Daisy: Hopefully, you know, if we are able to do that, if we are talking to our children, and we are teaching them in schools, getting them as much information as possible, and trusting their judgment, maybe they won't even get to the situation where they'll have to think about abortion. But, you know, we've got to do something.

Vivian: And sadly enough if you were put in that situation, this is my personal opinion, but I think each situation is different regardless if it's pregnancy, or violence, or what not. You have to kind of take it for each circumstance (Daisy: Right) on its own. We can't just judge everything.

Daisy: There is no black and white.

将原音分拆四个语音：
播放原音0开始先打一个标记，一边听语音，一边看文本，采用鼠标沿着语音文本轻轻移动阅读，眼睛跟上语音速度，开头复制点黑一段句子，学习一段或者句子、短句子，用shift间点黑文本的方法跟踪语音的长度，到14，28，43的位置前，关注文本对话段，确定语音分段位置，将一个1小时语音分4个语音标记，标记语音的时候，尽量使得语音、文本在一人对话结束的位置。
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    注意：分解语音和看文本锻炼眼睛跟随文本位置的整个语音看文本、听语音、整理文本有机结合在一起。

1. Abortion and Sexual Education的前15分钟4秒语音对应的文本


SIDE A


Ok, today we're talking about
a real sensitive issue.
It's abortion and
of course sexual education,
it all kinds of,
you know,
combines into each other.


Vivian:

This is Viv.

Daisy:
Yeap! This is Daisy.
Yes, a very heated topic.
I don't know
what do you think.
Bow.

Bow:
This is Bow!
It's short for Bow Seaffas.
Anyway,
I think this is a hot topic
all over the world.
So let's dig our heels
in and get going.

Luke:
Yeah,
the life-giving force that
we all have inside of us,
that procreative impulse,
that just seems to
keep on going
like a spark that
can never be snuffed out.
Let's rap gang.

Vivian:
Hello everyone welcome
and uh
let's introduce ourselves.

Luke:
How are you doing?
This is Luke!

Bow:
And I am Bow!

Daisy:
And I am Daisy!

Vivian:
And this is Viv!

Vivian:
Today's topic is sexual education.
Let's start off by saying,
hey,
where did you guys start off?
I mean,
how'd you get your sexual education?

Daisy:
Well, urn, well,
actually I was kind of brought up
in a very strict Catholic family
and my mother was very reluctant
to tell me about anything.
Actually,
my funny story,
my sister asked me to go
to the store and
buy her some tampons.
And I had never heard this word before,
didn't even know what they were.
So I went to the shop
and I asked the guy for some tampons,
and he gave them to me.
Looking at these tiny little,
cotton things and thinking,
what the hell are these?
I had no idea.
So I gave them to my sister
and asked her what they were.
And she said,
"Ask mom."
And then I, urn,
asked my mother
and she wouldn't tell me for like two months.
I kept hounding her,
so she gave me this book that
was like published in the sixties.
And it still have pictures of women
that use to wear those sanitary belts
that they attached sanitary napkins,
too. And I couldn't understand any of the words,
I didn't even know
what a penis or a vagina was.

Vivian:
Oh! Daisy.
This is brutal!

Daisy:
And I was pronouncing the word,
as "Penis,"
and "Vagina."
And my cousin came to visit me,
he was like talking about sex.
And I said "I know what sex is."
And he said,
"No, you don't.
What is it?"
And I said,
"well, it's when a man puts his penis
in the women's vagina."

Vivian:
Can I ask
how old you were
when you in first like.

Daisy:
When I got this?
I was probably 10 or 11 I guess.
(Vivian: Really?)

Vivian:
What about
school education?

Bow:
Urn. There was an attempt
at educating students
when I was,
I guess,
in grade four or five.
I must have been just pre-pubescent at that time.
(Vivian: Right)
12, Thereabouts, 11 or 12.
They would take all the boys
and shuttle them into another room
and they would leave all the other girls
in the classroom that they were in.
And then the gym instructor
would take us all and explain
basic things very nervously.
He was a gym instructor.
He was about physical education.
He was,
part of his job description
was not teaching
a bunch of horny pre-pubescent boys
about sex.
But, um,
because the curriculum had changed,
he sort of got stuck with the job.
And I mean it's,
it's kind of stupid.
I mean it should,
it has to be done.
But the thing is by that time,
a lot of kids really do know
quite a bit about sex.
Just because
they have older brothers
or sisters
who sort of fill them in or stuff,
um,
or their friends
do and they've learned stuff from their friends
in a lot of cases.
So I kind of knew a lot of stuff,
but it still was good to have that
. I think because it sort of,
am,
solidified a lot of things,
just so that
you wouldn't be embarrassed
if it ever came up like,
I know there's a lot of
tension for me,
because there were a lot of
spaces missing in the whole sex thing
that I wanted to get like,
you know,
get smart with eventually
before I actually
was gonna be with a girl.
I didn't wanna like just get there and be like "doh",
I've never learned that part,
you know.
So it is not necessary.
(Daisy: They told you that?)
No, I need not to study the general things,
you don't wanna go into it,
you know,
your big romantic first encounter
and end up looking like a spasm,
just because you,
you didn't want,
you know,
ask your buddy. What's that for?
How do you use that or whatever.

Vivian:
What about the parental aspects?
I mean,
did your parents ever like come in
and ask you
or tell you anything?

Luke:
My father would sometimes come up to me,
and ask me
if there was anything that
I wanted to know,
that I was curious about.
Is there any,
you know,
sort of things that you're,
you know,
you'll probably,
you know,
starting to become a man now?
Is there anything that you're curious about?
Wanna know about?
Of course for me,
I was just ' No, that's all right.
Dad, I'm fine.
And he said like,
All Right. Great,
see what's on TV.
That was good enough for us.

Vivian:
And then week,
he'd come back.

Luke:
Just make,
just let you know,
you know,
I'm here,
if you do wanna talk about this stuff,
if you don't,
that's probably,
you know,
just as good
if not better.
(Daisy: That's great.)

Bow:
He was available for that.

Vivian:
How about you Bow?

Bow:
Um,
my sexual education was a little bit warped.
I think it,
kind of all most make me uh,
deviant almost because of it.
Because it was kind of in uh,
little,
clips of things.
So like I guess,
Luke was saying it was for..,
fourth grade or fifth grade.
You start to think about it
when it happens and..
. There are some,
you know,
promiscuous people in that grade too.
Sure they are.
There was,
this couple they were supposedly going out
and there's rumor that they had,
had sex.
So then,
everyone in that grade was like really interested
in what happened,
what happened.
And they said,
well they did it.
And then they both got sick.
So,
we thought that,
that's like what happen
after you do it,
you know,
too early or something you get sick.
But then like the second part of it was after that,
I actually,
caught my parents doing it.
It just like walked into the room
and I thought like my dad
was hurting my mother.
So I said
"Dad, you're hurting mom."
And he said,
"No, just go back to bed. We're OK!"
And then where it gets worse is because
I went to a Catholic school.
They kind of masked sex education as health,
in health class.
You take health.
But you're taught sex education by
a really big and fat
ninety-year-old nun
who says
if anybody laughs,
I'm gonna whack you on the back of your head.
People laughed
and I laughed
and then she said like
this is the penis and this is the vagina...
Boom!
you got whacked in the back of your head.
So now I like uh,
when I have relations I feel like I'm gonna get whacked
in the back of my head in a minute.

Daisy:
Which you do anyway!

Bow:
Turns me on.

Luke:
It still true that
I feel if you laugh during any sort of sexual stuff,
you usually get a slap in a face.

Vivian:
Are we talking
from experience here, right?

Luke:
Oh, yes, sure.
I haven't had sex, yet.

Bow:
Oh yeah sure.
So, but I'm think uh,
nowadays,
like I sound like a real dad like:
"When I was back in school,"
but, it's true like I think
people are more aware of it,
at least in North America,
and they're making it a priority their kins take this sexed.
As a whole class not as
under the guise
of health class.

Vivian:
Right. I think in the past ten,
maybe 15 years,
especially in the American school system
with the addition of sex education.
It may not necessarily be a class
you can select it as an elective
when you enter high school.
But usually you
get this class
during the end of your elementary
or beginning of your junior high years,
you get a couple of classes
with the health teacher or the nurse.
And they teach you,
you know,
all the basic functions
of the body including,
you know,
all the sexual parts,
and that has changed the educational system a lot.
As matter of fact,
there's lots of parents
who are totally against
having sexed in school.
They don't like the fact of the school teaching
it and so
usually you get parental permission
before your child
can enter that class.

Daisy:
Well, when I'm,
I was in elementary school,
um, I went to a Catholic school.
And they didn't teach it
in the school
but what they did
to satisfy the parents
who wanted the education
was have all the kids
go to the local church
after school.
And sit down
while the priest
and the nun gave us sex education.
Which is ironic.

Vivian:
That sounds similar
to Bow's situation.

Luke:
That's why that,
you know.
Catholic school girls
have such a bad reputation cause
they do just the opposite
of what they are not supposed to do.

Vivian:
Exactly.

Daisy:
But, um, basically,
just the biological functions they taught us,
you know,
woman menstruate.
And this is
what happens a
nd then when I went to high school
I had a class like that it was called health.
They were very liberal they taught us about
contraception,
sexual diseases,
everything from drugs,
tobacco,
alcohol,
all those things that
you know
I guess kids are tempted by.
And I thought it was good.
Actually,
I found the class very interesting
because I never had that education
in elementary school,
and I know more
I think about those things
like sexual diseases
than any of my friends do
because I remember that.
I think it's really important to teach kids that,
and give them that
sexual education.

Bow:
The thing that's um,
strange are the statistics like today,
because you know,
say from the forties
for example to the sixties,
or late fifties even though sex education it
was kind of weird talk about it
and it was really scientific and stuff,
but there was less teenage pregnancy then,
than there is now
when they're really adamant about teaching these things
in school.
So like is it just that the kids are not listening
or do they think they no
more than more people?
I don't know.

Luke:
I think it's that,
I think the reason that parents
are against it is
because they think that t
heir children are becoming educated
about the wrong things at too early an age,
but the truth is that kids are growing up they're,
they're maturing a lot faster.
(Daisy: Right.
Much more promiscuous
than they used to be.)
Not necessarily pre-mascuous,
but I mean that they come of,
they sort of come of age
a little earlier and they,
urn, they go through these changes a little earlier
and the thing is they are going to get,
they are gonna get educated,
they are gonna learn about sex,
they're gonna be curious about it,
from a young age.
It's probably better that
like they learn about it
on TVs
and movies
and music,
and on the Internet.
But they don't have that sort of,
urn, educational aspect,
and sort of like what you should do,
maybe and what you shouldn't do.
That's why sex education
it's not like they're gonna,
just go through life,
not even hearing about sex,
not wondering about it
or curious about it,
if they don't get sex education.
But the sex education is good in that,
it sort of says now just be smarter about it,
you know,
like put this on or use this or like maybe,
maybe it's better to wait.
You got to think of your options and
if they won't get that out of a school setting,
they just get sex is dirty,
it's kinda interesting.
They're just curious about it
and they want to learn about it.

Vivian:
For me, you know,
my parents never sat me down,
even to these day,
we've never talked about that topic.
I mean,
we never had that birds
and the bees little talk that everyone get.
So my first contact
with that kind of information
was in elementary school,
just like Luke said,
we had the little class
where the school nurse actually took you aside,
and separated you and told you about
the anatomy.
Perhaps the girls could,
you know,
run into their menstrual cycle
any time soon now.
You should go talk to parents.
And they gave us
this little sample of the sanitary napkins.
So when I first ran into my little accident,
you know,
I had that little sample that
the teacher gave me and
so 'Thank God!'
You know,
cause my mom
and I never talked about that.
And then my second encounter with
that sort of information
was in junior high,
when we had the health class that
Daisy was talking about.
We had the health class where we talked about
all sorts of things starting with drugs
and going down to,
you know, the aca-, uh,
anatomy and sex and what not,
and I think when you're younger,
because children talk, uh,
she went out with so and
so and they did this and that,
of course, you know, t
he movies
and videos all sorts of information that you get on TV.
There's a lot of things
that aren't factual
but you know
lots of rumor things
that you think
may be true
and sexual education kind of reinforces
what you know,
and what may not be factual
and a lot of myths get cleared out of the way,
you know, about STDs,
and AIDS and drugs and
getting this disease and
that of course pregnancy
and what not.

Bow:
Urn, yeah, O.K. But,
I think, uh,
one of the things that you're saying is that
you're unfortunate to not have the talk with your parents,
like everybody does,
I don't think many people do get
that talk actually.
I think it's very rare that people do
and I think like the movie
"American Pie,"
that's why it was so funny
with the father
"Eugene Levvy"
like "Son here's a couple of magazines for you."
Everybody could relate to that,
because that's what parents do.
I think it's just kind of weird to talk to your kids about
and they try to do it,
cause they think it's their duty,
but it doesn't really help.
I don't think so.

Daisy:
I think it's just probably;
it's a really awkward thing.
Because you know
a mother-daughter or father-son relationship is,
you know,
extremely sensitive
where that area is concerned.
A mother doesn't
or father doesn't want his daughter to be,
you know,
even having sexual feelings.
So I think it's very difficult for them,
but that's why I think, urn,
because they're families like that,
that do have difficulties discussing those things,
that it is absolutely,
urn, of the utmost importance,
that education be in schools,
compulsory.
The government should make that the law
whether parents don't like it
or not especially in this day and age.
I don't care what country you're in,
even if you're in Korea,
and they say there's no AIDS which is just
, just misinformation,
you know,
there are,
other sexual diseases out there,
that can stay with you for life,
and you know,
that might not be life threatening
but they are not certainly not comfortable,
and you know,
there's AIDS,
there's... Oh,
there're so many different things.
(Vivian: STDs, sure)
You know,
other than pregnancy
to worry about
(Luke: Psychological things)
Sure.

分拆语音

2. Abortion and Sexual Education  A2 的15分到29分6秒语音对应的文本



Vivian:
I definitely agree with Daisy,
there.
That's definitely true
and then also it doesn't just rely on the government
or the schools.
People always say,
hey, it starts with the home
and it really does,
and for example,
I mean,
if you were to put yourself in those same shoes,
if I had a daughter or a son,
I mean,
I eventually know
I have to talk to them,
sure, this is the position that
many parents are put in is.
I need eventually talk to
my child about
something like this
but "Are they there yet",
so it's kind of like,
kind of,
you know,
test you out,
maybe test out the waters
by coming out and saying...
"So, is there any thing you wanna talk about?"
kind of like in Luke's situation.
But then of course the kids
in the same situation were there,
it's an awkward topic for them,
too. And so they're not gonna say,
yeah. Dad actually I wanna know about this.
So they just keep avoiding the topic.
So you never end up talking about it
even though your child maybe 16, 18, 20.
You never want to admit to yourself.
Oh, my child is sexually active
or is going to be,
and so you never wanna really go
in and you know.
Yes, Bow.

Bow: Um, yeah,
that’s exactly right.
That's how I felt
when I first had my daughter,
and I thought "oh" I'm just gonna be
a strict dad
and she's never gonna have sex,
she's not gonna be with boys
and all this stuffs.
And then I met, uh,
another father,
who has a similar situation.
We called him a Cooter.
Cooter's opinion was that,
that's so stupid.
I mean she's just gonna rebel against
you even more,
she gonna become like a prostitute,
she's gonna do it for money,
you know
it's just a natural res..,
res.., natural thing,
you know.
That's what people do.

Vivian:
God forbid your daughter does
that ten years from now.

Bow:
Yeah, ok.
But um,
anyway
I kind of realized,
you're exactly right,
and I can't do that,
I can't like,
you know
lock her up,
and put a chastity belt on her,
or get the chastity rings...
I just have to
kind of try to raise her,
naturally in hope like
she'll be smart enough
to make her own decisions.
(Daisy: Hope that
she has good judgment)

Vivian:
I definitely think that
the more informed you are,
the smarter you are,
think about it,
when you look at
two 18-year-olds,
for example,
and you have one
that is very much educated
and aware of her surroundings,
and current events
and what not.
One that is not
so much aware of everything
and informed.
When you see the ignorance
and the naivete
of one child versus the other,
you know,
that person
that has more knowledge,
you know,
yeah they're,
they know
what's going on,
but then also they're gonna be,
more aware
of the bad things
and they are gonna be smart about
their choices
and decisions versus the ones
that are not so aware and
so out of curiosity
and ignorance
she's gonna go in there
and most likely be
in a lot more dangerous situations.

Luke:
I think all kids respond to,
uh, to just frankness
and openness.
And it's really hard to do
with a topic like that,
but I find that like coddling kids
and just going like
goo-goo ga-ga
and stuff often
they're just like,
OK,
someone's making
stupid voices to me.
That's not how they really talk
when they're among themselves,
so I think they'd really respond to,
to a subject like that
which is very sensitive
if you can just show
them you're comfortable
talking about it like
at an early age
even if you are not.
If you can just sort of
I don't know
be open about that stuff,
be available to talk about
those sort of things.
I think it
wouldn't be such,
such a hard thing
to talk about
because it really is a natural thing,
you know it's such an obvious thing
and it's just all this other sort of
social conditions
that make it sort of
dodge to talk about,
you know.

Vivian:
And who here at the age
of 15 or 16,
didn't think that
they were mature enough
or adult enough to
hear something like this,
when your parents do
talk to you like that
you're "Yeah, whatever",
and then it just makes
you revolt against them more,
when they speak to you
at such a level,
you know,
when they
if your parents had actually talking you
at the age of 15 and
sat you aside and sai.
"Hey, you're an adult now,
you're mature enough
to listen to this.
Hey, let's just talk to each other
like adults.
This is how it is,
and if you're gonna get involved
or I would prefer that you don't
let me know
this is how it goes.
If they are very frank with you,
I mean,
I honestly think that,
yeah, I would probably respond,
not only with that,
you know,
the whole sexual aspects
but with many other aspects as well,
at a much more mature level.
And probably grown up a little bit.

Bow:
You're saying that
if your parents were frank with you then
(Vivian: Yeah, I'm just)
I disagree with that.
(Vivian: You do why?)
Because I think the point
that you made
that teenagers,
urn, do think that they are mature
because of that reason
they don't wanna listen to anybody.
And I think you don't realize that
until you become an adult,
and I think
if you're frank with them,
yeah, they could be
"yeah, whatever,
whatever, whatever."

Daisy:
Yeah,
but it depends on the attitude that
you have towards them,
I mean
if you're treating your children like
a baby the entire time,
I mean that,
(Luke: And suddenly come up
and say, OK,
let's talk about t
he birds and bees.)
Exactly.

Luke:
I mean you have to open
with them even from a young age
like just sort of let them know like
"this is what makes girls girls,
this is makes boys boys,"
and like start
at the really basic stuff like that,
I mean.

Vivian:
Cause the entire
raising the child experience
is an educational thing
from very the beginning
it leads gradually,
and slowly,
and eventually
toward the sex education thing
as well.

Bow:
OK thanks.
I'll remember that.

Daisy:
Well, you know,
I just think that
we're so way
beyond on this discussion
I don't think
it's even about
how we approach it with out
kids any more.
I think it should be
forced down their throats.
I think whether the government
has to do that,
the school has to do that,
or the parents,
it should be made
some law that
makes it compulsory.
Because I am not,
I don't want my child,
if, even if she can't
talk to me
even if I have a great relationship
with my child,
if he or she
can't talk to me,
I wanna know
she's getting
that information somewhere else.
(Vivian: Right)
Because it's just way
to dangerous.
You take Korea,
for an example,
you know,
here's a country that
has basically,
my niece,
I asked
what she gets in school.
And they're still just
giving them the biological processes,
you menstruate,
the penis is inserted
into the vagina
and so on,
and so on,
so on.
And she really knows
nothing about
how to protect herself from pregnancy.
She doesn't know
anything about
sexual diseases.
She still thinks,
and so does the rest of Korea,
which just makes me
insanely angry,
that you can get AIDS
by drinking out of the same
cup as someone,
you know,
I mean,
it's just misinformation,
and the thing,
this is a country
that has nightclubs
that have professional,
you know,
dm,
hookers working there.
And it's not just Korea.
It's the rest of Asia
as well,
and urn,
it's ok to
have hookers
working in nightclubs as,
you know,
girls that peel your fruit or
pour your drink.
But it's not ok
to teach the rest
of the country
that you need to wear a condom
that you need to
protect yourself,
that there's AIDS,
there's other sexual diseases out there.

Luke:
What are the names
of those night clubs?

Vivian:
Anyways,
I do have to agree
with Daisy on one point
is the actual amount of education
you are getting
and at what age, too.
As I was saying before,
I learned about
the anatomy
in elementary school.
But then like said especially
when you are at that age
you're very sensitive
and you hear a lot of information
and that's not actually factual,
a lot of it is,
just a lot of gossip
that kids pass around.
Hey, if you do this,
you get this.
This happens to you
such and such.
Literally,
ninety percent of it
is all false,
I mean,
its false information
and you should be informed
with factual information
whether it’s from school,
or homes
or whatever.
And even to this day,
even from adults
that I speak to,
my friends.
There's a lot of people
that are totally misinformed about
certain things,
I mean,
they may know it
up to a certain point,
but then that they don't know the,
the rest of it.
You know,
I mean I'm talking about
30-year-old adults
who don't know the,
the entire picture,
you know,
and I mean,
when these children
are going up to junior high
and they know basically the,
the little skeleton,
but they don't know
the meaty part of it,
and then they hear
all these rumors.
Even though,
you think you're supposed to know
you're not so sure,
and when you hear these rumors.
Oh, that must be true,
I mean,
if they get factual information
instead of being misinformed
by their peers,
wouldn't that change
a lot of things.

Luke:
Sure.
I was growing up,
uh,
a lot of,
uh,
people
that I knew
who were starting to
experiment with sex
under the understanding
that you couldn't get pregnant
the first time.
And you couldn't get pregnant
if you did it in a certain position,
if the girl was on top
or something.
So that was sort of a form
of birth control,
you know.
I wonder
how many people
got themselves
in a lot of trouble.
It's the first time.
Forget about it.

Bow:
Girls believe that.
You win there.

Vivian:
I have a totally prime example;
this is just something recent
that I had recently read.
I heard that in Korea
a form of,
I think,
I don't know,
if it was Korea
or America whatever,
but maybe twenty years ago,
a form of birth control
was pulling out
before the male ejaculated.
(Luke: It helps.)
It helps,
yeah,
but
that is not 100 percent.
That is not
(Daisy: Coitus interrupt us)
contraception.
That is totally not,
you know,
and I was trying to explain,
no actually.
You know,
it leaks out a little bit,
and then also even,
and that's totally
not contraception.
And then the second fact
which wasn't a fact was,
um,
there were many women
that were confused as to
when you're menstruating
if you
have intercourse,
you couldn't get pregnant,
or when you're menstruating
that was the time
when you do get,
you know,
pregnant,
which was true.
And so they were confused as to
which was actually true.
And so that
is very dangerous information
to have,
if you are on the wrong
side of.

Daisy:
Well,
that's the rhythm method,
and that's what the Catholic Church
tried to get everybody
to use it
and that's why Catholic parents
have so many children.
(Luke: That's why it's the main religion
in Christianity.)

Vivian:
If you're to go to a doctor,
ask him
if this is true or not,
he probably would laugh
in your face,
because,
first of all,
this is not a way to,
you know,
protect yourself,
and perhaps
if you don't wanna conceive children
that is not the way
to go about things.
And second,
it isn't true,
you know,
I mean
that is totally false information.

Luke:
But it's hard,
if people don't,
if kids don't
have anywhere to go to other
than friends'
who also don't know the score,
and if parents aren't really
forthcoming with that
kind of information
and they don't get it
in the schools,
like where are they gonna get it.

Daisy:
That's why,
you know,
I urge,
you know parents
to go and
join their PTA
to write their local member
to get their governments
to do something
to make it compulsory
in schools.

Bow:
I think it is actually
in the States
(Luke: It is.)
(Vivian: In America)
the problem is,
with that is,
even though
like anything else,
US history is compulsory,
but you gotta,
a lot of kids
in the poor neighborhoods
don't go to school.
(Daisy: Right)
So they are not showing up
for the class,
you know.

Daisy:
Well that's why
I think that
there needs to be
some type of standard in,
you know,
in sex education in schools,
and as Bow said,
you know,
of course there are the
poor kids,
you know,
in poor neighborhood that
aren't getting that education.
But there are you know,
I, I, the government
even in the states,
is trying to do things about
that I mean,
they've got welfare offices set up
and people that go out,
they talk to women
who are single mothers
having children
and give them information
about,
you know,
how to protect themselves
both from sexual disease,
and pregnancy.
And I think it has to be
a national effort
in any country
that you live in.
If you have children
and you're not involved,
then you're not doing enough.
You have to go,
you have to write
to your local member.
You have to go to
the village meeting,
discuss these things
they're important.
And if you're not involved,
then
if your child
does get pregnant
then you are responsible
for that.

Vivian:
And I think this eventually
leads to another question
that is actually
a very hot issue,
especially
in the western countries these days.
I mean,
what if
all of this sexual education,
it didn't work out
in the end. Hey,
what if, uh,
it just didn't work out the way
you wanted it for,
your daughter
or son?
What if they did
get pregnant
or what if they got
someone else pregnant,
they'd been a situation
where what?
They may be students
and they couldn't finish their education
or they'd be force to
have home education.
There is a lot of situations
going on out there.
And of course even as
a young adult
or an elder adult,
you may get pregnant
and that is not the situation
that you had
planned on.
There are some options
out there for you
and they're difficult options,
and we can discuss
some of the options
first, and see
how we all feel about this,
um,
obviously the topic
is adopt..,
um,
I'm sorry,
adoption?
Ok.
Those are one of the choices,
yeah, that's one of the choices,
but abortion.
It is a really hot steamy issue,
lots of people get very urn,
sensitive about this one,
so let's start off
by saying like
where we kind of stand.
Are you pro?
Or
Are you against abortion?
Are you for abortion?
And second
let's talk about
the choices
that are involved
with that.
You wanna start up Bow?
Are you
(Bow: Me?)
Luke?

Bow:
Um,
I think that.

Vivian:
What side are you on first?

Bow:
I don't choose either side,
I'm neither pro-choice
nor pro-life.
But I do, I
believe that,
um,
there shouldn't be
an abortion
if people are,
can be responsible,
if they have the ability
to be responsible,
but they're just choosing
not to be because
oh,
it's gonna be so hard on me.
I don't agree with that.
I agree in extreme situations
where depending on
how that child
is gonna be raised,
if the child is gonna
grow up to be,
you know,
raised in a terrible
environment
then maybe the best choice
would be to,
you know,
go ahead
for the abortion.
Um,
if it had to do
with a mother's health,
um,
basically yes.

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3. Abortion and Sexual EducationB1 的29分6秒到43分38.36秒的语音文本



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SIDE B
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Vivian:
OK. Let's,
let's get back to
that in a little,
in a minute here.
We can talk about
the details.
OK, Daisy.
Do you wanna tell us
where you stand?

Daisy:
OK. Well,
actually
I just wanna to ask
Bow a question.
Um, I just wanna to ask him
if you do have like
obviously
I understand
what you're saying
and probably
pretty much most peoples' views
are the same,
but how could you make a law
to make a standard
for that type of thing,
how could you say:
it's ok for this person to
have an abortion
but it's not ok for a woman
in her thirties
who's not married,
but has the financial
ability to have a child?

Vivian:
There's a wide grey area.

Bow:
Yeah,
I don't know,
it's, I don't,
I'm not a law maker,
I don't know that
is still uh,
just, uh,
just my opinion.
That's what I think,
(Vivian: Exactly)
and I,
it should be talked about more.
People that do make laws
and people that
do make theirs,
you know,
who have these problems
and these situations come up,
and we should be talked about.

Luke:
But you're basically
pro-choice,
but you don't think
you don't feel that,
that it should be used as a form
of birth-control for example.
(Vivian: It shouldn't be abused.)

Bow:
If you have to label it,
but I think,
you know within
the label of pro- choice
or extreme pro-choice people,
and there are extreme pro-life.
But I'm more you know,
in the middle of both of those.

Luke:
Of course,
I would say the same.
I would say
that I'm definitely pro- choice,
but I think that yeah,
abortion is not something
that you just,
you just,
sort of do for the heck of it.
But I don't think,
I don't think that's any human,
in a person's nature,
I mean,
if someone's gonna,
gonna have a child,
a woman is,
obviously,
is gonna have the child,
there's gonna be some
kind of attachment to,
and some kind of like
psychological factor there.
That doesn't make it
an easy decision
in any,
in any situation.
I think
if it's a repeated thing,
if it's, it happens continually,
there's a obviously problem there
and I don't know,
it's hard to regulate that
(Bow: Yeah)
but I also,
I don't think that someone
who's definitely not ready,
and not interested
in raising a child
and isn't gonna give a 100%,
or isn't just like,
mentally
and emotionally prepared
for that,
for that to happen.
I don't know
if it's if it's a wise move
and if there not,
if they're not fully committed to it.
That's the first sign that it's,
uh, no,
shouldn't do it,
shouldn't be done,
shouldn't happen,
do the abortion,
give the child,
like a fair shot
a having a real life
kind of thing.

Vivian:
So both you guys are
kind of in the pro-choice section
but not very,
you know,
(Daisy: Pro-life)
right.

Bow:
I don't think
for the extreme pro-choice people
who say like, uh,
it's gonna ruin my caree
r and this kind of thing,
if that person has confidence
in themselves,
and I believe that
they could rise above that,
they could take care of a child,
and then,
I think once that
they started to
raise the child
and they could,
people do it all the time,
they have careers
and they raise children,
they become successful.
And the children go to college
and they become successful,
and become a great member of society.
But did you say
like to look ahead into the future
and say no,
this is just gonna ruin everything for me,
so, I'm just gonna,
you know,
cut this embryo out,
and it's nothing,
it doesn't mean anything,
but I believe that the,
um, pro-, extreme pro-choicers say that
it's not a life yet and,
but I don't believe,
I believe it is a life,
it's not a human yet.
But it is, it is life,
like every cell in your body's life,
plants are life,
you know.
So that's my opinion.
(Luke: Yeah)

Vivian:
OK, Daisy.
Where do you stand?
Do you have
a firm stand on either way?

Daisy:
Well,
I'm definitely pro-choice.
I believe that abortion
should be,
should be legal.
But for different reasons.
Not because
I don't believe that
a fetus is,
urn, not a baby yet.
I believe
exactly the same thing
that Brandan does,
not because I believe that
a fetus is not
a baby at that point,
I do believe it is a baby.
Probably very soon
after conception.
Um,
I'm in agreement with Bow,
there.
But, I,
I believe it
is a necessary evil
of our society
and that what we were discussing
before sex education.
We've been negligent
and, um,
therefore many women
are falling pregnant
and don't have an option
of course there are these women that
are career women
and saying that
it won't fit in my life.
But
if that woman is so selfish
at that point.
I would rather,
there are so many children
that are neglected,
in our societies today,
I'd rather she get rid of it
than have it,
because,
rather than seeing another child
being brought up in a, uh,
a selfish home
(Vivian: Right)
with a selfish mother.
But I do feel that
if we go back to the 1950s
where women
were having backyard abortions,
sticking coat hangers up themselves and
damaging themselves
for life
so they couldn't
have another child
or women that
are raped
by their family,
or strangers on the street
and have to hate that
child for their entire life.
I don't think that's fair.
I think the law should be there
to protect women,
and I think it's a total
feminist issue.
And I'm enraged
when I hear men
in government talk about it.

Vivian:
Well, there's a lot of details about
each side,
you know,
for example,
I could just bring up the fact,
um,
lots of people
like for women,
lots of people think
it's the women's choice,
it is her body.
No,
I could always say.
OK, but there are
so many people
that wanna adopt children
but can't have children.
Why couldn't this person
instead of get, um,
having the child
or you know,
and keeping it,
why don't they have it
wait the 8 months
or 10 months,
have the child
and give it up
for adoption to the couples
who really,
really want a child.
But then,
that person can also argue,
hey, that 8 to 10 months
that's a whole year out of my life
that's changing my body
and that really does change my life
in a sense.
And so maybe
I don't wanna partake
in something like that.
And so that could be
an argument there,
and then here's another argument,
a lot of people say
(Bow: One at a time,
one at a time)
sure, ok,
but this is,
this kinda goes along with that.
What if the woman doesn't want that
and the man,
there is always a man involved,
I mean,
we always say
it's the woman's body but,
is it the man's choices as well?
And what if he does want
the child,
and the woman doesn't.
Let's attack this one.

Daisy:
OK. I believe that
if it's a man and a woman
that are involved
in a mutual loving relationship
and they're living together
and they have the means to
have that child?
I believe in that case
that the man has a fifty percent ' say.'
Um, if it was a casual one night affair,
I don't think he has a choice,
he was simply sleeping
with the woman
and they were mutually using each other
if they,
if you like,
I don't think
he has any say in...
that woman b
ecause she had a one-night stand with him
for nine months
she has to bear his child.
That's absurd.
(Vivian: But you guys)

Luke:
But what if he's saying
he wants to support it
and he's willing to go through with it?
It's up to the woman and to,
to consider.
(Daisy: Yeah, it is up to her.)
But the man actually
if he is a full a full,
uh,
like a full partner
in the relationship
has exactly 50%?
(Daisy: I think that he
does have same)
even though it is the woman's body 50%,
exactly that?
(Vivian: 50%?
Would you like it to be 40?)
(Vivian: I don't know...)

Luke:
What would you do?
If it was 50%
you couldn't really dc)
anything?

Daisy:
You have to take it to the court,
in a court of the law.
(Bow: What should the law be?)
What should the law be?
(Bow: Yeah.)
Well, i guess that they have to take.
(Bow: What do you think?)
What do I think?
I guess every situation's gonna be different
I mean that's the thing,
I mean,
if the woman could possibly lose her entire career.
Say she's in a country
like Korea
where you know,
I mean,
some women are
discriminated against
if they're married
and have children
in the work place.
Um,
if it's going to discriminate against her career
and she's got,
she's got a great future
ahead of her,
then, you know,
I think we should be more
thinking about the woman.
If it's,
if it's likely that
she can have more children
in the future.

Luke:
I'm surprised you gave
the man 50%,
that's why I said it.

Luke:
That's very generous.

Vivian:
I also take into
consideration that
we're kind of thinking
more along the western side,
I don't know
about Europe
or up other countries,
but in America
a woman has six months maternal leave.
So you know,
before she even shows
she can take off and
come back after she's had the baby.
In Korea,
apparently,
you don't have maternal leave,
you only I mean,
you can only leave for one month,
I'm not even sure,
but you certainly
don't have six months.

Daisy:
Two months.

Vivian:
Two Months.
Anyways but,
either way,
I mean,
the situation is totally different that
would put you
(Daisy: Right)
totally put you back
if you were in a different country.

Daisy:
It would,
and I think that's something
to take into consideration,
but even in our country,
I mean
even though
it's more accepted
and there's a lot of people that,
that generally
do support
pro-choice.
You've gotta consider religion.
There are so many religious factions.
In every country,
and me I grow up in a
Catholic family.
If my father heard me talk like this,
he'd probably have a cow,
but
these are my choices,
but I'm not making my,
my choice on,
you know,
a scientific fact or,
or even a religious
or emotional fact.
I see it
as a necessity
in our society.
And I do believe
it's a feminist issue.

Luke:
Well. That's the idea here too.
It's kind of in Korea
or in Asia it's a catch 22,
because
according to society
you know you're not supposed to,
you're not supposed to fornicate.
But people do,
because it's a natural
they wanna have sex,
some you know,
some accidents happen,
and they have a baby.
But then they make abortion illegal.
And you're not,
and if you're pregnant
out of wedlock,
then you're look down on in society.
So, what are you supposed to do
really in that case?
(Vivian: Exactly)

Bow:
They set up things here,
in these Confucian societies,
(Vivian: Sure)
you have no choices really.

Daisy:
But,
I do think it's
become a little too common
as Luke was saying before,
there are some women out there that
are using this as a form
of contraception,
which is just
amoral
you know,
it's not acceptable.
And I think that
we need to kind of
get back to
educating people that
this is not ok and it's, not..
, apparently
I was told by a doctor
that it's not good
for a woman.
The more a woman
has an abortion,
the less chance
she has of falling pregnant again.

Vivian:
Right,
and having a healthy baby too,
and it causes pro,
problems for herself, too.

Daisy:
Yeah.
So I think
if we're gonna clamp down
as a society
on abortion.
Not saying it's
wrong
that women still have these choices,
but offer other al...
(Vivian: Alternatives)
alternatives
and opportunities for them.
OK. Say to the career woman.
Alright.
If you have this child
these are the benefits
that we can give you,
this is the help
we can give you and
finding the child a good home.
Um,
You know with adoption
and things like that.
Think about
if the government wants to,
you know,
move away from so many people
having abortion,
then offer other alternatives
and options.

Vivian:
The, the
options certainly
do have to be there,
but also there is the moral
aspect you know,
which if you're doing it
for contraceptive reasons
or because it was an accident
and you really weren't careful
or because you could have it,
but you couldn't. Anyways
but we have to make
that moral issue
much more
of a stronger point in society now
and also,
I mean,
if you're doing it just you could have the baby
but I just don't want to
and this was just an accident.
That should be like a public thing.
People would..,
it should be like a standard thing
that we think
that is not right,
you know,
I mean
you should only do this,
in the case of,
this is my personal opinion,
but if you were raped or,
in extreme circumstances,
if you're very young,
and it really was an accident,
and you have no other options
left to you,
I mean,
then I think that
should be an option for you.

Bow:
Um,
this is kind of getting
back to
what we were talking about,
or I was talking about
before with the titles of pro-choice
or pro-life.
But, um,
have you seen the movie?
What is it?
If Walls Could Speak,
it is all about abortion?
(Vivian: Yes, If walls could talk)
well, if walls could talk,
yes. And in Boston
, there's a lot of um,
abortion clinics,
and there's a lot of pro-lifers
who stand outside.
There was a guy that
close to my house,
an abortion clinic that
was close to my house
and a guy went in there
and killed one of the doctors.
He's under the title pro-life
which is kind of a contradiction because
he's taking a life
(Daisy: Exactly)
He trying to say,
but his excuse is that I'm trying to save
many lives by taking one,
But
how does that work?
you know,
I don't understand that.

Vivian:
It's like a vigilante kind of
instance,
and he is kind of
contradicting himself
but he's saying
I'll save
a majority versus one.
(Daisy: Right, so many babies)

Bow:
I know
what he's saying
but, I mean,
those women are gonna,
have gone through the decision.
The hard task
of making a decision to go there,
are not gonna stop there.

Daisy:
Right.
What is fascinating to me is,
that here,
there is so much talk.
People's protesting outside abortion clinics today.
But abortion has been around for centuries,
and it wasn't performed by a doctor,
it was,
basically,
you know,
you know,
you go to your local herb doctor
or witch doctor,
and you can,
an abortion can be performed
with simple herbs like ginger
and parsley.
And this has been going on
for centuries.
The African,
a lot of tribes in Africa,
they believe,
that it is solely
up to the woman
as the giver of life
and she is
the representation of god
and if she falls pregnant
then it is her decision
whether she brings
that life forth.
They believe
that if that life
is not wanted then
why should it be brought
into the world,
it should brought into the world
when it's loved.
And they've been using these herbs for,
for uh,
centuries,
to perform abortions,
so it's not a modern day issue.
It's not something,
you know,
in other cultures
it is accepted
within their religions.
So you know,
I, I've,
I kind of don't understand
why people are,
maybe because
it's just public now.
I don't get it.