Interview: University of California---Hing, Bill---Professor / Academic
>> as congress debates immigration legislation, the bush administration is cracking down on companies that hire illegal immigrants. last week, a 26-state raid on the american operations of amsterdam ifco systems found more than 1,100 undocumented immigrants and led to criminal charges against seven managers. for business, it raises a question of who should police worker legality. bill hing is a law professor at the university of california who specializes in immigration and joins me from our san francisco bureau. mr. hing, you’ve done some work in this area and you say one of the problems with having companies do it is the high cost of trying to figure out who is illegal and who is not.
>> absolutely. it’s very difficult for employers to determine the legality and ability for people to work because there’s an array of documents and some documents are false and some are valid and you need to be a super sleuth to be able to determine who’s got valid documents or not.
>> from the government’s case against ifco―and i know you’re not an expert on this particular case―but 1100 illegals and seven managers charged, it does sound like some companies are hiring a lot of illegals and perhaps know it.
>> absolutely, that’s true. we have a work force in the united states of about 146 million. and about 6.5 million of those workers are undocumented. it’s absolutely clear that some employers do know that their employee staff is undocumented.
>> why are they doing that? is it because they know they can get away with paying them less because the workers would be afraid to complain? is it because they don’t want to take the time to check credentials?
>> it’s a combination of things. i think the vast majority of employers are people of goodwill who need workers and most of the workers that we’re talking about that are undocumented are low-wage, low-skilled workers. and we have a work shortage in the united states of those workers. so i think it’s partly―large part necessity and some part the inability to determine legality and others who are willing to bend the rules.
>> is there a system congress could adopt that would bring business into the process, some way for businesses to at least initiate a procedure for determining whether a potential hire is legal or illegal?
>> well, i believe that what the president has proposed for two years, the guest worker program, is a big step towards that. i think that part of what needs to be done beyond guest worker force of 300 to 400,000 each year is a final step of allowing those individuals to become lawful permanent residents. but the reason why the proposal is one that would address the issue we’re talking about is because once we bring people from out of the shadows, there will be many, many fewer undocumenteds hired and therefore, you won’t need an expensive, alab rat―elaborate system of determining whether or not documents are valid or not because most of these individuals will have green cards.
>> what about the argument that it will just attract more illegals if they think they can get into the country and receive amnesty?
>> the president’s proposal is a revolving door type of proposal where individuals would be coming and going. and the theory, and i think there is some basis in believing this theory, is that if people have the choice of trying to cross the border illegally through rough terrain, mountains and deserts, versus a three- to six-year visa which enables them to work, they’re going to forward. i think there is truth to that, that large numbers will come forward. so you’re going to alleviate the draw of people coming across illegally if you provide something legal for them.
>> thank you very much, bill hing, law professor at the university of california. the immigration debate continues. but coming up on “money & politics,” former enron chief, ken lay, on the witness stand today. we’ll have the story from houston after this.
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Interview: Senate Finance Chairman---Grassley, Senator Charles---Politician / Govt Official
hello, i’m michael mckee reporting today from washington. welcome to “money & politics.” anyone who’s filled up a tank lately knows gasoline prices have skyrocketed. in fact, the average price is up 31% from this time a year ago. the reasons―a switch to ethanol as the most common gasoline additive and surging crude prices which touched $75.35 a barrel last week and again today before falling back. according to a.a.a., the average pump price for regular gasoline is now $2.908 per gallon, close to the recent high of $3.057 left september 5. in california, as of yesterday, the average now $3.117 and $3.111 in new york city, close to the inflation-adjusted historic high of $3.15 a gallon in 1981. the only ones benefiting, companies that make fuel. shares of valero energy, biggest u.s. refiner, up 34% this year. whose fault is it and what, if anything, can be done? questions for congress asked in congress. peter cook has the story of building outrage on capitol hill.
>> as the price for gasoline moves higher up at the pumps, usually it moves higher on the congressional agenda. that’s what’s happening this week with lawmakers returning to d.c. in response to prices above $3 a gallon, top republicans, including dennis hastert and bill frist today, sending president bush a letter requesting a new probe into possible price gouging. democrats said they want to go further by imposing a windfall profits tax.
>> with a windfall profits tax, we can take big oil’s excess profits and give them back to the consumers in rebates or use them to build alternative and renewable fuel facilities.
>> republicans have shown little support for a windfall profits tax and the federal trade commission is already conducting its own investigation into prices. the president of the national petrochemical and refiners association says any new federal probes will reach the same conclusions as past investigations.
>> all of these investigations and hearings whether held by republicans or democrats at whatever time have always exonerated the industry from any wrongdoing and found that market forces are responsible for price and supply situations.
>> slaughter says the high price of crude oil is the main reason for the rise in prices at the pump, but congress itself is also responsible. the ongoing switch from the fuel additive mtbe to ethanol as mandated has created a logistical problem that he says will be temporary and even if the government wanted to ease the regulatory environment right now, slaughter says there is little the administration can do.
>> if you consider making a change, you want a lot of evidence that a change is necessary under will do more good than harm. that is not the case right now. we are dealing with a logistical situation that will take care of itself in a short period of time. whatever happens, we believe that the free market is the best way to take care of any problem that does exist.
>> if a correction does come in the oil markets as some analysts are predicting, it could reduce the role energy prices may play as an issue in this election year. right now, mike, both democrats and republicans taking aim at this industry.
>> peter cook, thank you. president bush is doing his part to push the immigration debate forward. he told a group of business leaders in california today the u.s. must do more to protect its borders, while at the same time adopting a temporary work program.
>> it seems rational to me and logical to me, to say, ok, fine, you can come and do a job americans won’t do for a temporary period of time with a tamper-proof card. all of a sudden we’ve taken this smuggling industry and dismantled it through rational policy. all of a sudden we recognize that we want to treat people with respect.
>> mr. bush also says a massive depovertiation of the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the country isn’t a realistic possibility and he says the government must enforce laws against hiring undocumented workers without forcing businesses to turn into document inspectors. a new government report says the food and drug administration lacks clear and effective processes for monitoring drug safety after trucks―drugs are approved. the report says insufficient management oversight and unclear organizational structure and murky decision-making process are to blame. senator charles grassley, republican of iowa, asked for the probe after merck withdrew the vioxx painkiller back in 2004. he says the report shows the need for an f.d.a. overhaul. the f.d.a. says it’s already been working to address the issues in the g.a.o. report. we will speak with senator grassley in just a moment. but first, international news to report today. at least 22 people dead, scores more injured in a series of explosions in the egyptian resort town of dahab. the coordinated blasts were a hotel and restaurant in dahab located on the eastern side of the sinai peninsula. it’s the latest attack at coastal resorts in egypt. at least 64 people were killed last july in coordinated bombings at hotels at sharm el-sheik. we will now speak with senator charles grassley, a man who knows a lot about the demand for refiners to switch to ethanol, one of the problems with higher gas problems, a man who knows a lot about the food and drug administration and who serve it’s judiciary committee who will be covering immigration regorm this week. so, senator, you will be a busy man. let’s start with gasoline and the high price thereof. is there anything cangress can do about it now or are we just hearing a lot of political talk on capitol hill?
>> there’s more that individual consumers can do about it. for instance, the “wall street journal” recently said if people drive 3% less, it would lower the price tremendously because supply would be up and there willd be more in the pipeline. along that line, i think government can set a good example. last friday i sent a letter to the president urging him to take all discretionary power that he can in order to give e.p.a. more leeway in boutique-type gasoline, wherever there are certain requirements in the mixture of gasoline, to be very tolerant in those areas. and in regard to the 3% i just stated, i’m going to have the president also advise people within government to set a strict standard of 3% less miles that federal employees would drive and then also within my own staff, i’m going to have a plan put together to set an example, but whatever we save, we save, so that within my own staff there would be 3% less driving. now, let’s see what that does.
>> any reaction yet from the white house to your request for some suspensions of the rules?
>> no, not yet. but, listen, the president can do it because, remember, during katrina last september, there was some relaxing of those regulations that refineries have to meet. so i think that helps. now, you know, the 3% may not sound like much, but it’s―we increase this year’s usage over last year’s in our society by about 1%. and when you only have a 17- to a 20-day supply between the saudi oil wells and your gas tank, that’s a very inflexible sort of supply line. and, you know, nigerian political rebellions, the question of nuclear development by iran and their threat to shut down the straits of hormuz, anything like that, when you have that inflexibility, drives the price up immediately. so we need to see what we can do to help. and another thing, just the high price of gasoline itself does require―does bring about some conservation, as well.
>> we don’t have much time. a lot of things to ask you about. one is immigration. judiciary committee going to start looking at it again. are we likely to get a bill? is there enough public pressure?
>> i can tell you this, in my town meetings last week―and i had 19 of them in iowa, compared to 16 town meetings in the february recess. in the february recess, there were both groups present at my town meetings, those wanting amnesty and those very much opposed to amnesty. in this series of town meetings this week in iowa, no one showed up to back amnesty for illegal aliens and everybody that came to my town meetings at every one of them, very strongly opposed to amnesty. i think we will get a bill. i’m sad to say that i think it will include amnesty. but i think that there will not be a conference agreement worked out between the house and senate between now and the election. and the only thing that would keep us from getting a bill through the united states senate is if the democrats have decided that all of these demonstrations for amnesty are working to their disadvantage and it’s not a very popular thing. and our mail is running eight out of 10 against amnesty, maybe they’ll back off and won’t want a bill, either.
>> iowa senator charles grassley, thank you very much for joining us today.
>> thank you.
>> one question before the senate judiciary committee, whose job should it be to police worker legality? we’ll look at that next on “money & politics.”
