二册2B
------
SIDE B
------
Bow: Think about it this way, like ok, that those are in we know like from our society like in North America, or Australia, in developed countries or Korea, like um, everybody's looking for a sense of community and they use the church that way.
Daisy: But I do think that it, I mean, it has to become at some point, I mean, it's great, if we can sit around and have a drink and share our thoughts on spirituality and we agree, I don't see what the difference of us doing that and going, the concept of going to church on a Sunday as a community, I don't see the difference in that. As long as you are, and you brought up that concept m what is holy? Well I believe that, that being holy is just being aware that you too are a spiritual being. I believe that, the bible says that we're created in God's image, Buddhism says that we're, we are part of the chain, the chain, we are all, and we are nothing. It's all connected, and it's all in who we are. If we're aware that we are spiritual, we're just on a path of trying to be better and bettering ourselves you are a holy person, and I don't think it's up to any religion to tell me that I'm not holy because I go and have IVF or because I choose not, I choose to take contraception.
Luke: I really do hate that aspect of religion, the prosylitizing type of evangelical preachy kind of religion, where it's where there's an effort.., the whole idea of the mission, going out and converting these people and making them, you know, understand and believe exactly the way you believe in things. Because I think ultimately it has to be a personal experience. Religion is such a subjective thing and you can only, really, surround yourself with people who have generally the same ideas you have. If you try to get to, to detailed in what you believe and what you don't believe, you come up with, with arguments and it is just a faith thing, it has to be left at that.
Vivian: Exactly, the reason why we have more and more divisions of each religion, (Luke: Yes, they keep splintering) because, when you keep dissecting this, the reason why we can and can't, this is what we are supposed to do, why we come up with more divisions?
Bow: Well, I think that, yeah, this is all true, but religion is connected to community and people want a sense of community and to get that, I think, they go through religion. So, um, like you're talking about what is good and I'm a good person, but you're only a good person according to what your community thinks, other people around you. So this might be a bad example, but, like let's say, a guy, a human being, a baby that's raised by wolves like Tarzan, it's kinda stupid. Um...well I mean, if you think about it that way, he doesn't have ant connection to other people (Daisy: Society) so then, maybe he will be purely holy, he's just acting on instinct, just like, even though he's got a brain, like the wolves do.
Daisy: Good point, so therefore religion then, is based on society? Well, there's plenty of problems with society, if we're gonna base it on that, religion can be a good thing, but it has to lead you back to yourself. If you are not back to yourself to make your own decisions, with some type of, you know, a personal conscience if you're not understanding the reasons why this is a sin or the reasons why this is good and bad. Then I think that the whole concept then of religion would be anti-christian, because you are not perpetuating christian values.
Vivian: Don't you think that's the reason why religion has become impure, God and the church or the monastery or whatever, is supposed to be pure and you're supposed to go there to release and to learn. But then, because of all these society, societal pressures that we receive the church is not as innocent and pure as it used to be, like I would like to think of church as "Little House on the Prairie', you go Sunday, you meet people you come there to not only socialize, but to feel good and go back after a prayer thank you for our harvest and what not and please give us blessing. Then you go and chop it up and then people want to dissect the religion and say, well wait a minute, she got a pr...uh, she got an abortion, of she did this and that. And then you come up with all these issues and that's where church becomes so, ... it's a hypocrisy. After a while, you just want to, you know, why can't I just be the nice little picture, and go there for faith, and for moral reasons, and maybe support, (Luke: Support, yeah.), support, exactly.
Luke: I grew up, I was raised on a commune actually, of families who were, whose ideology was based on a sort of a communality and belief in, belief in Jesus and stuff. And um, it was yeah, it was done in the living room, you know, people would ... the families would come together, and they worship in the living room, just sit around the piano, and play songs and stuff, kind of the hippie vibe, it's kind of kind of cheesy now but it was really nice. It was a nice way to learn about religion and stuff, and whatever beliefs I developed later, that was a really nice thing, and as time grew on, the families, they are, like the church itself grew and other families became involved and it grew and it became larger in size, and then after a couple of years, the issue was raised of, of gender in the church, can't God be a man, and a woman, or does it just have to be a man. And it was, just, I don't know where it came from, but the question was raised, and all of a sudden people had very strong opinions on this. Just because it was raised, everyone was getting along but when that came up, all of a sudden there was this huge division in the church and so, suddenly, all my friends who'd grown up with in this commune and stuff, who'd all moved out by that time of course, they were all going to, to alternating sundays. I couldn't meet my friends anymore, because the people who believed God was a man came on this Sunday, and the people who thought God could be a man or a woman came on the other Sunday. It totally changed everything.
Vivian: Exactly, that's the hypocrisy of the church. I mean, the bigger it gets, and the more we try to (Daisy: Dissect it) you know, nit and pick at it and everything, the worse it gets. Isn't it nice? If, you are just in a small little church, everyone's very friendly and good to each other, and there, to support each other.
Daisy: But that would be saying that everybody has to believe what everybody believes everybody else thinks, I don't think that, I think that's just human nature, that's gonna happen, but it becomes a big problem when it gets huge and organized, and I think that's the problem if we keep it at a personal level, or small community thing, it'd be much better.
Bow: Yeah, and I have a good example of this of like community and church and like when Korean people immigrate to America, the majority of them join a church, and the reason is because the people that have already gone there are connected to everything else, that means setting up that person and they bring a little bit of money and they join the church, that means that they just except all their beliefs or whatever, just for the reason that they can get set up in the community, the church gives them loans. They're real state agents, they tell them where to locate, they tell them everything. And it kinda puts religion on the back-burner, or they just wanna live a new life and they're not really caring about beliefs. I talked to my, urn, uncle-in-law, my uncle and, he said, I said, "Why do you go to that catholic church?" He says, because after the service is finished we can drink beer and tell dirty jokes.
Vivian: Well, come on, that's the negative aspect of it, but O.K. I go to visit my parents once in a while and my sister and my mom, and everybody goes to Korean methodist church. And I went there to visit and we have literally three caucasians in the entire population of the church, who are like husbands of maybe Korean women. But it's a church of maybe five hundred, six hundred, just Koreans and it's a small knit neighborhood, almost, their own little society. And I'd like to compare it to like Plymouth, you know in 3amestown. You have, you're in the middle of this huge country, you don't know anyone, you can't speak the language. I noticed that a majority of them couldn't speak the language but they all goes to this church, yes they have prayer and they eat together and they listen to the service together but then afterward they have little classes for people who can't. You know, speak English, they'll have English classes, they'll have Korean classes for those don't. They, they take people shopping, they help them out in this community.
Bow: I experienced this when I was a little kid in third grade. My best friend was a Korean and they used to go to like this church, I think it was either Baptist or Methodist. And my family was Catholic, so my parents just thought that, "well, it's christian, so, you know, go with him one day'; he brought me to his church one Sunday. And I, I got really scared because, they went to one of those classes, and they told me that I had to be saved right there, that means that if I'm saved then I'm guaranteed of going to heaven, I was like well, you know, that was not like, let's not, you what catholicism told me, I got really scared, and I said well I'd better just do it just in case, you know like, you know, so I did, but I thought it was really freaky, and like they would play games with the bible like they'd call out, urn, a proverb or something and everyone would try to flip through it and find it first, and I was like, what is going on here? This is bizarre, you know, so, I think, they got their own little thing going on over there (Luke: Uke a contest or something) yeah, but, you're right, in... you're coming from one country and going to another, it's very easily, it's easy to a... make that transition and they, that's they've set up church because to them there, as far as the American society looks at Asians coming to America. They're like, oh they're good people because they're christians and they have this church but they got a lot of other stuff going around?
Vivian: O.K. alright. That's the reason church is there, it's supposed to support the community and help each other out, give a lending hand, what about foreign churches that are here, for foreign communities, you go there and you're lost, hey, the church is gonna help you find residency, they're gonna help you find a, help you get around with transportation, you need help here, there, you need help finding a job, we're gonna help you, because that's what the community is supposed to be there for, isn't the church supposed to be the backbone of the community? It's supposed to be there for you, when you need something, you can rely on them, when there's a drought, when there's starvation, the church is supposed to give you a helping hand, that's why they're there.
Daisy: Actually, I thought that, was what the role of government was supposed to do, (Vivian: but the government doesn't fulfill that as much as it can, it should) well, that's a problem, that's a problem if the American government isn't doing that. In Australia we have a government that's set up, um I would consider to be fifty percent socialist, and fifty percent capitalist, so that people that don't have jobs, that don't have money if there's a flood, they're given money. I have a problem, I have a problem with urn, the church doing too much for people, and I really think that um if the church is playing such an integral role in society, that it's playing the wrong role, especially because um you know if the past, the pastor or whatever he's called, if he is taking money and he's taking money from these people and he, and they find the church to be so important. Then in christianity, it was 3esus Christ himself that walked in and told them to tear down the temple because it's not the church, it's not the temple that is most important thing. It's your relationship with God.
Vivian: O.K. and I agree with that, I don't think that you have to be physically in the church to be religious, I think you should, you don't have to go to church at all, it's my opinion, but I'm saying church can have out-reach programs, they can have programs to help the community and its members. If not, if they can't get involved in any of that, and it is only and strictly the role of the government or private agencies, then what is the role of church. Is it so you can go in there, cause this is what I find, so stupid literally about churches, is church there so you go can go on Sunday with your hymnal, and your, you know, study materials, listen to the preacher and then listen to a bunch of songs and then go home, that's what it's there for?
Bow: Because people thought that they're doing their duty.
Vivian: Yeah, exactly, that, that's, what it becomes, it ends up being a dutiful thing (Daisy: right) and it becomes, Sunday morning we wake up, get pretty, go to church, listen to the minister, sing songs and then go home. (Daisy: Yeah) That's not what church is supposed to be, they're there to support you, that is all a morale thing doing the, you know, going to church and singing and listening to... that's a morale thing, after church, then people can, one on one, not with the minister, but it can be the person sitting next you "hey, are you're having problem?, do you need someone to talk to?", Help thy neighbor, this, this kinda stuff is in the, in the bible, it's supposed to be there for support, and I think that the stories, my personal opinion is, I think that those stories in the bible are examples for you to, to, you know, get fulfillment out of... maybe, a foundation or you know for you to maybe get some morals out of, like you listen to -- there's a story of well.., she's a bad woman but they were all criticizing her, and God comes and helps her, hey, they're not saying do the same thing. They're saying help someone that is, you know, that everyone else is maybe not so nice to.
Daisy: Right. I think that, that is all good if the church is helping poor people and also for people helping you know, the needy (Vivian: sure, why not?) or the people that need support in settling in a country or whatever. But I'm saying that the church should never become the focus of why they're joining the church itself.
Vivian: Exactly, it's why that, there's so much corruption in churches especially what the past ten years, you know, in America, there's big scandals. Because they're getting money, they're using this money they're not actually as religious as they seem, it's when the churches become too big and corrupt. You wanna keep them small-scale so that they are really supporting the community.
Daisy: Right.
Vivian: How about this, how about we skip to another topic, since we got so depth on this. How do you feel about going to heaven and going to hell, uh, does anybody have any opinions on that?
Bow: Yeah, I used to think that that's all there was, there was a heaven and a hell, but now I don't think about it, because I think there's just like I said earlier, there's interpretations of heaven and hell, to the Buddhists, you know, it's like being recycled, to, you know, urn, to me, it doesn't really matter what you call it, it's just, eventually, we're gonna go somewhere and we'll find out then, you know, so, I mean, I think it's like a fear tactic, especially for the catholic church to say like hell and describe it so vividly, you know to say that, who wants to go there for eternity?, you know, of course you're not gonna not people, and you know.
Vivian: And they, and they make it a point to teach it to you while you're really little, and then it's in your head. Once you're an adult, if someone were to say there's this place called hell and you're gonna die and if you go there, it's really bad.
Bow: Well, here's another thing speaking about death, um now what do you, what do you believe is more scary, like I think actually. I was afraid of like when they would tell me well you go to heaven, and you just live forever, and I was like, I can't think of living forever (Daisy: sure,) that's bizarre to me or another thing that would be bizarre is the other way, the opposite way is, everything just turns black, and that's scary too, you know, so...
Daisy: Nothingness.
Vivian: And what about reincarnation too, I mean...
Bow: That's my way out. Once I found out about that, I'm like.., cool. I'll just come back again.
Luke: I'm a duck.
Vivian: You, you live a different life, right. A flower, a tree.., a duck.
Bow: You're putting it down, but you've never been a flower, you haven't been a duck.
Vivian: No, I think that's better than, it's better than living one life forever.
Daisy: Sure, I think that most of those things in christianity were probably, you know, made up, to control people, you know, I think the Catholic church is and the christian church the England as well has used those tactics in many ways to control things like, even population (Bow: and it's worked) you know, the church of England said it's ok, to take contraception when the Catholic church didn't. I think there's a lot of historical background I think in those concepts, but um, yeah, I don't know, I think, I'd like to go with the reincarnation thing. But then if you get to utopia, where are we going after that?
Bow: Well, that's the thing I was talking about before.
Daisy: Nirvana, nirvana, that's it.
Luke: The collective consciousness whatever, that one is supported by, by, science actually to a degree and the Nitrogen cycle and everything, how you're composed.., decomposing body will fertilize the trees around it, matter cannot be created or destroyed. It's just, you know, it just changes form, just takes different shapes, so if you figure, whatever it is that makes up who you are right now your consciousness, your physical and your spiritual self. If you think of that energy, the GI, or the soul or whatever, going just, taking a different form. It's comforting. I'm cool to that.
Vivian: So, I'll have we all come to a consensus to become Buddhist monks and reincarnate ourselves?
Luke: No.
Daisy: No, but my question would be then, after you've done that complete cycle, if reincarnation is the deal, right. If you've completed your cycle, you've lived five hundred a thousand lives. How many lives you are supposed to live and you got to the point of complete enlightenment that Buddha was able to come to, then, what's nirvana?
Bow: I don't know, it's a band from Seattle.
Daisy: What happens after that, where do you go?
Bow: Well, that's the thing again, like what I was saying, we only have the capacity to think linear, where do you go? Where did we come from? We only go in a line.
Daisy: Well, that's exactly the thing that's the deal. You have to reach it to be able to compare yourself until you realize what that is supposed to be, I mean we have to go and experience it ourselves, I guess.
Daisy: I guess that answers it's own question. If you are completely enlightened then you'd know what nirvana was.
Luke: And I think that any description of what it could be would be limited by language. I think something that's so holy and so such this great thing, well, I mean, what could it possibly be, you couldn't comprehend it. Because you could experience it but it's like, you know, writing about art or something, it's like you're limited by language, you can't put it into words, it's just a purely ...
Vivian: Well, I mean if you put it that way, no, I hate to go often into this topic, but, take sex. I mean, you don't know it until you do it, and then you don't know what's it like to feel like, until you've felt a certain, you know, OK, degree of it.
Bow: Religion of Sex.
Vivian: It's like people say "hey, this tastes like this and this and this, if you've never tasted it before, no matter how much someone can describe it to you, you're not gonna know.
Luke: That's very tentative.
Daisy: O.K., then, we get to nirvana or you're gonna come back as something else, what would you like to come back as?
Luke: I don't think, I don't think of if in terms of this life's over, I'm gonna start a different life, or I'm a goat or whatever.
Luke: I guess it's changes I guess if I could choose something, yeah, a goat would be pretty cool.
Daisy: A goat, (Yeah) what about you?
Bow: I don't know, a goat, too, but here's a thing that I find the discrepancy in that reincarnation is, if that's the way it goes. How come we don't, except for like these Buddhist monks who are enlightened, remember any of this, what's the purpose of not remembering, why are we just reincarnated a hundred million times, but we can't use any of that experience.
Daisy: Maybe it's like, um I guess it's just like, if you pass go, you don't get two hundred dollars if you know what I mean, like you live one life, and then basically, you stuffed that one up, you made a lot mistakes. So, what you get is just an another chance.
Bow: But you don't know about it.
Daisy: You don't get the two hundred bucks...you know, when you pass go?
Bow: And then it's comes back to a scientific thing, or just you know, like my friend said, "Matter can't be created or destroyed'; right? So like just the energy is moving into something else, the energy doesn't have, actually, a sense of being, but it bes...
Vivian: I mean if you could remember all those experiences and then that way you can make better choice in the next life, then we would all be at a point of nirvana and enlightenment. There would be no point in living life, in a sense, right?
Bow: Not necessarily, because they say people with bad karma turn out to be bad things, and it just keeps going over and over again, until you break the cycle.
Vivian: So what happened to me?
Bow: Maybe.
Daisy: Because, because, that's what I think, the key to religions, you have to or spirituality, you have to at some point make that decision yourself. Oh, I've done something bad, and I know it's bad, then you break the cycle of karma, right? But if you already know when you're born you were given that information without,.., that would be the same as what churches tell you to do, right? This is wrong, don't do it, just don't think about why it's wrong, or why it's bad. We're telling you that it's wrong so therefore you can't do it. But if you have that information you are like, you're complete in your life and on your track and you are going somewhere, just like, oh well, that's right, I did that, and I'm not supposed to do that. But you have to be able to at some point, at that crossroads, make that decision yourself. I'm gonna go this way, I'm gonna go that way because of A and because of B.
Vivian: Well, haven't you had experiences in your life where, ok, I'm sure we've all had really big pitfalls, I've had times when I've gotten really sick, to the point, or not just sick and hacking and I have a cold. But you know, I felt really sick and I felt, like, wow it woke me up, like I don't wanna be drinking every night and you know, you're on a nice roll for about a month and of course you get back into that partying mode. But it's like a, you know my mother got really sick and nothing else is that is important anymore, it's kind of enlightens you, to a certain point, it only lasts so long. But still you hit moments in your life or there are experiences and times in your life where it kinda wakes you up so to speak. And you know, you don't necessarily need the church to enlighten you, life and the events that come along with it, it does that for you, and for people, for example, we hear about, like you know, dope addicts or alcoholics they, you know, have a point in their life where they're just really messed up and then they go to A.A. or the church for support. It's because they need a little more support where they can't handle it themselves but you know for all of us, we go through periods in our life where we are going through enlightenment everyday.
Daisy: Urn, personal growth.
Vivian: Right and experiences.
Luke: Yeah, I think it's probably the evolution thing that's where it's gonna continue. I think that it should be, because it is something that we share with other people too. Maybe that's what happens with the energy. It's not, it's not created or destroyed but maybe it's refined, it becomes more sophisticated. (Daisy: clarity) Yeah, we start becoming clearer as a species as a human, as a human community. I think that would be one of the, urn, one of the hopeful outcomes of our continued presence as a species.
Bow: But what do you know, you only use thirteen percent of your brain.
Vivian: Ok, but look.
Luke: Gotta start using more.
Vivian: But, I mean, look at us, were in, we're not middle-aged yet, we're still quite young. I mean, compare a child to us, and then compare an elderly person. You become life becomes sweeter for you the older you get they say. You're more mature, your mind is more mature, and when you speak to someone who's a little bit more older they seem nicer don't they? They seen more at ease, comfort with themselves and their life, they've come to more understanding of everything. They're not trying to, you know, fight against life like we are everyday... I mean, hopefully anyway we'll still, we'll be at that point when we get to their age.
Bow: Well, that's something that I believe in like why I'm starting to lean more toward reincarnation and the whole fact of that circle or that cycle. It's because when you think about what we know, and what are facts are, when you're a baby you're brought in new. And you don't really know anything and then you come to a peak which is almost like your life is a half circle. So it's like you're going up and hit your peak and then you become old and senile and you become like a baby again. That's life circle and then you go the other way around.
Vivian: I wasn't talk about going senile. I was talking about (Daisy: yeah... wisdom) wisdom exactly.
Daisy: Yeah, I do think that, that happens as you get older, if it doesn't, you know, it's bad luck for you. But you know, I think that's important, and I think that what makes us wiser is just life itself. Because, you live and you lose and all your losses. If you're not learning from them, then you don't gain the gift of the wisdom.
Luke: Things do go in a line, they effect, effect your future by the choices you make today, if you're an imbecile your whole life, you're not just all of a sudden gonna be an old wise person.
Daisy: Exactly.
Luke: And so religion is useful in that, in that it sort of gives you a reference point. Maybe something if you want to live a just life and stuff, you'll end up being a just person at the end of the day, at the end of your life time and stuff, and hopefully you'll have picked a couple of things up. But it's good to, I think it's useful in that, yeah it keeps people on a, keeps them on a pretty good, pretty good way to go, a pretty good path I guess.
Vivian: I got an A on this one paper in journalism class, and it was (Luke: Good for you) Well no. It's sorta has to do with this, like I was, everybody has their nice little topic. But I was, like I was just kind of trashing everything you know, why do we go to school, why do we go to elementary school, so we can go to junior high. Why do we go to junior high, so we can go to high school. Why do we graduate from high school, so we can go to college. Why do we graduate from college, oh, so we can work. Why do we work? So we can earn money for our families. Why do we earn money for our families, so we can die and give it, pass it on to our children, and grandchildren. And then so what is the point of life and why do you fight against life that whole time until you retire. And then when you retire you kind of relent to, you know, you're not fighting anymore, you kind of like give into life. You enjoy taking walks, you enjoy walking through the woods and smelling flowers and going back to nature, kind of going back to simplicity, and not so much going with society and complexity.
Bow: I know people who appreciated those things, now.
Vivian: Yeah...
Daisy: Well, that's what I hope to do, you know, like they're the values, the values that I see in teachers, wiser and older people than me. I try to live a life, it's not easy to live a life like that, but I try to.
Vivian: We say we live that life now, sure, but then living in a bustling city. How many times do you really look at the stars, how many times do you go for a hike, do you go for a hike? once a week? No, you don't, we are working all day. We are inside, we're not smelling the roses everyday, we go drinking every night instead, we smoke all day, and uh, we eat greasy foods all day, we're stuck in, dark, cold places and... (Luke: Sorry God, sorry God.) Yeah, exactly I'm saying.
Vivian: We don't really relent or give into life.
Luke: I don't know what you're doing a...
Bow: Nature boy.
Vivian: I can speak for all of you guys, it's true.
Luke: No it's not.
Daisy: No it's not.
Luke: No it's not at all.
Daisy: Well, having said that at least she said, brings me back to I guess my complete belief in what spirituality and religion is that it's very personal and what I do to make myself a spiritual person. At least, she thinks that wisdom and spirituality obviously come hand in hand and that, it is living a healthy life and doing these things. But the way I um you know, have a relationship with God and the way that I express my spirituality. Perhaps it's in a different way, that's a personal thing, and I believe that's the essence, what is your ideal of your relationship with God, and my ideal and everybody else's is a personal thing and that's come form within.
Vivian: Right, whatever you feel, if you have, you know, a nice understanding of, you know, what God means to you, or what, you know, happiness is to you.
Luke: Go with it.
Vivian: Exactly.
Bow: Yeah, I agree, but with everything that's been said, almost everything. I think that it is an inner thing an inner spirituality and if you can find that, I think you'll be ok, you know, and uh, you know just don't kill people, and ... don't rape and don't pillage you know, think of you how you would like to be treated yourself (Daisy: Sure) from other people.
Vivian: I think we all have an understanding of what good and bad is after you've lived a little bit. Everyone has done something bad and so, we all kind of, nobody really wants to live a bad life, we all wanna lead a good life and whatever is satisfactory to you, you know, go with it.
Daisy, Bow: Amen.
