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sunyuting1 2008-06-11 08:03
压码程度的关系：
    对于第一遍练习《听说大突破》解决的问题是听懂和说口语的途径问题，四天找到听说的原因是值得的。
    第二遍练习《听说大突破》我们力图解决的问题，是通过压码听懂一种练习，透析压码程度之间的关系，让压码的语音、文本、意思能够看到，看到压码的能力对于相互关系的影响因素，对于英语能力提高的重要意义。
    方法：通过整理的文本的不同，看出是否听到语音、是否听清语音、是否听清文本、是否听清意思、是否听清口语？来显示压码的不同程度的内部关系。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 08:13
会不会压码听清的问题？
    压码听清到压码听懂是一个方法，压码听懂就是深度压码听清，也是压码听清的细化练习。
    是否压码听清了，就是一个 简单的判断，能够做到压码一个句子，没有做到压码一个句子的听清是听清，没有到达压码检验的听清。听到、听清压码听清。这是三个基本层次。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 08:21
只要按照压码听清的基本程序和过程，循序渐进练习压码调整速度变速、压码注音变速、调整呼吸和深度听清，这四个步骤一天可以做到压码听清，有了压码听清的基础，下面就可以练习压码听清的深度听清的细化练习---压码听懂了。这就是保证你学会基本压码方法的巩固和提高。
  但是大家听清的程度不一样，听清了语音，听清了文本，听清了意思、听清了口语，听清了写作是不一样的。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 08:37
对比看一下整理的两个不同的文本：一个是基本词组的短句子，一个是长句子下面的细化短句子。
    第一个整理的文本，是采用听到语音，看着文本的停顿节奏，快速回车，就将文章的语音，分拆成了基本词组短语，这练习的时候听清的细腻程度，可以通过速度来调节，就是说：你可以做到听清的过程中来压码，压码什么？语音的听顿节奏是一个语音的轮廓，可以通过细化语音的基本词组的大小来定位基本词组，想听清的细腻一些，很好办，速度放慢一些，就可以听清细化到单词的音节，单词的拼写，单词之间的短句子合成、分解，单词的字母组合，单词之间的变音、连读和断开，这些只有通过压码注音才可以做到的细节上来，这个你要压码，就是将听到的语音压码到文字上的细化过程。
    你只要练习一遍，就可以基本记忆出来语音对应的文本，再练习常速你就可以压码听清全部的文章，不断细化起来。帮助你压码记忆。
   


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 08:55
第二种整理的文本：
  大家看到的是文本句子长了，中间有。。。省略号分割，就是他可以看出基本词组，每个分割的省略号全部回车就和第一种整理文本一样了，同时几个基本词组在一行种连接起来，就说明他是一个句子的听顿的回车位置，你看着文本听语音可以注意到连接词和重复的废话。这是说话的思维过程和理解的记忆过程，在文本上的显示。
    操作过程：一边左手按“。”键，一边右手操作鼠标断句，将不同词组之间的连接词通过省略号分开，一边右手快速按回车键断开行间距的句子分行，这是你回发现同样的速度练习时间不够用，只要你采用15%速度到也可以顺利完成，要想提高速度，右手断句的位置和左手断省略号的连接词，要操作熟练，只要快速点击“。”提高省略号的速度，就可以采用较快的速度练习了。
  这样你看文本，就直接看到连接词的作用，他是理解和口语的桥梁。实际上你学习英语只要找到这些连接词，都是最简单的单词，大家乘做小词，二不是生词，在影响你的理解。生词不影响理解，只要压码记住了生词就理解了，但是只要你不能压码连接词就不能理解。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 09:02
你听语音（不看文本）的时候听清达到怎样的程度了？这个问题是一些学员的困惑。
  如果听清达到语音，你可以压码一个句子的语音进行回想出来，但是回想出来的语音不能理解，因为你回想不出来文本的单词音节和连接词。记住你一定不能回想出来连接词，就是你不能理解的原因。
  你压码压到了语音是一种压码程度的体现，你压码压到基本词组的节奏是一种压码程度的体现，你压码压到文本的单词是一种压码程度的体现，你压码文本压码出语音是一种压码程度的体现，你压码说话是一种压码程度的体现。着就是压码听清的细化过程，压码听懂要解决的问题。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 09:09
压码整理文本可以看着文本压码语音、文本和意思，这个比较容易做到，所以要整理文本过程中听语音压码语音。
  单词你听语音压码文本压码不出来，特别是压码听不清文本的连接词，你就不能理解。
  解决的办法：就是压码整理文本以后，将你整理文本听语音记住语音文本意思的对应关系，多练习几词记住语音，看文本阅读加深理解，将连接词和重复的废话记住，还原到正常的句子。
  好了，你在练习听语音，就可以听出文本来了，当然就可以理解了。
  实际上连接词和废话多数都是类似的，也很少，练习几遍就会掌握规律。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 09:17
压码出来了语音、文本、意思，你学会了英语思维的过程和汉语完全一样，得到的个结论会使得你大吃一惊，英语思维就是中文思维，这个问题就太容易掌握了。英语和中文不同所不同的就是基本词组的排列顺序。
    所以压码整理文本只要熟悉基本词组排列顺序就可以解决理解和说口语问题了。
    实际上你在压码理解以后，你并不能全部记住文章，但是你会说了以后，就不用记住文章了。这就是先压码整理文本理解文章，然后通过英语思维学会说口语，这个说口语你只要通过压码听懂就可以实现。反过来再听语音理解记忆就容易了。

  以后你练习英语就是在理解基础上的重复压码记忆的自然消化吸收，说明白一点，因为你是可以理解的，所以你就得到了第一个假设条件，所有文章的压码听懂是在理解基础上的练习。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 11:30
压码的进程：
  1、整理文本，听着语音看着文本，语音和文本对应起来，二者联系要细腻；
  2、听着语音，看着整理完毕的文本，进行检验整理文本的语音停顿正确性，同时加深语音压码记忆；
  3、听语音，看语音频谱图，进行压码回想完整的句子，看自己可以压码到达怎样的程度，看自己压码到语音，压码到文本，压码到意思的那个层次；检验压码提前造句，压码跟随，压码回想，多重压码记忆；
  4、看文本，压码到语音，压码理解记忆。
    压码开始不能做到压码到语音、文本、意思三者归一，因为练习压码听懂的程度还有区别，只要按照压码程度的不同步骤练习，可以分别解决不同的问题。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 11:58
不要在自己压码程度达不到的情况下浪费时间。
什么意思？就是压码一次达到所有最深的层次不容易，就是说你开始压码练习，没有完全压码到音、形、义是正常的，压码练习以后的遗忘也是正常的，这是你千万不要着急。压码可以很快提高到记忆语音、记忆文本，理解记忆意思的程度。
  压码只达到一个句子的回想语音正确就说明自己可以立即练习好，练习一遍压码整理文本就达到了语音细节、理解意思的程度，最多一个分拆语音文本放慢速度，一定要语音、文本同步整理，用1个小时时间就可以解决问题。这是关键的解决问题的步骤，压马掌握的细节一定要拼写文本到最小的单元。
    直接听语音如果不能全部压码到语音、文本、意思的程度，联系一遍以后，听语音的效果是最好的，不要再浪费时间反复听语音，这对练习的总有效学习时间是不利的。最好的办法是换一个方式练习，看整理的文本听语音，认真练习一遍，可以重复一遍，再练习直接听语音，就可以听懂到语音、文本、意思的层面，压码语音深化了。
    整理文本以后可以修改整理文本，这样你只要在修改上重新练习一遍，并加以修改旧可以对停顿把握的更准确了，你还可以进一步细化语音细节到文本，速度就可以提高到50%到100%速度练习，同时又是加深记忆的过程。在回来练习听语音，就可能亚码听懂到完整长句子的理解记忆上。
  如果你压码语音、文本、意思都很认真，效果感觉很好，倒是最后整篇课文练习下来记忆不好，容易遗忘，这时候说明你在巩固直接听语音的时间和遍数不够，在完全压住语音、文本、理解意思的基础上的听语音，效果才是最好的。这时反复巩固的过程，前面再没有完全压住音、形、义的情况下，只是练习整理文本以后的一个休息机会来进行效果检验。只有效果最好的情况下，已经消化了能够完全吸收的情况下反复听才有利于巩固记忆。
    练习完毕，的压码阅读，可以充分消化吸收，加深理解记忆。这时提高的是看文本回想语音的能力，和理解记忆的能力。如果直接听几遍理解记忆效果不好的情况下，一定不要浪费听语音的时间，压马阅读以下，记忆效果会更好。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 12:35
压码听懂的最终目的是听说读写全部掌握，实际上就是压码听出音、形、义并且记忆住。实际上大家是不能在开始压码就理解实现的。说实话我也不能做到，只有压码看电影才能够做到，但是不属于本文讨论的范围，因为那样练习虽然简单容易、效果好，但是太累，需要图像，而最难的是没有图像的语音压码听懂。
    我们练习听力效果好与差的区别，一是不知道影响因素，哪里有问题的解决方法不知道，二是能否不浪费练习时间，不要强攻，要制取。只要练习效果不好就不要依靠反复练习、刻苦练习来攻克，而是马上根据问题采取变换练习方式，达到最佳有效学习时间。
    实际上真正练习压码听懂的关键点只有一个整理文本的步骤，其他步骤都是配套的步骤，是让你休息的时间，放松以后继续保持精力练习下面一课语音的短暂修饰检验学习效果的时间。真阳才能练习的速度又快又好？就是突击练习压码整理的语音数量。而一个分拆语音的目的，就是让你不会再身体疲劳的时候坚持练习，而是还没有感觉疲劳，一个小时就练习完毕，自己感觉还不解气，还要练习新的语音。这样你没有压力，心情就高兴了，效果当然也好。练习次数不要过多，有的学员为了达到学习效果，反复练习一课语音，这样开始还容易坚持，但是经常这样练习对保持永久的学习效果不利。
    最后练习一天的内容，学习效果都是最佳的状态进行，全天任务完成了，该睡了，再也不认真练习新的内容了，这才是最后记忆的机会。而且以觉醒来，就是几个小时，带耳机睡觉是巩固听力的最佳时机。谁会舍得正式练习时间进行巩固听力。


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 12:46
只看着文本也可以整理文本，整理文本语音停顿的基本词组和句子。
只要你整理过一次文本时在听着语音地情况下进行的，不听语音真理文本，也同样可以借助连接词整理文本。经常练习压码听懂的学员实际上，听语音整理的文本和不听语音整理的文本，你进行以下听语音看文本整理文本实际上是一样的，但是从来不进行听语音、看文本的学员，只是在不与语音同步练习整理文本效果和准确率就大打折扣。
  所以一定要强调：在论坛实时听语音、看文本整理基本词组练习。
  而且练习的时候，即使整理文本速度快于语音仍然是准确的。这时你必须眼睛重新找到播放的语音停留在文本的地方，这样语音效果才能更好，提高更快。
  只有你自己练习非常熟练多情况下，比如你会上班的空心时间整理文本，没有语音整理文本，你同样可以进行。在下班以后第一步整理文本就可以直接通过修改整理文本、直接看整理完毕的文本听语音进行检验、压码理解记忆。学习效率也是很高的。因为你练习这个语音以后，又要进行下面语音的练习了。看着文本看出语音的细节来。
 
   


no1vitas 2008-06-11 15:36
每当看孙老师的新作就会很开心，我进一步加深了理解，也为孙老师的仔细和造诣感到佩服。孙老师为了帮助我们学好英语，压码法就为了我们“懒人”学英语而开创的。孙老师还注意提高我们的兴趣，让我们对自己有信心能学下去，这方面老师也摸索了很多道理。当我感到困难的时候，看看老师的文章，想想老师在和我们一起努力，看看老师的态度，我们没有理由放弃。真不知道怎么感谢老师，唯有一句：祝老师天天开心，万事如意！


sunyuting1 2008-06-11 21:21
分拆语音

3. Abortion and Sexual EducationB1 的29分6秒到43分38.36秒的语音文本



------
SIDE B
------

Vivian:


OK. Let's, ...let's get..... back to.... that in a little, .....in a minute here.
.....We can talk about..... the details. ....OK, Daisy. .....Do you.... wanna tell us.... where you stand?

Daisy:

......OK. Well, .....actually ....I just wanna to... ask Bow .....a question.
......Um, ....I just wanna to.... ask him.....
if you do ....have like ....obviously..... I understand....
what you're saying..... and probably..... pretty much most peoples' views .....are the same,
but..... how could .....you make a law.... to make a standard.... for that type of thing,
..... how could... you say:..... it's ok..... for this person.... to have an abortion
..... but it's not ok..... for a woman..... in her thirties .....who's not married,
.....but has..... the financial ability ....to have a child?

Vivian:

There's a wide grey area.

Bow:

Yeah...., I don't know,.... it's,.... I don't,.... I'm not a law maker,
.....I don't know.... that is still uh,... just, uh,... just my opinion. ....That's what I think,
...(Vivian: Exactly)
....and I,... it should be.... talked about more.
....People ....that do make laws ....and people ...that do make theirs,
....you know,.... who have.... these problems ....and these situations ...come up,
....and we should be... talked about.

Luke:
....
..... But you're basically.... pro-choice, .....but you don't think.... you don't feel that,
.... that it should be.... used as a form of..... birth-control ....for example.
(Vivian: It shouldn't be abused.)

Bow:

.....If you have to.... label it, ....but I think, ....you know.... within the label of pro- choice ...or extreme pro-choice people,
.....and there are.... extreme pro-life.
..... But I'm more ...you know,.... in the middle of... both of those.

Luke:

Of course, ....I would say.... the same..... I would say ....that I'm definitely pro- choice,
....but I think ...that yeah,.... abortion is ...not something.... that you just,
.... you just, ....sort of do.... for the heck of it..... But I don't think, ....I don't think... that's any human,
....in a person's nature,.... I mean...., if someone's gonna, ...gonna have a child, ...
....a woman is, ....obviously,.... is gonna have the child,
..... there's gonna be ....some kind of attachment to,
.... and some kind of like.... psychological.... factor there.
....That doesn't make it ....an easy decision.... in any,.... in any situation.
.... I think... if it's a repeated thing,.... if it's,... it happens continually,
.... there's a obviously problem there ....and I don't know,.... it's hard to... regulate that
(Bow: Yeah)
....but I also, ....I don't think... that someone... who's definitely... not ready,
.... and not interested.... in raising a child ....and isn't ....gonna give a 100%,
....or isn't just like, ...mentally.... and emotionally prepared.... for that, ...for that to happen.
....I don't know ....if it's... if it's a wise move.... and... if there not,.... if they're not.... fully committed ...to it.
.....That's the first sign ...that it's,... uh, ....no, shouldn't do it,... shouldn't be done,..
.... shouldn't happen, ....do the abortion,.. give the child, ....
.....like a fair shot ....a having a real life... kind of thing.

Vivian:

So both.... you guys.... are kind of ....in the pro-choice section....
but not very,... you know,...
(Daisy: Pro-life) right.

Bow:

I don't think... for the extreme ....pro-choice people... who say like, ...uh,
it's gonna ruin ...my career ....and this kind of thing,
...if that person ....has confidence... in themselves,
....and I believe ...that they could rise ...above that, ....they could... take care of a child,
....and then,.... I think once.... that they started to.... raise the child.... and they could,
....people do it all ...the time,.... they have careers.... and they raise children,
...they become successful. ...And the children ...go to college ...and they become successful,
....and become.... a great member of society.
....But did you say.... like to look ahead.... into the future ....and say no,
....this is just gonna.... ruin everything... for me,... so,... I'm just gonna,...
.... you know, ...cut this embryo out, ...and it's nothing, ...it doesn't mean anything,
.... but I believe... that the, um,.... pro-, extreme pro-choicers say.... that it's not a life ...yet and,
....but I don't believe, ....I believe... it is a life,... it's not a human yet....
.... But it is, ...it is life, ....like every cell ...in your body's life,.... plants are life,
....you know..... So that's my opinion.
...(Luke: Yeah)

Vivian:

OK, ...Daisy.... Where do you stand?
.... Do you ...have a firm stand ...on either way?

Daisy:

....Well,... I'm definitely... pro-choice.... I believe... that abortion ...should be,
.... should be legal. ...But for ....different reasons.
Not because ....I don't believe... that a fetus is,
....urn, ...not a baby yet. ...I believe.... exactly the same thing.... that Brandan does,
....not because.... I believe... that a fetus..... is not a baby... at that point,
...I do believe ....it is a baby. ...Probably very soon.... after conception.
Um, I'm in agreement ...with Bow,... there....
....But, ....I, I believe ....it is a necessary evil ....of our society....
and that ...what we were discussing.... before sex education.
We've been... negligent and, ...um,.... therefore ....many women ...are falling pregnant
..... and don't have.... an option ...of course there ...are these women
.... that are career women ....and saying that it... won't fit ...in my life.
.... But if ....that woman is.... so selfish.... at that point.
....I would rather, .....there are ....so many children.... that are neglected,
.... in our societies ...today, ...I'd rather ....she get rid of it.... than have it,
.... because,... rather than ...seeing another child ...being brought up in a,
uh, a selfish home
(Vivian: Right)
.... with a selfish mother.
....But I do feel.... that if we go back... to the 1950s
....where women ....were having ....backyard abortions,
....sticking coat hangers up... themselves...
.... and damaging themselves ...for life ....so they couldn't.... have another child
....or women ....that are raped.... by their family,
....or strangers... on the street ...and have to... hate that child ...for their entire life.
...I don't think ...that's fair. ....I think ...the law... should be there.... to protect women,
....and I think it's ...a total feminist issue
..... And I'm enraged.... when I hear ....men in government ...talk about it.

Vivian:

....Well, there's.... a lot of details ....about ...each side,
.... you know,.... for example, ....I could just bring up... the fact, ...um,
.... lots of people.... like.... for women, ....lots of people think ....it's the women's choice,
....it is her body. ....No..., I could always say....
.... OK...., but there are.... so many people.... that wanna adopt children... but can't have children.
.... Why couldn't ....this person ...instead of get,... um, ....having the child ...
.....or you know,... and keeping it,.... why don't they have ....it wait the 8 months... or 10 months,
.... have the child ....and give it up.... for adoption ....to. the couples... who really, ...really want a child.
.... But then,... that person.... can also argue, ....hey,... that 8 to 10 months.... that's a whole year out of my life
....that's changing my body.... and that really does change.... my life.... in a sense.
.... And so maybe ....I don't wanna partake.... in something l....ike that.
.. And so.... that could be ....an argument there, .....and then here's ....another argument,
....a lot of people say
(Bow: ...One at a time, ...one at a time)
sure, ...ok..., but this is, ....this kinda goes along ...with that.
....What if the woman doesn't.... want that... and the man
...., there is always ...a man involved,... I mean,.... we always say... it's the woman's... body... but
...., is it the man's choices ....as well?
....And ....what if he does.... want the child...., and the woman doesn't.
...Let's attack... this one.

Daisy:

.....OK. ...I believe.... that if it's a man ...and a woman..
..... that are involved... in a mutual loving relationship ....
.....and they're living togethe....r and they have ....the means.... to have that child?
..... I believe.... in that case.... that the man ....has a fifty percent '.... say.
....' Um,.... if it was.... a casual one night affair, ...I don't think... he has a choice,
..... he was simply.... sleeping ....with the woman ....
....and they were mutually ....using each other... if they,... if you like,... I don't think... he has any say... in...
.....that woman ....because.... she had a one-night stand.... with him ....for nine months.... she has to ....bear his child.
.... That's absurd.
... (Vivian: But you guys)

Luke:

..... But ....what if he's saying.... he wants to support it..... and he's willing to ...go through ...with it?
.... It's up to ....the woman ...and to, ...to consider.
(Daisy: Yeah, it is up to her.)
.....But the man actually.... if he is a full a full, ...uh,...
.... like a full partner.... in the relationship ....has exactly 50%?
(Daisy:... I think ....that he ...does have same)
.... even though... it is the woman's ....body 50%,... exactly that?
...(Vivian: 50%? ....Would you like... it to be 40?)
(Vivian: I don't know...)

Luke:..

..... What ...would you do?.... If it was 50%... you couldn't... really dc) anything?

Daisy:

....You have to ....take it... to the court, ....in a court of the law.
(Bow: What should the law be?)
.... What should the law be?
(Bow: Yeah.)
....Well, .....i guess.... that they... have to take.
(Bow: What do you think?)
....What do I think?.... I guess every situation'....s gonna be different.... I mean ...that's the thing,
....I mean, ....if the woman ....could possibly.... lose her... entire career.
....Say she's ...in a country ...like Korea..... where you know,
..... I mean, ....some women are..... discriminated against.... if they're married... and have children.... in the work place.
.... Um, ....if it's going to ....discriminate.... against her career ....and she's got,
....she's got .....a great future.... ahead of her,...
.... then,... you know, ...I think.... we should be.... more thinking about.... the woman.
.... If it's, ...if it's likely.... that she ca....n have more children... in the future.

Luke:

....I'm surprised.... you gave the man... 50%,... that's... why I said it.

Luke:

That's very generous.

Vivian:

.... I also take.... into consideration ...that ....we're kind of thinking more along... the western side,
.... I don't know .....about Europe ....or up other countries
...., but in America ....a woman has six months.... maternal leave.
.....So you know,..... before she even shows ....she can.... take off.... and come back... after she's had the baby.
....In Korea, ....apparently, ....you don't have..... maternal leave,
.... you only I mean, ....you can only leave.... for one month,
....I'm not even sure, ....but you certainly.... don't have six months.

Daisy:

Two months.

Vivian:

Two Months..... Anyways but,.... either way,..... I mean, ...
....the situation ....is totally different.... that would put you
(Daisy: Right)
...totally put you back.... if you were ...in a different country.

Daisy:

....It would,.... and I think.... that's something.... to take.... into consideration,
.... but even.... in our country,..... I mean.... even though ...it's more accepted
.....and there's.... a lot of people that, ......that generally ....do support pro-choice.
.....You've gotta ...consider religion..... There are.... so many religious factions.
........ In every country, ....and me I grow up ....in a Catholic family
...... If my fathe....r heard me.... talk like this, .....he'd probably.... have a cow,
..... but these are my choices, .....but I'm not making my, ....my choice on, ...
......you know, .....a scientific fact or, ....or even a religious .....or emotional fact....
..... I see...... it as a necessity.... in our society.
..... And I do believe ....it's a feminist issue.

Luke:

.....Well. .....That's the idea ....here too. ....It's kind of ....in Korea.... or in Asia... it's a catch 22,
....because ....according to society ....you know ....you're not supposed to,
..... you're not supposed ...to fornicate..... But people do,.
..... because..... it's a natural .....they wanna have sex, ....some... you know,
.... some accidents happen, .....and they have a baby. .....But then... they make abortion illegal.
.... And you're not, ......and if you're pregnant out ...of wedlock,
....then you're look down ...on in society..... So,.... what are you supposed to do.... really in that case?
... (Vivian: Exactly)

Bow: .....They set up things here...., in these Confucian societies
, (Vivian: Sure)
....you have ...no choices really.

Daisy:

.... But, I ...do think... it's.... become a little too common.... as Luke was saying before,
.... there are some women out there.... that are using ....this as a form... of contraception,
.... which is.... just amoral.... you know,..... it's not acceptable.
.... And I think .....that we need to.... kind of ....get back to... educating people.... that this is not ok... and it's,
....not.., ...apparently.... I was told.... by a doctor.... that it's not good... for a woman.
.....The more a woman ....has an abortion,.... the less chance ....she has ....of falling pregnant again.

Vivian:

Right...., and having a healthy baby too,...... and it causes pro, ....problems ....for herself, too.

Daisy:

Yeah. ....So I think.... if we're.... gonna clamp down.... as a society ...on abortion.
....Not saying ...it's wrong ....that women still ....have these choices,
....but offer other al...
(Vivian: Alternatives)
.....alternatives ....and opportunities... for them. ...OK..... Say... to the career woman.
... Alright..... If you have this child..... these are the benefits..... that we can give you,
..... this is the help..... we can give you .....and finding..... the child.... a good home.
.....Um, ...You know ....with adoption ...and things like that.
..... Think about...... if the government ....wants to,.... you know, ...
.....move away..... from so many people ....having abortion,
.... then ....offer other alternatives... and options.

Vivian:

... The,.... the options certainly.... do have to be there,
.... but also there.... is the moral ....aspect you know,
.... which ....if you're doing it.... for contraceptive reasons
..... or because ....it was an accident.... and you really weren't careful ....or because.... you could have it, ...but you couldn't.
.... Anyways ....but we have to make..... that moral issue.... much more of a stronger point ...in society now
....and also,... I mean, .....if you're doing it.... just you could.... have the baby
.... but I just don't.... want to ...and this was just ....an accident.
....That should be .....like a public thing. ....People would..,.... it should be ....like a standard thing.......
...... that we think... that is not right, ....you know, .....I mean ....you should only do this,
..... in the case of,..... this is my personal opinion,..... but if you were raped or,
..... in extreme circumstances,....... if you're very young, .....and it really was an accident,
..... and you have ....no other options ....left to you,
..... I mean, ....then I think.... that should be.... an option for you.

Bow:

.....Um,..... this is kind of getting back to .....what we were talking about,
.....or I was talking about .....before with the titles of pro-choice ....or pro-life.
....But, um,..... have you seen the movie?..... What is it?.... If Walls Could Speak,
.....it is all about abortion?
(Vivian: Yes, If walls could talk)
....well, ....if walls could talk,.... yes. .....And in Boston,.... there's a lot of um, .....abortion clinics, ...
....and there's a lot of.... pro-lifers.... who stand outside.
.... There was a guy.... that ....close to my house,
.....an abortion clinic.... that was close.... to my house
.... and a guy ....went in there.... and killed one of the doctors.
.....He's under the title pro-life ....which is kind of a contradiction.... because he's taking a life
(Daisy: Exactly)
....He trying to say, ....but his excuse is.... that I'm trying to save.... many lives... by taking one,
.... But.... how does that work?.... you know,.... I don't ...understand that.

Vivian:

.....It's like a vigilante.... kind of instance, ....
.....and he is kind of contradicting himself....
..... but he's saying..... I'll save a majority versus one.
..... (Daisy: ...Right, ...so many babies)

Bow:

.....I know ....what he's saying but,.... I mean...., those women are gonna,
....have gone through the decision.
..... The hard task of ...making a decision.... to go there,.... are not gonna... stop there.

Daisy:

.... Right. ......What is fascinating.... to me is, ....that here,... there is ....so much talk.
.....People's protesting ....outside abortion clinics today.
....But abortion has been around.... for centuries, ....and it wasn't.... performed... by a doctor,
.... it was, ....basically, ....you know, ....you know, ....you go to your local... herb doctor ...or witch doctor,
.....and you can, ....an abortion.... can be performed ....with simple herbs like ...ginger ...and parsley.
.....And this has been going on.... for centuries. ....The African, ....a lot of tribes... in Africa,
.....they believe, ....that it is solely ....up to the woman..... as the giver of life...
..... and she is..... the representation of god .....and if she.... falls pregnant.... then it is her decision ....whether ....she brings ....that life forth.
.....They believe.... that if that life ....is not wanted ....then..... why should it ...be brought... into the world,
it should brought.... into the world.... when it's loved.
..... And they've been ....using these herbs for,.... for uh, ....centuries,....
............ to perform abortions, .....so it's not a modern day issue
...... It's not something,.... you know,... in other cultures.... it is accepted ...within their religions...
...... So you know,..... I, I've, .....I kind of don't understand.... why people are,
.....maybe.... because.... it's just public now. ....I don't get it.

sunyuting1 2008-06-11 23:06
分拆语音

3. Abortion and Sexual EducationB1 的29分6秒到43分38.36秒的语音文本



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SIDE B
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Vivian:

OK. Let's, ....let's get back to.... that in a little,..... in a minute here
..... We can talk about..... the details. ....OK, Daisy. ....Do you wanna ...tell us... where you stand?

Daisy:

OK. Well, .....actually .....I just wanna to ....ask Bow a question. ....Um, I just wanna to... ask him...
. if you do.... have like obviously.... I understand......
what you're saying.... and probably.... pretty much most peoples' views.... are the same,
....but how.... could you make a law.... to make a standard ....for that type of thing,
....how could you say:.... it's ok for this person.... to have an abortion
...but it's not ok.... for a woman ....in her thirties.... who's not married,
...... but has the financial ability to.... have a child?

Vivian:

There's a wide grey area.

Bow:

.....Yeah,... I don't know,... it's, I don't, .....I'm not a law maker,
.....I don't know.... that is still uh, just, uh, ....just my opinion. ....That's... what I think,
(Vivian: Exactly)
.... and I...., it should b....e talked about more.
.....People ....that do make laws ....and people ....that do make theirs,
....you know, ....who have these problems.... and these situations ...come up,
....and we should be... talked about.

Luke:

....But you're basically... pro-choice, ....but you don't think ....you don't feel that,
.... that it should be...... used as a form of..... birth-contro....l for example.
... (Vivian: ....It shouldn't b...e abused.)

Bow:

..... If you have to.... label it, ....but I think, ....you know.... within the label of ...pro- choice
....or extreme... pro-choice people,.... and there are.... extreme ...pro-life.
.... But I'm more you know,..... in the middle of both of those.

Luke:

....Of course,.... I would say.... the same.... I would say ....that I'm definitely ...pro- choice,
....but I think that... yeah, ....abortion is not something... that you just,... you just,..
.... sort of do.... for the heck of it.... But I don't think,... I don't think ...that's any human,
....in a person's nature, ....I mean,.... if someone's gonna,.... gonna have a child,
....a woman is, ...obviously,.... is gonna have the child
....., there's gonna b...e some kind of.... attachment to,
..... and some kind of like... psychological.... factor there.
.......That doesn't make it ....an easy decision ...in any, ....in any situation.
.... I think ....if it's a repeated thing,... if it's,... it happens continually,
....there's a obviously problem there ....and I don't know, ....it's hard to.... regulate that
(Bow: Yeah)
.....but I also,.... I don't think... that someone .....who's definitely.... not ready,
.... and not interested.... in raising a child ...and isn't gonna give ...a 100%,
....or isn't just like, ....mentally ....and emotionally prepared.... for that, f
....or that to happen. ...I don't know.... if it's ...if it's ...a wise move... and if there not,...
..... if they're not ....fully committed to it. ....That's the first sign ...that it's, uh, ...no, shouldn't do it,
.....shouldn't be done, ....shouldn't happen,.... do the abortion,.... give the child, ...
.....like a fair shot ....a having a real life... kind of thing.

Vivian:

.....So both ....you guys are.... kind of.... in the pro-choice section ....but not very,
..... you know,
...(Daisy: Pro-life) right.

Bow:.... I don't think.... for the extreme.... pro-choice people ....who say like, uh,
..... it's gonna ruin my career ...and this kind of thing
...., if that person ....has confidence.... in themselves,
....and I believe.... that they could rise above that,..... they could.... take care of a child,
....and then, .....I think once that ....they started to.... raise the child.... and they could,
....people do it all ...the time,... they have careers.... and they raise children,
....they become successful..... And the children ....go to college ...and they become successful,
..... and become ....a great member of society....
But did you say like... to look ahead... into the future ...and say.
. no, ...this is just gonna ruin everything ...for me, so,
I'm just gonna..., you know,... cut this embryo out, ...and it's nothing,... it doesn't mean anything,
.... but I believe... that the, um,... pro-, extreme... pro-choicers say
.....that it's not a life yet and, .....but I don't believe, ....I believe ...it is a life,... it's not a human yet.
....But it is, ...it is life,.... like every cell i...n your body's life,
.....plants are life, ...you know.... So that's ...my opinion.
... (Luke: Yeah)

Vivian:

OK, Daisy. ...Where do you stand?..... Do you have.... a firm stand ....on either way?

Daisy:

Well,.... I'm definitely pro-choice.... I believe ....that abortion should be,
....should be legal. ....But.... for different reasons..... Not because ...
....I don't believe... that a fetus is, urn, ...not a baby yet.....
.... I believe... exactly the same thing.... that Brandan does,
.... not because.... I believe... that a fetus ....is not a baby at that point,
....I do believe ...it is a baby.... Probably... very soon.... after conception.
....Um, ....I'm in agreement ....with Bow,.... there.....
.....But,... I, I believe..... it is a necessary evil ....of our society
....and that..... what we were discussing.... before sex education.
.... We've been negligent and, ....um,.... therefore ...many women ...are falling pregnant ..
.....and don't have an option ...of cours....e there are these women....
that are career women.... and saying ...that it won't fit in my life.....
.... But if that woman.... is so selfish ...at that point. ....I would rather,
...there are ....so many children.... that are neglected,.... in our societies today,..
.. I'd rather she get rid of it than have it,...
..... because,.... rather than.... seeing another child being brought up in a, ....uh, a selfish home
..(Vivian: Right)
....with a selfish mother..... But I do feel.... that ....if we go bac...k to the 1950s
.....where women.... were having backyard abortions,
....sticking coat hangers up themselves ....and damaging themselves... for life
....so they couldn't have another child ....or women ....that are raped ...by their family,
.... or strangers ....on the street ...and have to ...hate that child ....for their entire life
...... I don't think that's fair. ....I think the law.... should be ....there to protect women,
....and I think..... it's a total feminist issue......
.... And I'm enraged ....when I hear men... in government.... talk about it.

Vivian:

....Well, there's a lot of details ...about each side, ...you know, ....for example...
...., I could just bring up the fact,.... um, lots of people like.. for women,
....lots of people think ....it's the women's choice...., it is her body
..... No, I could always say.... OK, .....but there are ...so many people ....that wanna adopt children
..... but can't have children..... Why couldn't ....this person instead of get,
.....um, having the child o...r you know, ...and keeping it, ...
.....why don't ....they have it ....wait the 8 months.... or 10 months,
.... have the child.... and give it up... for adoption.... to the couples ...who really,
.... really want a child. ...But then,.... that person... can also argue,
.....hey,.... that 8 to 10 month...s that's a... whole year out of my life
..... that's changing my body ....and that really ....does change my life... in a sense.
....And so maybe.... I don't wanna partake.... in something.. like that.
.... And so that could be ...an argument there,.... and then here's another argument
....., a lot of people say
...(Bow: One at a time, one at a time
...) sure, ....ok,... but this is..., this kinda goes along ...with that.
.....What if the woman ....doesn't want.... that ...and the man,
..... there is always a man involved,... I mean,.... we always say.... it's the woman's body but,
.....is it the man's choices as well?.... And.... what if he does... want the child,
.....and the woman... doesn't. ...Let's attack this one.

Daisy:

....OK. I believe.... that if it's a man ....and a woman ....that are involved ....in a mutual loving relationship
.....and they're living together.... and they have the means... to have that child?
.... I believe ....in that case.... that the man ....has a fifty percent ' say.'.....
.....Um, if it was a casual one night affair,.... I don't think ...he has a choice,
...... he was simply sleeping .....with the woman ....and they were mutually.... using each other
.... if they..., if you like...., I don't think.... he has any say in.......
...... that woman ....because she had.... a one-night stand ....with him.... for nine months
..... she has to bear his child. ...That's absurd.
(Vivian: But you guys)

Luke:

.....But what if he's saying..... he wants to.... support it ....
....and he's willing to.... go through with it?..... It's up to... the woman... and to,... to consider
...... (Daisy: Yeah, it is up to her.)
...... But the man actually.... if he is a full a full, uh,
......like a full partner..... in the relationship..... has exactly 50%?
....(Daisy: I think that he does have same)
.....even though.... it is the woman's body 50%,... exactly that?
.....(Vivian: 50%? ....Would you ....like it to be 40?)
....(Vivian: I don't know...)

Luke:

.....What would you do?.... If it was 50%... you couldn't really dc)
anything?

Daisy:

......You have to.... take it to the court, ....in a court of the law.
..... (Bow: What should the law be?)
..... What should the law be?.... (Bow: Yeah.)
..... Well, ....i guess ...that they have to ..take.
.(Bow: What do you think?)
....What do I think?.... I guess..... every situation's gonna be.... different ...I mean... that's the thing,
....I mean, ....if the woman.... could possibly lose her entire career.
.....Say she's.... in a country like Korea ....where you know,
.... I mean, .....some women are discriminated against ...
.......if they're married.... and have children.... in the work place
....... Um,.... if it's going to discriminate against her career.... and she's got,
...... she's got a great future ....ahead of her..., then, y....ou know,
..... I think we should be ....more thinking ....about the woman.
..... If it's,..... if it's likely that.... she can have ....more children... in the future.

Luke:

....I'm surprised ....you gave the man ...50%, ...that's why I said it.

Luke:

...That's very generous.

Vivian:

...... I also take.... into consideration.... that we're kind of thinking ....more along the western side,
.... I don't know about.... Europe.... or up other countries,
.....but in America a woman.... has six months maternal leave.
....So you know,..... before she even shows ....she can take off ....and come back
.....after she's had the baby.... In Korea, ....apparently...., you don't have maternal leave,
..... you only ....I mean...., you can only leave... for one month,
...... I'm not even sure, .....but you certainly ....don't have six months.

Daisy:

.Two months.

Vivian:

....Two Months. ....Anyways but, ....either way,.... I mean, ....the situation..... is totally different ....that would put you
..(Daisy: Right)
..... totally put you bac....k if you were ...in a different country.

Daisy:

....It would, ....and I think .....that's something.... to take into consideration,
..... but even in our country, ...I mean even though ....it's more.... accepted
.....and there's a lot of people that,..... that generally .....do support ....pro-choice
...... You've gotta consider religion...... There are .....so many religious factions
....... In every country, ....and me... I grow up ....in a Catholic family.
.....If my father ....heard me talk like this,.... he'd probably... have a cow,
..... but these are my choices,.... but I'm not making my,.... my choice on, ...you know,...
..... a scientific fact or, ....or even a religious ....or emotional fact. ....
.....I see it as a necessity ....in our society.
..... And I do believe ....it's a feminist issue.

Luke:

..... Well..... That's the idea here too...... It's kind of ....in Korea ...or in Asia ...it's a catch 22,
...... because according to.... society ....you know.... you're not supposed to,
..... you're not supposed to ...fornicate..... But people do,
...... because it's a natural.... they wanna have sex,.... some you know, ...
.....some accidents happen, ....and they have a baby. ...
........But then they make abortion illegal. ....And you're not,.... and if you're pregnant ...out of wedlock,
.....then you're look down on... in society.
.....So, what are you supposed to do ....really in that case?
...(Vivian: Exactly)

Bow:
.....They set up things here, ....in these Confucian societies,.
... (Vivian: Sure)
...you have no choices really.

Daisy:

.....But,.... I do think ....it's become a little too common.... as Luke was... saying before,
.....there are ....some women out there.... that are using.... this as a form of contraception,
......which is just amoral ...you know,.... it's not acceptable.
.....And I think that ....we need to.... kind of get ....back to educating people ....that this is not ok and it's,
.....not.., apparently.... I was told.... by a doctor .....that it's not good f...or a woman.
.... The more a woman ....has an abortion,
..... the less chance ....she has... of falling pregnant again.

Vivian:

.....Right, and having a healthy baby too....., and it causes pro..., problems... for herself, too.

Daisy:

....Yeah..... So I think.... if we're gonna clamp down ....as a society ...on abortion.
.... Not saying it's wrong..... that women still have these choices,
.....but offer other al...
... (Vivian: Alternatives)
.....alternatives .......and opportunities ....for them.
..... OK. ....Say to the career woman.... Alright...
..... If you have ....this child these are.... the benefits.... that we can give you,
.....this is the help ....we can give you.... and finding the child a good home.
.... Um, ....You know ....with adoption ....and things like that.
..... Think about.... if the government wants to,... you know,
.....move away .....from so many people ....having abortion,
.....then offer other alternatives ....and options.

Vivian:

.....The, the options certainly do have to be there,
...... but also there is the moral ....aspect you know,
........which if you're doing it..... for contraceptive reasons
....or because.... it was an accident.... and you really weren't careful
.....or because you could have it, ....but you couldn't.
...... Anyways.... but we have to make t......hat moral issue....
....... much more of a stronger point .....in society now and also,
.....I mean, ....if you're doing it just.... you could have the baby
...... but I just don't want to .....and this was just an accident.
...... That should be like ....a public thing.... People would..,..
..... it should be .....like a standard thing..... that we think ....that is not right,
.... you know, ....I mean..... you should only do this,.... in the case of,
.... this is my personal opinion,..... but if you were raped or, .....in extreme circumstances,
....if you're very young, ....and it really was an accident, ...
......and you have ....no other options... left to you,
....I mean, ...then I think..... that should be... an option... for you.

Bow:

.....Um, this is kind of getting.... back to ....what we were talking about,
.....or I was talking about .....before ....with the titles of pro-choice.... or pro-life.
....But, um, .....have you seen the movie? ....What is it?.... If Walls Could Speak,..
..... it is all about abortion?
.... (Vivian: Yes...., If walls could talk)
..... well, if walls could talk, ....yes. ....And in Boston,.... there's a lot of um,... abortion clinics,
.... and there's a lot of ....pro-lifers.... who stand outside.
...... There was a guy ....that close to my house,.... an abortion clinic
.....that was close to ...my house ....and a guy .....went in there...
.... and killed one of the doctors. .....He's under the title pro-life ....
.....which is kind of a contradiction..... because he's taking a life
...(Daisy: Exactly)
....He trying to say, ....but his excuse.... is that ....I'm trying to .save... many lives... by taking one,
......But how does that work?.... you know,.... I don't understand that.

Vivian:

.....It's like..... a vigilante kind of instance,..... and he is kind of contradicting himself
..... but he's saying..... I.'ll save a majority versus one.
(Daisy: Right, so many babies)

Bow:

... I know.... what he's saying but, ....I mean,.... those women are gonna,
..... have gone through the decision..... The hard task of making a decision... to go there,
....are not gonna stop there.

Daisy:

....Right. ....What is fascinating to me is, ....that here,.... there is so much talk....
.... People's protesting outside abortion clinics today.
..... But abortion has been around.... for centuries, ....and it wasn't performed ...by a doctor,
.....it was, basically, ....you know, ...you know, ....you go to your local herb doctor... or witch doctor,
.... and you can,.... an abortion.... can be performed ....with simple herbs like ginger... and parsley.
..... And this has been ...going on... for centuries. ...The African,.... a lot of tribes in Africa, t
......hey believe,..... that it is solely up.... to the woman as the giver of life
.....and she is the representation of god..... and if she falls pregnant ....then it is her decision
.... whether she brings t...hat life forth. ....They believe.... that if that life.... is not wanted... then why should it be brought ...into the world,
..... it should .....brought into the world.... when it's loved.
.....And they've been using these herbs for,..... for uh, ....centuries...., to perform abortions,
.... so it's not a modern day issue..... It's not something, .
...you know, ....in other cultures it is accepted within their religions.
.... So you know,.... I, I've...., I kind of don't understand... why people are,...
..maybe ...because ...it's just public now..... I don't get it.


sunyuting1 2008-06-12 19:56
分拆语音

4. Abortion and Sexual Education  B1 的43分38.36秒到58分43秒结束的语音文本


Bow:

That makes it ....a very easy decision...... for the man
...... who had impregnated the woman
(Daisy: Right)
... in that culture.
(Daisy: Right)
.... If it's up to her...... OK. You do it, .....he doesn't have to pay.... for anything
......and he doesn't have to... have the guilt.

Daisy:

.......He doesn't .....have to.... go out .....and hunt goats.... or something.

Vivian:

.... OK, so I think ....the moral issue ....should be,..... really emphasized.
I mean.... first of all,...... men should...... take responsibility,
....it's not a hit.... and go kind of thing, .....you know, ....
.....you should ....stick around even..... if you weren't involved,
..... until the process.... is over,.... and through.... with whether.... it's carrying it out... to the end,
.....or watching it through..... until she has the baby...... And I should al..
....... always emphasize adoption being,..... you know, .....an option.
.(Daisy: An option.)
.....You know, ......if all else fails,..... hey, .....you know, ....
.....I honestly think .....if that would happen to me,...... adoption, ....you know,
...... I couldn't.... find other options ...for myself,
..... I would always consider adoption.... the last resort, ...you know.

Vivian:

Abortion, .....the last resort?

Daisy:

.....No. Adoption. ....I mean..... that should be something.... that's there.
.....You know, .....if I can't keep this baby ....or if we can't raise it together .....or something.
.....My parents.... couldn't raise it...... That should.... always be.

Luke:

....I do agree that, .....that bringing a child to term..... and seeking out that route,
..... is the noble thing to do,
(Vivian: Sure)
.....but I just don't think ......everybody is up to it. .....And if they're not up to it,... I mean,
(Vivian: Exactly)
.....If they are like way ....to stressed and.....
way to freaked out.... and they're going through this turmoil.
..... I think .....a lot of the formative .....stuff that goes into baby's ....character,
..... probably happens ....in the womb.... before it's even popped up.

Vivian:

......You know.... they're always talking about.... people ....who are raped ...or in,
you know, ....abused situations.... where it was a very tra...
(Luke: traumatic)
... traumatic event..... Event? ....Ok..... Incident, ....and so maybe..... they don't even want this at all.

Bow:

Not always though, .....a friend of my grandmother's, ....I remember this story,... when I was young,
she, uh,.... I met her. ....She had a really great personality,
.....I always thought ....of her as a funny lady..... She was travelling ....in the Philippines, a
.....nd was raped at, ...at night, ....she had no idea.... who was.... and she had the baby,
..... and I remember the kid...... And the kid was just like her, ....
.....she raised the kid. ....And the kid was very happy..... I believed it ...at that time,
....so it just depends on ....you know, ....who raises the kid..... I suppose
(Daisy: No, Yeah) ...

Vivian: .

....We're talking about..... the person themselves....not the baby too,
....I mean, .....it does depend ....on the person. ....You know, .....you could be... a very young girl,
.....and have been raped, ....I mean,..... this may be traumatic for you.
.....Not only that ....but there are..... also health reasons,
.....why like young children, .....if your body ....is not fully developed,
.....you cannot carry a baby t....o term....... It's dangerous ....to your body.
......And so a lot of doctors .....make that argument that,
.....you know, ......if your body has not .....come to age yet,
..... or it's not .....fully developed .....you're not.... up to.... bearing a baby yet.

Daisy:

.....Well,.... not just that, ....I mean, .....you know, .....I mean, ....you've got a 17-year-old kid
..... who's promiscuous.... and is pregnant, ....and you're going to..... leave it up to..... her to take care of her body ....for nine months?
....She could be drinking, .....(Vivian: Sure) .....she could be having more,
.... you know, ....sex...... She could be having, .....taking drugs ....she you never know.
..... But the point that Bow made about his....., the story about ....his grandmother ...I mean,
....in an ideal society. .....(Bow: Grandmother's friend.)..... Ah! Sorry..... In an ideal society,...
.... we'd all be doing that, ....but it's not an ideal society.
.....And it's up to ....us to provide other options .....or I think ....the only way .....we're gonna solve this problem is ....by educating our children.
... (Luke: Yeah).... Letting them know.... that of course yes, ....abortion exists.
....Because if we, ....if we make it illegal again ....we're gonna have women ....hurting themselves.
.... And there's gonna be.... butchers,..... you know in,.... uh, ...in abortion clinics.
.....You know,.... just cutting these women up ....and it is just gonna go back.
..... It'll be chaos..... (Bow: ....Knowledge is power) .....So. ...It is. So, ...let's treat our kid ....let's teach our kids,
.... um,..... so that this doesn't happen.... so we're not having... them pregnant,
..... they are not getting.... the diseases, .....and this doesn't become, ....even become an issue.

Luke:

.....They have to.... have all of the options available ....to them.
.....but it has to start .....at the very foundations ....of the education system again.
(Daisy: Yes, yes.).... It's like, ....and you have to, ....people have to impress of course.
..... I think it’s uh...., it's human nature you..... want to see if it's,
..... something like ....that happens, .....you wanna see it ....come to term,
....you wanna see a new life brought ....into the world. ....That's the human,
.....that's the basic..... fundamental ....human impulse..... It's like procreate.
.....That's the most beautiful thing. ....It doesn't work ....for everybody.
..... It doesn't,.... it doesn't end happily.... in every situation.
..... So for that reason.... I think it.... has to be an option.
..... But ultimately ....I disagree with, .....with doing it..... It's an,.... it's an,
.... (Daisy: Abortion).... it's a shitty thing.... that you have to go through
..... I'm sure..... I'll never experience it,.... but women.... I know ....who've done it, ...it's been like,
....you know, ....the hardest dec..,..... the hardest decision.... they've ever had to make ....to go actually through with it.

Daisy:
....

....But then,..... the problem is.... that today, ....you know,....
...... actually I have a friend..... in Australia .....and she's had five abortions.... and she's 28.
(Luke: Yeah) .....and she is using it ....as a form of contraception.
.....And she said .....I just had my fifth abortion.... when I last went home,
....and I said to her.... "Do you know ......like know ....about the pill,"
..... or you know .....other forms of contraception...... And she said,... yeah but if I...., if I take the pill,
....you know, ....I'm gonna gain weight, ....and this is just like,..... she's, ....
......just become .....such a superficial person....
......where she can.... check herself .....in her lunch break, ....break into an abortion clinic,
...... have an abortion, ....come out .....and go back to work.... and has no emotional attachment whatsoever.

Vivian:

.....See? In that situation, .....it is extreme.
(Vivian: Extreme .....and it's unexceptable,..... it's amoral,.... you know)
.....Well, obviously,.... we have a group of people here,.... that..,
.... you know .....we don't have any extreme people,
.....you know, .....we're not extremely..... pro-choice.... or pro-life.
....But .....how about we attack..... this question?
....We obviously are ....kind of pro-life..... but also pro-choice,
..... for the extreme .....pro-choice people ...of course... they wanna say...
, hey, ....from day one, ....from day one.... the child is alive ....and you can't kill it ....after that day.
.... Right? ....(Daisy: Pro-life people).... Right. ....So I mean.... where exactly ....in your opinion is,
.... does life begin? ....Because..... in America.... I think... for most states,
....you know, ....abortion is legal..... or not, ....uh,.... or illegal ....in states depending on,
....it's their decision. ...But, um, ...usually ....I think... it's two months... is the...
.... (Daisy: You can have an, ....you can have an abortion up to your ....first trimester)
....Right. ....Somewhere around there......
.... So in your personal opinions ....how far can you take it ....or you shouldn't ....take it at all?

Bow:

I already answered that ....earlier I said that I ....believe it's right.... from the beginning even
.....before the egg.... and the sperm meet..... It's life in,... everything.
...(Vivian: Do you think?) ....Yeah,... I believe that....
. (Vivian: You too..., Luke?.... How about you Daisy?)

Daisy:

....Yeah, ....well, ...you know, ....I believe that... I said that,
.... you know, ....shortly ....after conception.... I believe ...it's becoming a child,
....a baby, ...a human..... But I don't believe... that it's a life .....until it's connected
..... with the mother.... and mother.... has connected with it.
..... And I believe.... that ....when the woman makes.... that decision....
.... that I'm going to ....have this child ....and I'm going to.... love this child
..... or I'm going to carry this child, ....so it'll be loved.... by someone else.... then it's a life
....and then... it's a life.... that it's important.... It's important.

Luke:

.... It's becomes,.... I just think... it's a life... from the beginning
.....but as it becomes more complex,.... it's a trickier decision.
..... It's sorta like .....how you feel bad ...about like,
..... uh, killing a bird, ....but you don't feel bad about .....squashing a bug
...... It's all life,... you don't feel bad about... plucking a dandelion.
..... It's just higher things.... that we see as being ....more close to ....us are harder... for us to try to... snuff out.
..... And as a child develops ....and grows ...and becomes .....more like us ...with our own like genetic material.
...I think that's ....when it really starts... to become uh,... like you.

Vivian:

.....The reason .....why I ask this question.... is because,... sure....
.... when we look at it... that way it's,
....it's an,.... a simple answer, ....hey, ...you know,...
.... it's, ....it's life... from the beginning ..or what not.
.... But.... what if we made ....that situation ...more complicated,
....what if it was your daughter,... Bow, ...
....and she was raped.... by some stranger ..on the street and,
....listen,... listen,.... and she is only a teenager,...
..... she's young,.... she was raped, ......she doesn't know
....who the hell this person was,
..... you know,.... and.... what if she is.... put in that situation,...
..... what if she didn't know.... she was pregnant, ...hey?
.... Oh! And wait...., what if she's ....a lot of people, ....no,
.....a lot of people ....don't show until ....what they're third ....or fourth months.
....Am I right, ...Daisy?... I mean...., what if she found out ....after the first trimester,
..... after a certain point..... where a lot of people.... don't agree,
.....hey,.... after this point you shouldn't ....have it.
.....But what if the situation.... is totally .... she's too young,
....she's,.... you know,.... emotionally upset,..... and she cannot accept this.
.....What if she..... made the choice.... that she doesn't ....want it.
....How would you... feel about that?

Bow:

.....Now? (Vivian: Yeah) ....Well, ....that's the thing I'm the Dad of this person.
.... You're a woman..... What if it was you? ....What would you do? .
......I don't, ...I don't know... what I will do.

Vivian:

.... Yeah, OK..... What if it was your partner, ....
.....and what if it is your female counterpart.
.....Then it's your choice together, right?

Bow:
.
.....Yeah,... I don't know ....what I would do.
..... What would you do? ....If it was you?

Vivian:

....But see that's ....what I'm asking..... When you simply say, ....when is,
.....when does life begin,.... and how far can you take it,....
..... you guys earlier said... from day one.
.....But then when you complicate the situation.... you really can't give an answer.

Daisy:

....Well, you can..... Because.... the law says.... after your first trimester
....... you cannot legally have an abortion, ....and I,.... I would be pretty.., uh...

Vivian:

......But not in all.... countries.

Daisy:

....Well, ....almost all ....of them.

Vivian:

....But. ....Let's say that ....wasn't true,... that's,.... what it is the whole.

Daisy:

.....Say that wasn't true?

Vivian:

..... No, no, no...... I'm saying the... whole issue,
.....is they're still arguing ....where does life begin,
.... where does it end, .....whether to make this legal.... or not.
..... I mean..... that's ....what I'm asking.
...... If the situation..... was complicated like that.....
...... I mean,..... it was your own daughter, ......or your own mate
....., I mean,.... could you say?

Luke:

.....Once they hit elementary school,.... it's too late to abort.

Vivian:

.....Yeah, ...I think so too.

Daisy:

... Yeah, ......definitely.... I don't know, ....I mean.... that's a tough,
.....you know,.... I mean,..... that's basically .....the scientific evidence
..... that most pro-lifers ....are arguing with..... with pro-choicers.
..... And you know,.... I just,... the scientific information,
......for me it's more of uh,.... a spiritual thing.
.......I think ...that it is wrong .....to just use..... abortion as contraception.... which we've all said.
..... But.... I do believe .....that it is a connection...
...... that,...... that connection makes life, .....our connection ....with each other,
......our relationships.... with each other,
..... and my future relationship ....with my child..... when I have a child
..... I know ....I'm pregnant ...and ....when I accept that....
..... and I'm already loving ....that child ....and bringing it into life,
..... that's when the connection ....for me would be
...... And I think .....most women.... feel that way.

Luke:

.....And I think it's easy to.... talk about, ....talk about, ....
....you know,.... when you're in a vacuum ....and saying, ....this is the right thing,
....and I'm morally like this,..... and I believe in this thing.
.....But, uh, ...yeah,.... unless you have experienced.... all the emotions ....that come with it.
.....And the actual ....going through ...with it. ....Who knows... what you're gonna do?
....(Daisy: Exactly) ....I mean,.... you don't know ....what you think.
..... It's easy t....o like take ....this hypothetical situation,
.... (Daisy: Sure).... and say,.... well you know,..... after thinking through it and stuff,
.....and go through all this pedantic.... sort of B.S
...... But I mean yeah, ....doing it is,.... actually.... where you're gonna find your answer
..... and being put in ....that situation.... you can't rationalize that.

Bow:

......Well, that's why it is, .....what it is today..... Everything's messed up,.... because everybody,
.....not everybody has gone through it.....
...... So we have these opinions .....which we think..... this could be .....a basic foundation
......but people will still .....from now ....until the end of time.... they will still um,
.....keep talking about this,.... (Daisy: Sure)
.....and keep going through the same situations.... over and over again.
.....You just keep your opinions,.... you know,
.... like what you think .....and you try to do .....but you hope of course.... a situation like that
..... would not happen. .....But if it does arise.... then.... you try to deal with i....t as it comes.

Daisy:

.....Sure,.... that's fine. ....These people in the government
....(Luke: Speaking on your behalf of course)
..... are going to make decisions .....about my future.... and my body,...
.... and I wanna have a say in that...... I'm not impressed....
..... when conservative ....Rush Limbaugh ....or whoever else it..... happens to be... in government ....at the time.
......Would stand up there .....and tell me ....what rights ....I have as a woman,
.....and what ...I can do... with my body,.... I'm offended.

Bow:


......But there are.... also republican..... or conservative women.... in congress
..... who're voting.... for these laws too.

Daisy:

....Yes, there are. ....But they have a right ....to talk about that.
..... Because they are women, ...I accept that.
....But I don't,.... I, I,.... draw the line.... when I've got a bunch full of
.....white male conservatives .....discussing my future .....and other women's future.

Vivian:

....Right...... I agree with that, ....but I do believe, ....
....I'm sorry .....to go against all the females.... out there.
.....But I do believe.... they d....o have a word ...in there,..
..... because, ...um, ....a very small word. ....I'm not saying... a big word.

Luke:

.....I think for a woman.... in a situation .....where it wasn't uh,
.....a mutually .....mutual relationship ....this has happened,
.....an experience ....to people... I know.
.....Um,... not,.... not a close situation, ...
......all of a sudden a pregnancy.... came up.... unexpectedly ...the man was,
.....I want no part of this,..... and the woman was like .....and don't sweat it,
.... I don't want to.... make you a part of it. ...That's fine.... If you're,
.....if you're interested ....in pursuing it further ....than go ahead but,
......I'm choosing to go... go ahead .....with this anyway.
..... And I think .....the guy eventually sort of just came around ....to the idea.
..... He wanted to be ....a part of it... like she was gonna go through ....with it anyways.
..... She was like.... I'll find a way,... I\m really gonna do this,
...... I'm gonna go ahead .....and I'm gonna do it.
......And then she came, .....and then the guy was just sort of like uh,
...... she's doing it without me.
.....That's half my kid, man.

Bow:

.....Actually, ....you know, .....I think that happens.... in a lot of cases,....
...... um, ....one partner ....makes the decision ....and it's like....
...... somebody is waiting ....for the other one to say....., yes, we can do this.
...... And then once you get ....that consensus,.....
....... then ....you go ahead ....and then you find out .....what child rearing is,
......child bearing ....and child rearing ....and it turns out ....to be a very rewarding .....experience.
..... Exactly. ...Thank you.

Luke:

A rewarding experience.

Vivian:

...... I just wanna touch on..... what that just reminded me of...
.... was. What if the woman were to.... go ahead....
..... and consent to ....this and say ....that she..... wanted the baby
..... and there was the male ....who didn't ....want anything... to do with it.
..... Doesn't he have something to say,.... when he says....
..... I don't want my child being born...... What about.... that aspect of this story, no?

Bow,

.... Daisy: No.

Vivian: No?

Luke:

I don't think ...so,... I don't think.... I'd feel in a place.... that I've ever... tell a woman,
.....you have to ....take that child's life,.... if she felt, ....she felt,....
..... if she felt.... that she was ....good enough to do it ....and she was up... for the job,
..... no one else .....would be more qualified ...than her.

Vivian:

....OK..... Let's wrap up ....with maybe ...a comment.... from each of us.
..... How do you feel over all.... and maybe then, ....some thoughts?

Bow:
..
.... Um,..... I think Daisy...... brought up a really..... pertinent point.... which was,
.....which can kind of almost ....sum up everything.... which is that ....education is the key point.
.... (Vivian: Definitely)..... And,... uh,..... educate people,....
...... and let them know .....what's going on ...as much ....as you can,
....... put more money... into the schools.... for that purpose ...and uh...

Vivian:

.... And the parents ....should get involved, too..... It's not just schools,
(Luke: Talk to your kids, to your kids)
......don't make it ....just the schools' ....or governments' ...responsibility.

Daisy:

.... Hopefully, ....you know, ....if we are able to do that,.... if we are talking to our children
....., and we are teaching them.... in schools,
.......getting them as much.... information as possible,
......and trusting ....their judgment, .....maybe they won't even get.... to the situation
......where they'll have to.... think about abortion.
..... But, ...you know,.... we've got to do something.

Vivian:

......And sadly enough .....if you were.... put in that situation,
.... this is my personal opinion,... but I think.... each situation..... is different regardless
..... if it's pregnancy, ....or violence,... or what not.
.....You have to ....kind of take it.... for each circumstance
.......(Daisy: Right)
....on its own. ....We can't just ....judge everything.

Daisy:

....There is no.... black ...and white.

sunyuting1 2008-06-12 22:03
《听说大突破》里面隐藏的"弦":
练习结束以后看看正的文本，理解了就有了英语思维的冲动，一边看，一边想，一边想说的感觉就有了。
想说什么？想向文本那样的碎句子，那种边想边说的句子，那样的思维方式，你不能流利的说长句子，但是一定可以将长句子破开说这样的碎句子，说这样带有思维过程的句子，说这种依靠连接词连接短句子变成长句子的口语，你甚至只要看着连贯的任何书面语音的文章够能够象这个磁带的语气一样来说口语。
看看整个《听说大突破》反复就是那么几个用于连接思维过程的坏毛病、废话，原来这些是说口语的关键。实际上这些连接词，远远不如《你好美国》来的专业、系列和富有变化，特别是高级篇的变化更频繁。这样在听着磁带熟悉了口语结构的情况下，你就会就常在前面可以截住，产生不要说了，我来提你说的感觉。
特别是那些婆婆妈妈、翻翻答答的语言，说了好多才说清楚一个意思，所以尽管语言说话速度很快，但是远远不如思维的速度更快，而且一个意思用很多表达方式的单词词组短语来表达，所以只要适应了这种说话方式，对方也没有不能理解的，所以着才使得中间经常发生他人插嘴的情节，这样就容易交流了，目的也就达到了。
好了，说口语就将书面语言分拆成碎句子，而理解这些碎句子反而是连接成长句子，过滤掉其中的废话，变成书面语言。这样书面语言和口语之间就可以任意进行变换了。


sunyuting1 2008-06-12 22:25
对于口语里面的语言，容易出现的问题是：
一个一个短句子都能力理解，但是说了好长时间却不知道说的所以然。
所以压码连环重复几个短句子变为一个 长句子就非常重要，而且只重复一边还不好，需要多重压码长句子，就是看着频谱图将一串串的频谱图的语音，至少重复压码两次，才比较容易理解和记忆，理解实际上海鸥容易一些，基本都是简单的句子，主要是记忆住完整的意思。
但是，整理好的文本阅读一下就可以完全理解了，而且可以产生大量的英语思维。
实际上对于专题讨论来说，最关键地是《听说大突破》提供了一些说话的方式，对于里面专题讨论的内容实在不敢恭维，谈话内容即不够文明，也没有教育意义，学习英语的同时还要注意洗脑。
但是学习英语的方式却提供一些有益的借鉴意义。就是对于专题讨论之类的话题，只要学习一个磁带就可以学会了。讨论的水平高低，主要的是谈紫。而这个谈资的来源，主要来源于网络的搜索，相关英语话题的文章阅读一下，比学习磁带就丰富多了。只要学会了这里说话的方式，将文章的长句子破开来说就有了不停的话题。


sunyuting1 2008-06-13 08:08
4. Abortion and Sexual Education  B1 的43分38.36秒到58分43秒结束的语音文本

（原文错误修改）

Bow:

That makes it ....a very easy decision...... for the man
...... who had(that) impregnated the woman
(Daisy: Right)
... in that culture.
(Daisy: Right)
.... If it's up to her...... OK. You do it, .....he doesn't have to pay.... for anything
......and he doesn't have to... have the guilt.

Daisy:

.......He doesn't .....have to.... go out .....and hunt goats.... or something.

Vivian:

.... OK, so I think ....the moral issue ....should be,..... really emphasized.
.....I mean.... first of all,...... men should...... take responsibility,
....it's not a hit.... and go kind of thing, .....you know, ....
.....you should ....stick around even..... if you weren't involved,
..... until the process.... is over,.... and through.... with whether.... it's carrying it out... to the end,
.....or watching it through..... until she has the baby...... And I should all..
....... always emphasize adoption being,..... you know, .....an option.
.(Daisy: An option.)
.....You know, ......if all else fails,..... hey, .....you know, ....
.....I honestly think .....if that would happen to me,...... adoption, ....you know,
...... I couldn't.... find other options ...for myself,
..... I would always consider adoption.... the last resort, ...you know.

Vivian:

Abortion, .....the last resort?
(  )

Daisy:

.....No. Adoption. ....I mean..... that should be something.... that's there.
.....You know, .....if I can't keep this baby ....or if we can't raise it together .....or something.
.....My parents.... couldn't raise it...... That should.... always be.

Luke:

....I do agree that, .....that bringing a child to term..... and seeking out that route,
..... is the noble thing to do,
(Vivian: Sure)
.....but I just don't think ......everybody is up to it. .....And if they're not up to it,... I mean,
(Vivian: Exactly)
.....If they are like way ....to stressed and.....
.....way to freaked out.... and they're going through this turmoil.
..... I think .....a lot of the formative .....stuff that goes into baby's ....character,
..... probably happens ....in the womb.... before it's even popped up.

Vivian:

......You know.... they're always talking about.... people ....who are raped ...or ...in,
......you know, ....abused situations.... where it was a very tra...you Know
(Luke: traumatic)
... traumatic event..... Event? ....Ok..... Incident, ....and so ...maybe..... they don't even want this at all.

Bow:

Not always though, .....a friend of my grandmother's, ....I remember this story,... when I was young,
she, uh,.... I met her. ....She had a really great personality,
.....I always thought ....of her as a funny lady..... She was travelling ....in the Philippines, a
.....nd was raped at, ...at night, ....she had no idea.... who was.... and she had the baby,
..... and I remember the kid...... And the kid was... just like her, ....
.....she raised the kid. ....And the kid was very happy..... I believed it ...at that time,
....so it just depends on ....you know, ....who raises the kid..... I suppose
(Daisy: No, Yeah) ...
(  )
Vivian: .

....We're talking about..... the person themselves....not the baby too,
....I mean, .....it does depend ....on the person.
....You know, .....you could be... a very young girl,
.....and have been raped, ....I mean,..... this may be traumatic... for you.
.....Not only that ....but there are..... also health reasons,
.....why like young children, .....if your body ....is not fully developed,
.....you cannot carry a baby ...to term....... It's dangerous ....to your body.
......And so... a lot of doctors .....make that argument that,
.....you know, ......if your body has not .....come to age yet,
..... or it's not .....fully developed .....you're not.... up to.... bearing a baby yet.

Daisy:

.....Well,.... not just that, ....I mean, .....you know, .....I mean, ....you've got a 17-year-old kid
..... who's promiscuous.... and is pregnant, ....
...(and) you're going to..... leave it up to..... her to take care of her body ....for nine months?
....She could be drinking, .....(Vivian: Sure) .....she could be having more,
.... you know, ....sex...... She could be having, .....taking drugs ....she you never know.
..... But..... the point ....that Bow made about his....., the story about ....his grandmother ...I mean,
....in an ideal society.
.....(Bow: Grandmother's friend.)
..... Ah! Sorry..... In an ideal society,...
.... we'd all be doing that, ....but it's not an ideal society.
.....And it's up to ....us to... provide other options .....
...or ...I think ....the only way .....we're gonna solve this problem is ....by educating our children.
... (Luke: Yeah).... Letting them know.... that of course yes, ....abortion exists.
....Because if we, ....if we... make it illegal again ....we're gonna have women ....hurting themselves.
.... And there's gonna be.... butchers,..... you know... in,.... uh, ...in abortion clinics.
.....You know,.... just cutting these women up ....and it is just gonna go back.
..... It'll be chaos.....
(Bow: ....Knowledge is power)
.....So. ...It is. So, ...let's treat our kid ....let's teach our kids,
.... um,..... so that this doesn't happen.... so we're not having... them pregnant,
..... they are not getting.... the diseases, .....and this doesn't become, ....even become an issue.

Luke:

.....They have to.... have all of the options available ....to them.
.....but it has to start .....at the very foundations ....of the education system again.
(Daisy: Yes, yes.).... It's like, ....and you have to, ....people have to impress of course.
..... I think it’s uh...., it's human nature you..... want to see if it's,
..... something like ....that happens, .....you wanna see it ....come to term,
....you wanna see ..(uh)a new life brought ....into the world. ....That's the human,
.....that's the basic..... fundamental ....human impulse..... It's like procreate.
.....That's the most beautiful thing. ....It doesn't work ....for everybody.
..... It doesn't,.... it doesn't end happily.... in every situation.
..... So for that reason.... I think it.... has to be an option.
..... But ultimately ....I disagree with, .....with doing it..... It's an,.... it's an,
.... (Daisy: Abortion).... it's a shitty thing...( ) the  shitty thing.. that you have to go through
..... I'm sure..... I'll never experience it,.... but women.... I know ....who've done it, ...it's been like,
....you know, ....the hardest dec..,..... the hardest decision.... they've ever had to make ....to go actually through with it.

Daisy:
....

....But then,..... the problem is.... that today, ....you know,....
...... actually I have a friend..... in Australia .....and she's had five abortions.... and she's 28.
(Luke: Yeah) .....and she is using it as.... a form of contraception.
.....And she said .....I just had my fifth abortion.... when I last went home,
....and I said to her.... "Do you know ......like know ....about the pill,"
..... or you know .....other forms of contraception...... And she said,... yeah but if I...., if I take the pill,
....you know, ....I'm gonna gain weight, ....and this is just like,..... she's, ....
......just become .....such a superficial person....
......where she can.... check herself .....in her lunch break, ....break into an abortion clinic,
...... have an abortion, ....come out .....and go back to work
.... and has no emotional attachment whatsoever.

Vivian:

.....See? In that situation, .....it is extreme.
(Vivian: Extreme .....and it's unexceptable,..... it's amoral,.... you know)
.....Well, obviously,.... we have a group of people here,.... that..,
.... you know .....we don't have... any extreme people,
.....you know, .....we're not extremely..... pro-choice.... or pro-life.
....But .....how about we attack..... this question?
....uh，...We obviously are ....kind of pro-life..... but also pro-choice,
.....(but) for the extreme .....pro-choice people ...of course... they wanna say...
, hey, ....from day one, ....from day one.... the child is alive ....and you can't kill it ....after that day.
.... Right? ....(Daisy: Pro-life people).... Right. ....So I mean.... where exactly ....in your opinion is,
.... does life begin? ....Because..... in America.... I think... for most states,
....you know, ....abortion... is legal..... or not, ....uh,.... or illegal ....in states depending on,
....it's their decision. ...But, um, ...usually ....I think... it's two months... is the...
.... (Daisy: You can have an, ....you can have an abortion up to your ....first trimester)
....Right. ....Somewhere around there......
.... So in your personal opinions ....how far can you take it ....or you shouldn't ....take it at all?

Bow:

I already answered that ....earlier I said that I ....believe it's
... right.... from the beginning even
.....before the egg.... and the sperm meet..... It's life in,... everything.
...(Vivian: Do you think?) ....Yeah,... I believe that....
. (Vivian: You too..., Luke?.... How about you Daisy?)

Daisy:

....Yeah, ....well, ...you know, ....I believe that... I said that,
.... you know, ....shortly ....after conception.... I believe ...it's becoming... a child,
....a baby, ...a human..... But I don't believe... that it's a life .....until it's connected
..... with the mother.... and mother.... has connected with it.
..... And I believe.... that ....when the woman makes.... that decision....
.... that I'm going to ....have this child ....and I'm going to.... love this child
..... or I'm going to carry this child, ....so... it'll be loved.... by someone else.... then it's a life
....and then... it's a life.... that it's important.... It's important.

Luke:

....( it's  fou you hoth  ) It's becomes,.... I just think... it's a life... from the beginning
.....but as it becomes more complex,.... it's a trickier decision.
..... It's sorta like .....how you feel bad ...about like,
..... uh, killing a bird, ....but you don't feel bad about .....squashing a bug
...... It's all life,... you don't feel bad about... plucking a dandelion.
..... It's just higher things.... that we see as being ....more close to ....us are harder... for us to try to... snuff out.
..... And as a child develops ....and grows ...and becomes .....more like us ...with our own like genetic material.
...I think that's ....when it really starts... to become uh,... like you.

Vivian:

.....The reason ....（uh）.why I ask this question.... is because,... sure....
.... when we look at it... that way it's,
....it's an,.... a simple answer, ....hey, ...you know,...
.... it's, ....it's life... from the beginning ..or what not.
.... But.... what if we made ....that situation ...more complicated,
....what if... it was your daughter,... Bow, ...
....and she was raped.... by some stranger ..on the street and,
....listen,... listen,.... and she is only a teenager,...
..... she's young,.... she was raped, ......she doesn't know ....who the hell this person was,
..... you know,.... and.... what if she is.... put in that situation,...
..... what if she didn't know.... she was pregnant, ...hey?
.... Oh! And wait...., what if she's ....(hey,hey,ehy)  a lot of people, ....no,
.....a lot of people ....don't show until ....what they're third ....or fourth months.
....Am I right, ...Daisy?... I mean...., what if she found out ....after the first trimester,
..... after a certain point..... where a lot of people.... don't agree,
.....hey,.... after this point you shouldn't ....have it.
.....But what if the situation.... is totally .... she's too young,
....she's,.... you know,.... emotionally upset,..... and she cannot accept this. (well)
.....What if she..... made the choice.... that she doesn't ....want it.
....How would you... feel about that?

Bow:

.....Now? (Vivian: Yeah) ...（uh）.Well, ....that's the thing I'm the Dad of this person.
.... You're a woman..... What if it was you? ....What would you do? .
......I don't, ...I don't know... what I will do.

Vivian:

.... Yeah, OK..... What if it was your partner, ....
.....and what if it is your female counterpart.
.....Then it's your choice together, right?

Bow:
.
.....Yeah,...（uh） I don't know ....what I would do.
..... What would you do? ....If it was you?

Vivian:

....But see that's ....what I'm asking..... When you simply say, ....when is,
.....when does life begin,.... and how far can you take it,....
..... you guys earlier said... from day one.
.....But then when you complicate the situation.... you really can't give an answer.

Daisy:

....Well, you can..... Because.... the law says.... after your first trimester
....... you cannot legally have an abortion, ....and I,.... I would be pretty.., uh...

Vivian:

......But not in all.... countries.

Daisy:

....Well, ...（I)...almost all ....of them.

Vivian:

....But. ....Let's say that ....wasn't true,... that's,.... what it is the whole.

Daisy:

.....Say that wasn't true?

Vivian:

..... No, no, no...... I'm saying the... whole issue,
.....is they're still arguing ....where does life begin,
.... where does it end, ...(why,why)..whether to make this legal.... or not.
..... I mean..... that's ....what I'm asking.
...... If the situation..... was complicated like that.....
...... I mean,..... it was your own daughter, ......or your own mate
....., I mean,.... could you say?

Luke:

.....Once they hit elementary school,.... it's too late to abort.

Vivian:

.....Yeah,（uh ha） ...I think so too.

Daisy:

... Yeah, ......definitely.... I don't know, ....I mean.... that's a tough,
.....you know,.... I mean,..... that's basically ....(.the  uh)...the scientific evidence
..... that most pro-lifers ....are arguing with..... with pro-choicers.
..... And you know,.... I just,... the scientific information,
......for me it's more of uh,.... a spiritual thing.
.......I think ...that it is wrong .....to just use..... abortion as contraception.... which we've all said.
..... But.... I do believe .....that it is a connection...
...... that,.....（the). that connection makes life, .....our connection ....with each other,
......(why)our relationships.... with each other,
..... and my future relationship ....with my child..... when I have a child
..... I know ....I'm pregnant ...and ....when I accept that....
..... and I'm already loving ....that child ....and bringing it into life,
..... that's when the connection ....for me would be
...... And I think .....most women.... feel that way.

Luke:

.....And I think it's easy to.... talk about, ....talk about, ....
....you know,.... when you're in a vacuum ....and saying, ....this is the right thing,
....and I'm morally like this,..... and I believe in this thing.
.....But, uh, ...yeah,...( what the happend ? ). unless you have experienced....
.... all the emotions ....that come with it.
.....And the actual ....going through ...with it. ....Who knows... what you're gonna do?
....(Daisy: Exactly) ....I mean,.... you don't know ....what you think.
..... It's easy t....o like take ....this hypothetical situation,
.... (Daisy: Sure).... and say,.... well you know,..... after thinking through it and stuff,
.....and go through all this pedantic.... sort of B.S
...... But I mean yeah, ....doing it is,.... actually.... where you're gonna find your answer
..... (and) and being put in ....that situation.... you can't rationalize that.

Bow:

......Well, that's why it is, .....what it is today..... Everything's messed up,.... because everybody,
.....not everybody has gone through it.....
...... So ....we have these opinions .....which we think..... this could be .....a basic foundation
......but people will still ...（um）..from now ....until the end of time.... they will still
... um, .....keep talking about this,.... (Daisy: Sure)
.....and keep going through the same situations.... over and over again.
.....You just keep your opinions,.... you know,
.... like what you think .....and you try to do .....but you hope of course.... a situation like that
..... would not happen. .....But if it does arise.... then.... you try to deal with it as it comes.

Daisy:

.....Sure,.... that's fine. ....These people in the government
....(Luke: Speaking on your behalf of course)
.......(.These people in the government)
are going to make decisions .....about my future.... and my body,...
.... and I wanna have a say in that...... I'm not impressed....
..... when conservative ....Rush Limbaugh ....or whoever else it.
.... happens to be... in government ....at the time.
......Would stand up there .....and tell me ....what rights ....I have as a woman,
.....and what ...I can do... with my body,.... I'm offended.

Bow:


......But there are.... also republican..... or conservative women.... in congress
..... who're voting.... for these laws too.

Daisy:
    (  )
....Yes, there are. ....But they have a right ....to talk about that.
..... Because they are women, ...I accept that.
....( that)But I don't,.... I, I,.... draw the line.... when I've got a bunch full of
.....white male conservatives .....discussing my future .....and other women's future.

Vivian:

....Right...... (I) I agree with that, ....but I do believe, ....
....I'm sorry .....to go against all the females.... out there.
.....But I do believe.... they d....o have a word ...in there,..
..... because, ...um, ....a very small word. ....I'm not saying... a big word.

Luke:

.....I think for a woman....(in) in a situation .....where it wasn't uh,
.....a mutually .....mutual relationship ....this has happened,
.....an experience ....to people... I know.
.....Um,... not,.... not a close situation, ...
......all of a sudden a pregnancy.... came up.... unexpectedly ..(the).the man was,
.....I want no part of this,..... and the woman was like .....and don't sweat it,
.... I don't want to.... make you a part of it. ...That's fine.... If you're,
.....if you're interested ....in pursuing it further ....than go ahead but,
......I'm choosing to go... go ahead .....with this anyway.
..... And I think .....the guy eventually sort of just came around ....to the idea.
..... He wanted to be ....a part of it... like she was gonna go through ....with it anyways.
..... She was like.... I'll find a way,... I'm really gonna do this,
...... I'm gonna go ahead .....and I'm gonna do it.
......And then she came, .....and then... the guy was... just sort of like uh,
...... she's doing it without me.
.....That's half my kid, man.

Bow:

.....Actually, ....you know, .....I think that happens.... in a lot of cases,....(yah)
...... um, ....one partner ....makes the decision ....and it's like....
...... somebody is waiting ....for the other one to say....., yes, we can do this.
...... And then once you get ....that consensus,.....
....... then ....you go ahead ....and then you find out .....what child rearing is,
......child bearing ....and child rearing ....and it turns out ....to be a very rewarding .....experience.
..... Exactly. ...Thank you.

Luke:

A rewarding experience.

Vivian:

...... I just wanna touch on..(uh)... what that just reminded me of...
.... was. What if the woman were to.... go ahead....
..... and consent to ....this and say ....that she..... wanted the baby
..... and there was the male ....who didn't ....want anything... to do with it.
..... Doesn't he have something to say,.... when he says....
..... I don't want... my child being born...... What about.... that aspect of this story, no?

Bow,

Daisy:

.....No.

Vivian:

...... No?

Luke:

I don't think ...so,... I don't think.... I'd feel in a place.... that I've ever... tell a woman,
.....you have to ....take that child's life,.... if she felt, ....she felt,....( )
..... if she felt.... that she was ....good enough to do it ....and she was up... for the job,
..... no one else .....would be more qualified ...than her.

Vivian:

....OK..... Let's wrap up ....with maybe ...a comment.... from each of us.
..... How do you feel over all.... and maybe then, ....some thoughts?

Bow:
..
.... Um,..... I think Daisy...... brought up a really.....(uh) pertinent point.... which was,
.....which can kind of almost ....sum up everything.... which is that ....education is the key point.
.... (Vivian: Definitely)..... And,... uh,..(yah)... educate people,....
...... and let them know .....what's going on ...as much ....as you can,
....... put more money... into the schools.... for that purpose ...and uh...

Vivian:

.... And the parents ....should get involved, too..... It's not just schools,
(Luke: Talk to your kids, to your kids)
......don't make it ....just the schools' ....or governments' ...responsibility.

Daisy:

.... Hopefully, ....you know, ....if we are able to do that,.... if we are talking to our children
....., and we are teaching them.... in schools,
.......getting them as much.... information as possible,
......and trusting ....their judgment, .....maybe(they)... they won't even get.... to the situation
......where they'll have to.... think about abortion.
..... But, ...you know,.... we've got to do something.

Vivian:

......And sadly enough .....if you were.... put in that situation,
.... this is my personal opinion,... but I think.... each situation..... is different regardless
..... if it's pregnancy, ....or violence,... or what not.
.....You have to ....kind of take it.... for ...each circumstance
.......(Daisy: Right)
....on its own. ....We can't just ....judge everything.

Daisy:

....There is no.... black ...and white.


sunyuting1 2008-07-23 08:08
分拆语音
1. Abortion and Sexual Education的前15分钟4秒语音对应的文本


SIDE A


Ok, today we're talking about a real sensitive issue.
It's abortion and of course sexual education,
it all kinds of, you know, combines into each other.

Vivian:

This is Viv.
Daisy:

Yeap! This is Daisy.
Yes, a very heated topic.
I don't know what do you think. Bow.

Bow:

This is Bow! It's short for Bow Seaffas.
Anyway, I think this is a hot topic all over the world.
So let's dig our heels in and get going.

Luke:

Yeah, the life-giving force that we all have inside of us,
that procreative impulse,
that just seems to keep on going like a spark
that can never be snuffed out.
Let's rap gang.

Vivian:

Hello everyone welcome
and uh let's introduce ourselves.

Luke:

How are you doing? This is Luke!

Bow:

And I am Bow!

Daisy:

And I am Daisy!

Vivian:

And this is Viv!

Vivian:

Today's topic is sexual education.
Let's start off by saying, hey,
where did you guys start off?
I mean, how'd you get your sexual education?

Daisy:

Well, urn, well, actually I was kind of brought up in
a very strict Catholic family
and my mother was very reluctant to tell me about anything.
Actually, my funny story,
my sister asked me to go to the store
and buy her some tampons.
And I had never heard this word before,
didn't even know what they were.
So I went to the shop
and I asked the guy
for some tampons,
and he gave them to me.
Looking at these tiny little,
cotton things and thinking,
what the hell are these?
I had no idea.
So I gave them to my sister
and asked her what they were.
And she said, "Ask mom."
And then I, urn, asked my mother and she wouldn't tell me
for like two months.
I kept hounding her,
so she gave me this book that
was like published in the sixties.
And it still have pictures of women that
use to wear those sanitary belts
that they attached sanitary napkins, too.
And I couldn't understand any of the words,
I didn't even know what a penis or a vagina was.

Vivian:

Oh! Daisy. This is brutal!

Daisy:

And I was pronouncing the word,
as "Penis," and "Vagina."
And my cousin came to visit me,
he was like talking about sex.
And I said "I know what sex is."
And he said, "No, you don't. What is it?"
And I said, "well, it's when a man puts his penis
in the women's vagina."

Vivian:

Can I ask how old you were
when you in first like.

Daisy:

When I got this? I was probably
10 or 11 I guess.
(Vivian: Really?)

Vivian:

What about school education?

Bow:

Urn. There was an attempt at educating students when I was,
I guess, in grade four or five.
I must have been just pre-pubescent at that time.
(Vivian: Right)
12, Thereabouts, 11 or 12.
They would take all the boys
and shuttle them into another room
and they would leave all the other girls
in the classroom that they were in.
And then the gym instructor would take us all and explain
basic things very nervously.
He was a gym instructor.
He was about physical education.
He was, part of his job description was not teaching
a bunch of horny pre-pubescent boys about sex.
But, um, because the curriculum had changed,
he sort of got stuck with the job.
And I mean it's, it's kind of stupid.
I mean it should, it has to be done.
But the thing is by that time,
a lot of kids really do know
quite a bit about sex.
Just because they have older brothers or sisters
who sort of fill them in or stuff,
um, or their friends do and they've learned stuff from their friends
in a lot of cases.
So I kind of knew a lot of stuff,
but it still was good to have that.
I think because it sort of,
am, solidified a lot of things,
just so that you wouldn't be embarrassed
if it ever came up like,
I know there's a lot of tension for me,
because there were a lot of spaces missing in the whole sex thing
that I wanted to get like,
you know, get smart with eventually
before I actually was gonna be with a girl.
I didn't wanna like just get there and be like "doh",
I've never learned that part,
you know.
So it is not necessary.
(Daisy: They told you that?)
No, I need not to study the general things,
you don't wanna go into it,
you know, your big romantic first encounter
and end up looking like a spasm,
just because you, you didn't want,
you know, ask your buddy.
What's that for?
How do you use that or whatever.

Vivian:

What about the parental aspects?
I mean, did your parents ever like come in and ask you or
tell you anything?

Luke:

My father would sometimes come up to me,
and ask me if there was anything that I wanted to know,
that I was curious about.
Is there any, you know,
sort of things that you're,
you know, you'll probably,
you know, starting to become a man now?
Is there anything that you're curious about?
Wanna know about?
Of course for me,
I was just ' No, that's all right. Dad, I'm fine.
And he said like, All Right. Great,
see what's on TV.
That was good enough for us.

Vivian:

And then week, he'd come back.

Luke:

Just make, just let you know,
you know, I'm here,
if you do wanna talk about this stuff,
if you don't,
that's probably,
you know,
just as good if not better.
(Daisy: That's great.)

Bow:

He was available for that.

Vivian:

How about you Bow?

Bow:

Um, my sexual education was a little bit warped.
I think it, kind of all most make me uh,
deviant almost because of it.
Because it was kind of in uh,
little, clips of things.
So like I guess, Luke was saying it was for..,
fourth grade or fifth grade.
You start to think about it
when it happens and...
There are some, you know,
promiscuous people in that grade too.
Sure they are. There was,
this couple they were supposedly going out
and there's rumor that they had,
had sex. So then,
everyone in that grade was like really interested in what happened,
what happened.
And they said,
well they did it.
And then they both got sick.
So, we thought that,
that's like what happen after you do it,
you know, too early or something you get sick.
But then like the second part of it was after that,
I actually, caught my parents doing it.
It just like walked into the room
and I thought like my dad was hurting my mother.
So I said "Dad, you're hurting mom."
And he said, "No, just go back to bed. We're OK!"
And then where it gets worse is
because I went to a Catholic school.
They kind of masked
sex education as health,
in health class.
You take health.
But you're taught sex education
by a really big and fat ninety-year-old nun
who says if anybody laughs,
I'm gonna whack you on the back of your head.
People laughed and I laughed and
then she said like this is the penis and this is the vagina... Boom!
you got whacked in the back of your head.
So now I like uh,
when I have relations I feel like I'm gonna get whacked
in the back of my head in a minute.

Daisy:

Which you do anyway!

Bow:

Turns me on.

Luke:

It still true that
I feel if you laugh during any sort of sexual stuff,
you usually get a slap in a face.

Vivian:

Are we talking from experience here, right?

Luke:

Oh, yes, sure. I haven't had sex, yet.

Bow:

Oh yeah sure.
So, but I'm think uh, nowadays,
like I sound like a real dad like:
"When I was back in school,"
but, it's true like I think people are more aware of it,
at least in North America,
and they're making it a priority their kins take this sexed.
As a whole class not as
under the guise of health class.

Vivian:

Right. I think in the past ten,
maybe 15 years,
especially in the American school system
with the addition of sex education.
It may not necessarily be a class you can select it
as an elective when you enter high school.
But usually you get this class
during the end of your elementary
or beginning of your junior high years,
you get a couple of classes
with the health teacher or the nurse.
And they teach you,
you know, all the basic functions of the body including,
you know, all the sexual parts,
and that has changed the educational system a lot.
As matter of fact,
there's lots of parents who are totally against
having sexed in school.
They don't like the fact of the school teaching it and so
usually you get parental permission
before your child can enter that class.

Daisy:

Well, when I'm, I was in elementary school,
um, I went to a Catholic school.
And they didn't teach it in the school
but what they did to satisfy the parents
who wanted the education
was have all the kids go to the local church
after school.
And sit down while the priest and the nun
gave us sex education.
Which is ironic.

Vivian:

That sounds similar to Bow's situation.

Luke:

That's why that, you know.
Catholic school girls have such a bad reputation
cause they do just the opposite of what they are not supposed to do.

Vivian:

Exactly.

Daisy:

But, um, basically,
just the biological functions they taught us,
you know, woman menstruate.
And this is what happens and
then when I went to high school
I had a class like that it was called health.
They were very liberal they taught us about contraception,
sexual diseases,
everything from drugs,
tobacco,
alcohol,
all those things that
you know I guess kids are tempted by.
And I thought it was good.
Actually, I found the class very interesting
because I never had that education in elementary school,
and I know more I think about those things like sexual diseases
than any of my friends do because I remember that.
I think it's really important to teach kids that,
and give them that sexual education.

Bow:

The thing that's um,
strange are the statistics like today,
because you know,
say from the forties for example to the sixties,
or late fifties
even though sex education
it was kind of weird talk about it
and it was really scientific and stuff,
but there was less teenage pregnancy then,
than there is now when they're really adamant about teaching
these things in school.
So like is it just that the kids are not listening
or do they think they no more than more people?
I don't know.

Luke:

I think it's that,
I think the reason that parents
are against it is because they think that
their children are becoming educated
about the wrong things at too early an age,
but the truth is that kids are growing up they're,
they're maturing a lot faster.
(Daisy: Right. Much more promiscuous than they used to be.)
Not necessarily pre-mascuous,
but I mean that they come of,
they sort of come of age a little earlier
and they, urn, they go through these changes a little earlier
and the thing is they are going to get,
they are gonna get educated,
they are gonna learn about sex,
they're gonna be curious about it,
from a young age.
It's probably better that
like they learn about it on TVs and movies and music,
and on the Internet.
But they don't have that sort of, urn,
educational aspect,
and sort of like
what you should do,
maybe and what you shouldn't do.
That's why sex education it's not like they're gonna,
just go through life,
not even hearing about sex,
not wondering about it or curious about it,
if they don't get sex education.
But the sex education is good in that,
it sort of says now just be smarter about it,
you know, like
put this on or use this or like maybe,
maybe it's better to wait.
You got to think of your options
and if they won't get that
out of a school setting,
they just get sex is dirty,
it's kinda interesting.
They're just curious about it
and they want to learn about it.

Vivian:

For me, you know, my parents never sat me down,
even to these day,
we've never talked about that topic.
I mean, we never had that birds
and the bees little talk that everyone get.
So my first contact with that kind of information
was in elementary school,
just like Luke said,
we had the little class where the school
nurse actually took you aside,
and separated you and told you about the anatomy.
Perhaps the girls could,
you know, run into their menstrual cycle any time soon now.
You should go talk to parents.
And they gave us this little sample of the sanitary napkins.
So when I first ran into my little accident,
you know, I had that little sample that the teacher gave me and so
'Thank God!' You know, cause my mom and I never talked about that.
And then my second encounter with that sort of information
was in junior high,
when we had the health class that Daisy was talking about.
We had the health class
where we talked about all sorts of things
starting with drugs and going down to,
you know, the aca-, uh,
anatomy and sex and what not,
and I think when you're younger,
because children talk,
uh, she went out with so and
so and they did this and that,
of course, you know,
the movies and videos all sorts of information
that you get on TV.
There's a lot of things that aren't factual
but you know lots of rumor things that you think may be true
and sexual education kind of reinforces what you know,
and what may not be factual
and a lot of myths
get cleared out of the way,
you know, about STDs,
and AIDS and drugs and
getting this disease and that
of course pregnancy and what not.

Bow:

Urn, yeah, O.K. But, I think, uh,
one of the things that you're saying is that
you're unfortunate to not have the talk with your parents,
like everybody does,
I don't think many people do get that talk actually.
I think it's very rare that people do
and I think like the movie
"American Pie,"
that's why it was so funny with the father
"Eugene Levvy"
like "Son here's a couple of magazines for you."
Everybody could relate to that,
because that's what parents do.
I think it's just kind of weird to talk to your kids about
and they try to do it,
cause they think it's their duty,
but it doesn't really help.
I don't think so.

Daisy:

I think it's just probably;
it's a really awkward thing.
Because you know a mother-daughter
or father-son relationship is,
you know, extremely sensitive where that area is concerned.
A mother doesn't or father doesn't
want his daughter to be,
you know, even having sexual feelings.
So I think it's very difficult for them,
but that's why I think,
urn, because they're families like that,
that do have difficulties discussing those things,
that it is absolutely,
urn, of the utmost importance,
that education be in schools, compulsory.
The government should make that the law
whether parents don't like it or not
especially in this day and age.
I don't care what country you're in,
even if you're in Korea,
and they say there's no AIDS which is just,
just misinformation,
you know, there are,
other sexual diseases out there,
that can stay with you for life,
and you know, that might not be life threatening
but they are not certainly not comfortable,
and you know, there's AIDS, there's...
Oh, there're so many different things.
(Vivian: STDs, sure)
You know, other than pregnancy
to worry about
(Luke: Psychological things)

Sure.

sunyuting1 2008-07-24 07:38
分拆语音

2. Abortion and Sexual Education  A2 的15分到29分6秒语音对应的文本



Vivian:

I definitely agree with Daisy,
there. That's definitely true
and then also it doesn't just rely on the government or the schools.
People always say,
hey, it starts with the home and it really does,
and for example,
I mean, if you were to put yourself in those same shoes,
if I had a daughter or a son,
I mean, I eventually know I have to talk to them,
sure, this is the position
that many parents are put in is.
I need eventually talk to my child about something like this
but "Are they there yet",
so it's kind of like,
kind of, you know, test you out,
maybe test out the waters by coming out and saying...
"So, is there any thing you wanna talk about?"
kind of like in Luke's situation.
But then of course the kids in the same situation were there,
it's an awkward topic for them, too.
And so they're not gonna say,
yeah. Dad actually I wanna know about this.
So they just keep avoiding the topic.
So you never end up talking about it
even though your child maybe 16, 18, 20.
You never want to admit to yourself.
Oh, my child is sexually active or is going to be,
and so you never wanna really go in
and you know. Yes, Bow.

Bow:

Um, yeah, that’s exactly right.
That's how I felt when I first had my daughter,
and I thought "oh" I'm just gonna be a strict dad
and she's never gonna have sex,
she's not gonna be with boys and all this stuffs.
And then I met,
uh, another father,
who has a similar situation.
We called him a Cooter.
Cooter's opinion was that,
that's so stupid.
I mean she's just gonna rebel against you even more,
she gonna become like a prostitute,
she's gonna do it for money,
you know it's just a natural res..,
res.., natural thing,
you know. That's what people do.

Vivian:

God forbid your daughter does that ten years from now.

Bow:

Yeah, ok. But um, anyway I kind of realized,
you're exactly right,
and I can't do that,
I can't like, you know lock her up,
and put a chastity belt on her,
or get the chastity rings...
I just have to kind of try to raise her,
naturally in hope like she'll be smart enough to make her own decisions.
(Daisy: Hope that she has good judgment)

Vivian:

I definitely think that the more informed you are,
the smarter you are,
think about it,
when you look at two 18-year-olds, for example,
and you have one that is very much educated
and aware of her surroundings,
and current events and what not.
One that is not so much aware of everything and informed.
When you see the ignorance
and the naivete of one child versus the other,
you know, that person that has more knowledge,
you know, yeah they're,
they know what's going on,
but then also they're gonna be, more aware of the bad things
and they are gonna be smart about
their choices and decisions versus the ones
that are not so aware
and so out of curiosity
and ignorance she's gonna go in there
and most likely be in a lot more dangerous situations.

Luke:

I think all kids respond to, uh,
to just frankness and openness.
And it's really hard to do with a topic like that,
but I find that like coddling kids
and just going like goo-goo ga-ga
and stuff often they're just like,
OK, someone's making stupid voices to me.
That's not how they really talk
when they're among themselves,
so I think they'd really respond to,
to a subject like that which is very sensitive
if you can just show them
you're comfortable talking about it like
at an early age
even if you are not.
If you can just sort of I don't know
be open about that stuff,
be available to talk about those sort of things.
I think it wouldn't be such,
such a hard thing to talk about
because it really is a natural thing,
you know it's such an obvious thing
and it's just all this other sort of social
conditions that make it sort of dodge to talk about, you know.

Vivian:

And who here at the age of 15 or 16,
didn't think that they were mature enough
or adult enough to hear something like this,
when your parents do talk to you like that
you're "Yeah, whatever",
and then it just makes you revolt against them more,
when they speak to you at such a level,
you know, when they if your parents had actually talking you
at the age of 15
and sat you aside and sai.
"Hey, you're an adult now,
you're mature enough to listen to this.
Hey, let's just talk to each other like adults.
This is how it is,
and if you're gonna get involved
or I would prefer that you don't
let me know this is how it goes.
If they are very frank with you,
I mean, I honestly think that,
yeah, I would probably respond,
not only with that,
you know, the whole sexual aspects
but with many other aspects as well,
at a much more mature level.
And probably grown up a little bit.

Bow:

You're saying that if your parents were frank with you then
(Vivian: Yeah, I'm just)
I disagree with that.
(Vivian: You do why?)
Because I think the point that you made that teenagers,
urn, do think that they are mature
because of that reason
they don't wanna listen to anybody.
And I think you don't realize that
until you become an adult,
and I think if you're frank with them,
yeah, they could be "yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever."

Daisy:

Yeah, but it depends on the attitude that you have towards them,
I mean if you're treating your children like a baby the entire time,
I mean that,
(Luke: And suddenly come up and say,
OK, let's talk about the birds and bees.)
Exactly.

Luke:

I mean you have to open with them even from a young age
like just sort of let them know like
"this is what makes girls girls,
this is makes boys boys,"
and like start at the really basic stuff like that, I mean.

Vivian:

Cause the entire raising the child experience is
an educational thing
from very the beginning it leads gradually,
and slowly, and eventually toward
the sex education thing as well.

Bow:

OK thanks. I'll remember that.

Daisy:

Well, you know, I just think that
we're so way beyond on this discussion
I don't think it's even about
how we approach it with out kids any more.
I think it should be forced down their throats.
I think whether the government has to do that,
the school has to do that,
or the parents,
it should be made some law that makes it compulsory.
Because I am not,
I don't want my child,
if, even if she can't talk to me
even if I have a great relationship with my child,
if he or she can't talk to me,
I wanna know she's getting
that information somewhere else.
(Vivian: Right)
Because it's just way to dangerous.
You take Korea, for an example,
you know, here's a country that has basically,
my niece, I asked what she gets in school.
And they're still just giving them the biological processes,
you menstruate,
the penis is inserted into the vagina
and so on, and so on, so on.
And she really knows nothing about
how to protect herself from pregnancy.
She doesn't know anything about sexual diseases.
She still thinks, and so does the rest of Korea,
which just makes me insanely angry,
that you can get AIDS
by drinking out of the same cup as someone,
you know, I mean, it's just misinformation,
and the thing, this is a country that has nightclubs
that have professional, you know,
dm, hookers working there.
And it's not just Korea.
It's the rest of Asia as well,
and urn, it's ok to have hookers
working in nightclubs as,
you know, girls that peel your fruit
or pour your drink.
But it's not ok to teach the rest of the country
that you need to wear a condom
that you need to protect yourself,
that there's AIDS,
there's other sexual diseases out there.

Luke:

What are the names of those night clubs?

Vivian:

Anyways, I do have to agree
with Daisy on one point
is the actual amount of education you are getting
and at what age, too.
As I was saying before,
I learned about the anatomy in elementary school.
But then like said especially
when you are at that age you're very sensitive
and you hear a lot of information
and that's not actually factual,
a lot of it is,
just a lot of gossip that kids pass around.
Hey, if you do this,
you get this.
This happens to you
such and such. Literally,
ninety percent of it is all false,
I mean, its false information
and you should be informed
with factual information
whether it’s from school,
or homes or whatever.
And even to this day,
even from adults that I speak to, my friends.
There's a lot of people that are
totally misinformed about certain things,
I mean, they may know it up to a certain point,
but then that they don't know the, the rest of it.
You know, I mean I'm talking about 30-year-old adults
who don't know the,
the entire picture, you know,
and I mean, when these children are going up to junior high
and they know basically the,
the little skeleton,
but they don't know the meaty part of it,
and then they hear all these rumors.
Even though, you think you're supposed to know
you're not so sure,
and when you hear these rumors.
Oh, that must be true,
I mean, if they get factual information
instead of being misinformed by their peers,
wouldn't that change a lot of things.

Luke:

Sure. I was growing up, uh,
a lot of, uh,
people that I knew
who were starting to experiment with sex
under the understanding
that you couldn't get pregnant the first time.
And you couldn't get pregnant
if you did it in a certain position,
if the girl was on top or something.
So that was sort of a form of birth control,
you know. I wonder how many people
got themselves in a lot of trouble.
It's the first time. Forget about it.

Bow:

Girls believe that.
You win there.

Vivian:

I have a totally prime example;
this is just something recent
that I had recently read.
I heard that in Korea a form of,
I think, I don't know,
if it was Korea or America whatever,
but maybe twenty years ago,
a form of birth control
was pulling out before the male ejaculated.
(Luke: It helps.)
It helps, yeah, but that is not 100 percent.
That is not
(Daisy: Coitus interrupt us)
contraception.
That is totally not,
you know, and I was trying to explain,
no actually. You know, it leaks out a little bit,
and then also even,
and that's totally not contraception.
And then the second fact
which wasn't a fact was, um,
there were many women that were confused as to
when you're menstruating
if you have intercourse,
you couldn't get pregnant,
or when you're menstruating
that was the time when you do get,
you know, pregnant,
which was true.
And so they were confused as to
which was actually true.
And so that is very dangerous information to have,
if you are on the wrong side of.

Daisy:

Well, that's the rhythm method,
and that's what the Catholic Church
tried to get everybody to use it and
that's why Catholic parents
have so many children.
(Luke: That's why it's the main religion in Christianity.)

Vivian:

If you're to go to a doctor,
ask him if this is true or not,
he probably would laugh in your face,
because, first of all,
this is not a way to,
you know, protect yourself,
and perhaps if you don't wanna conceive children
that is not the way to go about things.
And second, it isn't true, you know,
I mean that is totally false information.

Luke:

But it's hard,
if people don't,
if kids don't have anywhere to go to other than friends'
who also don't know the score,
and if parents aren't
really forthcoming with that kind of information
and they don't get it in the schools,
like where are they gonna get it.

Daisy:

That's why, you know, I urge,
you know parents to go and
join their PTA to write their local member
to get their governments to do something
to make it compulsory in schools.

Bow:

I think it is actually in the States
(Luke: It is.)
(Vivian: In America)
the problem is, with that is,
even though like anything else,
US history is compulsory,
but you gotta,
a lot of kids in the poor neighborhoods
don't go to school.
(Daisy: Right)
So they are not showing up for the class, you know.

Daisy:

Well that's why I think that there needs
to be some type of standard in,
you know, in sex education in schools,
and as Bow said,
you know, of course there are the poor kids,
you know, in poor neighborhood that aren't getting that education.
But there are you know, I,
I, the government even in the states,
is trying to do things about that I mean,
they've got welfare offices set up and
people that go out,
they talk to women
who are single mothers having children
and give them information about,
you know, how to protect themselves
both from sexual disease,
and pregnancy.
And I think it has to be
a national effort in any country that you live in.
If you have children and you're not involved,
then you're not doing enough.
You have to go,
you have to write to your local member.
You have to go to the village meeting,
discuss these things they're important.
And if you're not involved,
then if your child does get pregnant
then you are responsible for that.

Vivian:

And I think this eventually leads to another question
that is actually a very hot issue,
especially in the western countries these days.
I mean, what if all of this sexual education,
it didn't work out in the end.
Hey, what if, uh, it just didn't work out the way
you wanted it for,
your daughter or son?
What if they did get pregnant
or what if they got someone else pregnant,
they'd been a situation where what?
They may be students and they couldn't finish their education
or they'd be force to
have home education.
There is a lot of situations going on out there.
And of course even as a young adult or an elder adult,
you may get pregnant
and that is not the situation that you had planned on.
There are some options out there for you
and they're difficult options,
and we can discuss some of the options first,
and see how we all feel about this,
um, obviously the topic is adopt.., um,
I'm sorry, adoption?
Ok. Those are one of the choices,
yeah, that's one of the choices, but abortion.
It is a really hot steamy issue,
lots of people get very urn,
sensitive about this one,
so let's start off by saying like
where we kind of stand.
Are you pro?
Or Are you against abortion?
Are you for abortion?
And second let's talk about the choices
that are involved with that.
You wanna start up Bow?
Are you
(Bow: Me?)
Luke?

Bow:

Um, I think that.

Vivian:

What side are you on first?

Bow:


I don't choose either side,
I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life.
But I do, I believe that, um,
there shouldn't be an abortion
if people are, can be responsible,
if they have the ability to be responsible,
but they're just choosing not to be because oh,
it's gonna be so hard on me.
I don't agree with that.
I agree in extreme situations
where depending on
how that child is gonna be raised,
if the child is gonna grow up to be,
you know, raised in a terrible environment
then maybe the best choice would be to,
you know, go ahead for the abortion.
Um, if it had to do with a mother's health,
um, basically yes.


sunyuting1 2008-07-27 00:26
Daisy:

He doesn't have to go out and hunt goats or something.

Vivian:

OK, so I think the moral issue should be,
really emphasized.
I mean first of all,
men should take responsibility,
it's not a hit and go kind of thing,
you know, you should stick around even if you weren't involved,
until the process is over,
and through with whether it's carrying it out to the end,
or watching it through until she has the baby.
And I should al...
always emphasize adoption being,
you know, an option.
(Daisy: An option.)
You know, if all else fails, hey, you know,
I honestly think if that would happen to me,
adoption, you know, I couldn't find other options for myself,
I would always consider adoption the last resort, you know.

Vivian: Abortion, the last resort?

Daisy: No.

Adoption. I mean that should be something that's there.
You know, if I can't keep this baby or
if we can't raise it together or something.
My parents couldn't raise it. That should always be.

Luke:

I do agree that,
that bringing a child to term
and seeking out that route,
is the noble thing to do,
(Vivian: Sure)
but I just don't think everybody is up to it.
And if they're not up to it,
I mean,
(Vivian: Exactly)
If they are like way to stressed and.
way to freaked out and they're going through this turmoil.
I think a lot of the formative
stuff that goes into baby's character,
probably happens in the womb
before it's even popped up.

Vivian:

You know they're always talking about people
who are raped or in,
you know, abused situations where it was a very tra...
(Luke: traumatic)
traumatic event. Event?
Ok. Incident,
and so maybe they don't even want this at all.

Bow:

Not always though,
a friend of my grandmother's,
I remember this story,
when I was young,
she, uh, I met her.
She had a really great personality,
I always thought of her as a funny lady.
She was travelling in the Philippines,
and was raped at,
at night, she had no idea
who was and she had the baby,
and I remember the kid. And the kid was just like her,
she raised the kid. And the kid was very happy.
I believed it at that time, so it just depends on ves not the baby too,
I mean, it does depend on the person.
You know, you could be a very young girl,
andyou know, who raises the kid.
I suppose (Daisy: No, Yeah) ...
Vivian:
We're talking about the person themsel have been raped,
I mean, this may be traumatic for you.
Not only that but there are o term.
It's dangerous to your
body. And so a lot of doctors make that argument that,
you know, if your body has not come to age yet,
or it's not fully developed you're not up to bearing a baby yet.

Daisy:

Well, not just that,
I mean, you know, I mean, you've got a 17-year-old kid
who's promiscuous and is pregnant,
and you're going to leave it up to her
to take care of her body for nine months?
She could be drinking,
(Vivian: Sure)
she could be having more,
you know, sex. She could be having,
taking drugs she you never know.
But the point that Bow made about his,
the story about his grandmother I mean,
in an ideal society.
(Bow: Grandmother's friend.)
Ah! Sorry.
In an ideal society,
we'd all be doing that,
but it's not an ideal society.
And it's up to us to provide other options
or I think the only way we're gonna solve this problem is by educating our children.
(Luke: Yeah)
Letting them know that of course yes,
abortion exists.
Because if we,
if we make it illegal again
we're gonna have women hurting themselves.
And there's gonna be butchers,
you know in, uh, in abortion clinics.
You know, just cutting these women up and
it is just gonna go back.
It'll be chaos.
(Bow: Knowledge is power)
So. It is. So, let's treat our kid let's teach our kids,
um, so that this doesn't happen
so we're not having them pregnant,
they are not getting the diseases,
and this doesn't become,
even become an issue.

Luke:

They have to have all of the options available to them.
but it has to start at the very foundations of the education system again.
(Daisy: Yes, yes.)
It's like, and you have to,
people have to impress of course.
I think it’s uh, it's human nature you want to see if it's,
something like that happens,
you wanna see it come to term,
you wanna see a new life brought into the world.
That's the human,
that's the basic
fundamental human impulse.
It's like procreate.
That's the most beautiful thing.
It doesn't work for everybody.
It doesn't, it doesn't end happily in every situation.
So for that reason I think it has to be an option.
But ultimately I disagree with,
with doing it.
It's an, it's an,
(Daisy: Abortion)
it's a shitty thing
that you have to go through.
I'm sure. I'll never experience it,
but women I know who've done it,
it's been like, you know, the hardest dec..,
the hardest decision they've ever had to make
to go actually through with it.

Daisy:

But then, the problem is that today,
you know, actually I have a friend in Australia
and she's had five abortions
and she's 28.
(Luke: Yeah)
and she is using it as a form of contraception.
And she said I just had my fifth abortion
when I last went home,
and I said to her
"Do you know like know about the pill,"
or you know other forms of contraception.
And she said, yeah but if I,
if I take the pill, you know,
I'm gonna gain weight,
and this is just like,
she's, just become such a superficial person
where she can check herself in her lunch break,
break into an abortion clinic,
have an abortion,
come out and go back to work
and has no emotional attachment whatsoever.

Vivian:

See? In that situation, it is extreme.
(Vivian: Extreme and it's unexceptable,
it's amoral, you know)
Well, obviously, we have a group of people here,
that.., you know we don't have any extreme people,
you know, we're not extremely pro-choice or pro-life.
But how about we attack this question?
We obviously are kind of pro-life
but also pro-choice,
for the extreme pro-choice people
of course they wanna say, hey,
from day one,
from day one the child is alive and
you can't kill it after that day. Right?
(Daisy: Pro-life people)
Right. So I mean where exactly in your opinion is,
does life begin?
Because in America I think for most states,
you know, abortion is legal or not,
uh, or illegal in states depending on,
it's their decision.
But, um, usually I think it's two months is the...
(Daisy: You can have an,
you can have an abortion up to your first trimester)
Right. Somewhere around there.
So in your personal opinions
how far can you take it or
you shouldn't take it at all?

Bow:

I already answered that earlier
I said that I believe it's
right from the beginning even
before the egg and the sperm meet.
It's life in, everything.
(Vivian: Do you think?)
Yeah, I believe that.
(Vivian: You too, Luke? How about you Daisy?)

Daisy:

Yeah, well, you know, I believe that
I said that, you know,
shortly after conception I believe it's becoming a child,
a baby, a human.
But I don't believe that it's a life
until it's connected with the mother and mother has connected with it.
And I believe that when the woman makes that decision
that I'm going to have this child
and I'm going to love this child or
I'm going to carry this child,
so it'll be loved by someone else
then it's a life
and then it's a life that it's important.
It's important.

Luke:

It's becomes, I just think it's a life from the beginning
but as it becomes more complex,
it's a trickier decision.
It's sorta like how you feel bad about like, uh,
killing a bird, but you don't feel bad about squashing a bug.
It's all life, you don't feel bad about plucking a dandelion.
It's just higher things that we see as being more close to us
are harder for us to try to snuff out.
And as a child develops and grows and
becomes more like us with our own like genetic material.
I think that's when it really starts to become uh,
like you.

Vivian:

The reason why I ask this question is because,
sure when we look at it that way it's,
it's an, a simple answer, hey,
you know, it's, it's life from the beginning or what not.
But what if we made that situation more complicated,
what if it was your daughter, Bow,
and she was raped by some stranger on the street and,
listen, listen, and she is only a teenager,
she's young, she was raped,
she doesn't know who the hell this person was,
you know, and what if she is put in that situation,
what if she didn't know she was pregnant, hey?
Oh! And wait,
what if she's a lot of people,
no, a lot of people don't show until
what they're third or fourth months.
Am I right, Daisy?
I mean, what if she found out after the first trimester,
after a certain point
where a lot of people don't agree,
hey, after this point you shouldn't have it.
But what if the situation is totally  she's too young,
she's, you know, emotionally upset,
and she cannot accept this.
What if she made the choice that she doesn't want it.
How would you feel about that?

Bow:

Now? (Vivian: Yeah)
Well, that's the thing I'm the Dad of this person.
You're a woman.
What if it was you?
What would you do?
I don't, I don't know what I will do.

Vivian:

Yeah, OK. What if it was your partner,
and what if it is your female counterpart.
Then it's your choice together, right?

Bow:

Yeah, I don't know what I would do.
What would you do? If it was you?

Vivian:

But see that's what I'm asking.
When you simply say,
when is, when does life begin,
and how far can you take it,
you guys earlier said from day one.
But then when you complicate the situation
you really can't give an answer.

Daisy:

Well, you can. Because the law says
after your first trimester you cannot legally have an abortion,
and I, I would be pretty.., uh...

Vivian:

But not in all countries.

Daisy:

Well, almost all of them.

Vivian:

But. Let's say that wasn't true, that's,
what it is the whole.

Daisy:

Say that wasn't true?

Vivian:

No, no, no. I'm saying the whole issue,
is they're still arguing
where does life begin,
where does it end,
whether to make this legal or not.
I mean that's what I'm asking.
If the situation was complicated like that I mean,
it was your own daughter,
or your own mate,
I mean, could you say?

Luke:

Once they hit elementary school,
it's too late to abort.

Vivian:

Yeah, I think so too.

Daisy: Yeah, definitely.
I don't know, I mean that's a tough,
you know, I mean, that's basically the scientific evidence
that most pro-lifers are arguing with with pro-choicers.
And you know, I just,
the scientific information,
for me it's more of uh, a spiritual thing.
I think that it is wrong
to just use abortion as contraception
which we've all said.
But I do believe that it is a connection that,
that connection makes life,
our connection with each other,
our relationships with each other,
and my future relationship with my child
when I have a child I know I'm pregnant
and when I accept that
and I'm already loving that child and bringing it into life,
that's when the connection for me would be.
And I think most women feel that way.

Luke:

And I think it's easy to talk about,
talk about, you know,
when you're in a vacuum and saying,
this is the right thing,
and I'm morally like this,
and I believe in this thing.
But, uh, yeah, unless you have experienced all the emotions that come with it.
And the actual going through with it.
Who knows what you're gonna do?
(Daisy: Exactly)
I mean, you don't know what you think.
It's easy to like take this hypothetical situation,
(Daisy: Sure)
and say, well you know, after thinking through it and stuff,
and go through all this pedantic sort of B.S.
But I mean yeah, doing it is,
actually where you're gonna find your answer
and being put in that situation
you can't rationalize that.

Bow:

Well, that's why it is, what it is today.
Everything's messed up,
because everybody,
not everybody has gone through it.
So we have these opinions which we think
this could be a basic foundation
but people will still
from now until the end of time they will still um,
keep talking about this,
(Daisy: Sure)
and keep going through the same situations over and over again.
You just keep your opinions,
you know, like what you think and you try to do
but you hope of course a situation like
that would not happen.
But if it does arise
then you try to deal with it as it comes.

Daisy:

Sure, that's fine.
These people in the government
(Luke: Speaking on your behalf of course)
are going to make decisions about my future and my body,
and I wanna have a say in that.
I'm not impressed
when conservative Rush Limbaugh
or whoever else it happens to be in government at the time.
Would stand up there and tell me
what rights I have as a woman,
and what I can do with my body,
I'm offended.

Bow:

But there are also republican
or conservative women in congress
who're voting for these laws too.

Daisy:

Yes, there are.
But they have a right to talk about that.
Because they are women,
I accept that.
But I don't,
I, I, draw the line
when I've got a bunch full of white male conservatives
discussing my future
and other women's future.

Vivian:

Right. I agree with that,
but I do believe,
I'm sorry to go against all the females out there.
But I do believe they do have a word in there,
because, um, a very small word.
I'm not saying a big word.

Luke:

I think for a woman in a situation
where it wasn't uh,
a mutually mutual relationship this has happened,
an experience to people I know.
Um, not, not a close situation,
all of a sudden a pregnancy came up unexpectedly the man was,
I want no part of this,
and the woman was like and don't sweat it,
I don't want to make you a part of it. That's fine.
If you're, if you're interested
in pursuing it further than go ahead but,
I'm choosing to go...
go ahead with this anyway.
And I think the guy eventually sort of just came around to the idea.
He wanted to be a part of it...
like she was gonna go through with it anyways.
She was like I'll find a way,
I\m really gonna do this,
I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna do it.
And then she came,
and then the guy was just sort of like uh,
she's doing it without me.
That's half my kid, man.

Bow:

Actually, you know, I think that happens in a lot of cases,
um, one partner makes the decision
and it's like somebody is waiting for the other one to say,
yes, we can do this.
And then once you get that consensus,
then you go ahead and then you find out what child rearing is,
child bearing and child rearing
and it turns out to be a very rewarding experience.
Exactly. Thank you.

Luke:

A rewarding experience.

Vivian:

I just wanna touch on what that just reminded me of... was.
What if the woman were to go ahead and consent to this and say
that she wanted the baby
and there was the male
who didn't want anything to do with it.
Doesn't he have something to say,
when he says I don't want my child being born.
What about that aspect of this story, no?

Bow,
Daisy:

No.

Vivian:

No?

Luke:

I don't think so,
I don't think I'd feel in a place that I've ever tell a woman,
you have to take that child's life, if she felt,
she felt, if she felt that she was good enough to do it
and she was up for the job,
no one else would be more qualified than her.

Vivian:

OK. Let's wrap up with maybe a comment from each of us.
How do you feel over all and maybe then,
some thoughts?

Bow:

Um, I think Daisy brought up a really pertinent point which was,
which can kind of almost sum up everything which is that
education is the key point.
(Vivian: Definitely)
And, uh, educate people,
and let them know what's going on as much as you can,
put more money into the schools
for that purpose and uh...

Vivian:

And the parents should get involved, too.
It's not just schools,
(Luke: Talk to your kids, to your kids)
don't make it just the schools' or governments' responsibility.

Daisy:

Hopefully, you know, if we are able to do that,
if we are talking to our children,
and we are teaching them in schools,
getting them as much information as possible,
and trusting their judgment,
maybe they won't even get to the situation
where they'll have to think about abortion. But,
you know, we've got to do something.

Vivian:

And sadly enough if you were put in that situation,
this is my personal opinion,
but I think each situation is different regardless if it's pregnancy,
or violence, or what not.
You have to kind of take it for each circumstance
(Daisy: Right)
on its own.
We can't just judge everything.

Daisy:

There is no black and white.


sunyuting1 2008-07-27 08:56
慢慢第一次将码压进去记忆中去
    整理文本选择自己比较适宜的速度，慢慢将码压紧大脑中，听着语音看着文本，一个个语音慢慢压到大脑，一个个单词慢慢压到大脑，一个个句子慢慢压到大脑，只要速度保持足够慢比如30%速度，压码语音声声入耳，压码文本词词入眼，精确到语音和文字的字母音节对应关系，一个句子听看完，按回车键分行动作加强了语气节奏和分段句子的压码，慢慢看着句子文本回想语音记忆句子到大脑中去，压码记忆尽量保证压住、压全码。
    练习一遍以后，进行听音压码回想练习，听到每个语音、单词和句子，就一个个语音、一个个单词、音节对应的字母压回到大脑，句子理解以后不要进行翻译，只要知道已经逐个理解即可，理解的是对应的英文语音句子，而不是中文语音句子，对于自己不能理解的内容实际上就是整理文本中没有压住码的部分，本身就是一个很好的检验过程，同时也是再次压码学习的过程，当磁带没有放到那里你已经全部回想出来下面的句子精确到语音、文本 和句子的意思，你的练习就大功告成了。这就是慢功出细活的压码理解记忆的过程。




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sunyuting1 2008-06-06 12:47

.
2册
                  Art and Culture原文
1. Art and Culture

SIDE A


sunyuting1 2008-06-06 16:15
1. 第2册1. Art and Culture的前14分钟49.6秒语音对应的文本

                1. Art and Culture

SIDE A


OK, today's topic is art and culture and this is kind of like a modern topic, something we can kind of, um, get into here. This is Viv.

Vivian: Yes, well, art and culture, it's such a broad, ah rather spectrum to discuss, You know, I really have to admit that I'd love to be thought of as arty farty, but I don't think I am, so I'm just gonna turn it to you, Bow.
Bow: Hey, my name is Bow. I consider myself arty fatty, but, um, yes I like things from, everything from Hycroppoties to Matisse to Picasso, and Mondrian, and culture, you know everything from the West Indies, you know, pygmies to Yoga.
Luke: That's cool, I don't, I never really thought I was arty, I used to really try, really hard to be arty. I used to try to play guitar, but I wasn't very good at that, and then I tried painting, and I wasn't very good at that. But then I started painting guitars, and um, I have a whole collection of painted guitars. I call it "Guit-art" and urn, I hope I can start hanging it up at museums pretty soon, so look up for it.
Vivian: And I got one of those in my bathroom, too?
Luke: Yeah, talk to me, if you need my number or whatever...
Daisy: Anyway, Let's get into it.
Luke: O.K.

Daisy: O.K. Well, you know, I often considered myself, you know, to have quite a good appreciation of art. But these days, what constitutes art, could be many different things. So, what do you think then is Art, and what makes Art, Art.

Luke: I guess the main thing for me that would constitute Art is, um, it's, well, basically in it's purest form. Art is just this random spurting of creative impulse, like, if you will. And it doesn't really have a purpose, a functional purpose, except for functional Art, I guess. Which by its own definition is, has a purpose, and has a function. But, well, I mean, just pure Art in itself is, um, is something that doesn't really serve any purpose, like it, it won't, it won't grate your cheese, and it won't, you know make your hair smell nice or anything.

Daisy: So, then, you're saying that Art is, functional only for the person that creates it? Cause, Paul Cezanne said that, that Art was in the process, not the finished product, so, if it doesn't serve a purpose, is it only serving some type of, release for the artist himself?

Luke: Or the appreciator of the Art, someone, obviously, people who appreciate Art, appreciate, the same that was evident when the art was created.

Daisy: So then, it does serve a purpose.

Luke: Of course, but not that sort of tangible functional purpose, I mean, it's more of a spiritual purpose, it's more a personal purpose.

Bow: Except for functional Art.

Luke: Except for functional Art like a really cool looking chair. It's cool looking and it maybe might, make you feel something. If it's red, it might make you think, "Ooh, I'm, feeling very passionate, that really speaks to me", and then when you sit it in, you're sitting down, and, hey...

Bow: So, O.K. What do you think about,... Ducharnp, and his Urinals and things like that, Do you believe that, that was Art or not?

Luke: I'd have to see his stuff, I guess.

Bow: Well, it's a urinal.

Luke: It's a urinal?

Bow: Yeah, he just took a urinal off the wall.

Daisy: But, wasn't he the first person to ever do that?

Bow: Well, that's the thing.

Daisy: Right, I mean, it's the same thing with Andy Warhol and his cans of soup, the fact that he did something different, created a whole new genre of Art, which, you know, is artistic in itself to be able to do something individualistic.

Bow: But, is it Art just because of in that sense, it's shocking, because no one's done it before. So,... is shocking Art considered Art?

Luke: Sure, I think it says something about society, it's a bit of a reflection of society. I think that Andy Warhol and the tomato cans, was saying something about like advertising, and no one had been around like this much like banners and this iconographic sort of representation of just everyday things (Bow: According to Andy Warhol) he blew that up. But I mean, a lot people responded to it, and like the comic books and stuff. And just these like really simple images that are just everywhere that becomes the part of the collective consciousness.

Vivian: O.K. But for simple me, who's not interested in Art. Who has no, you know, no idea, no concept, no grasp of aa in depth part of any of the Arts. For me, I just define Art as music, Art. What else is there?

Daisy: Yeah.

Vivian: Yeah, well like any sort of performance, ok. That's Art. It is what someone says, it's what, I define it in my simple mind, but then, when you guys talk like this then it sounds to me like, it's any sort of simple personal (Daisy: Expression?) expression of yourself, of your emotions, of yourself, of anything, so, dance through music, through song, through, through any of those venuses, you can express yourself, and that is Art.

Daisy: You know, Alice Walker, who wrote, the movie "The Color Purple", with the book, she wrote an essay about Art and women artists, because it's been quite a struggle for women to become successful artists, especially, you know, way back in the 50's or in the 40's. But, she was saying that, you know, it's been a struggle for women, but think about what it was like for the slaves, in America, when they first came here. Not only were women, like chattels and basically worked all the time. If they were, did have an artistic soul, how were they going to express it? And she was saying that they expressed it in everyday things. Look at the quilts that African American women made.

Vivian: I was just about to say that.

Daisy: Things like that.

Vivian: Look at the clothes and the quilts that they made. Those are expression of themselves.

Daisy: The negro spirituals that they sang while they were working on, you know, the farms and things like that. There was always an expression of Art, even though, they were in a position in society, where they weren't able to sell it or share it with other people. They share, shared it with their family, and passed it on as heirlooms to their family.

Bow: And through their Art, they have created their own culture.

Daisy: Right.

Bow: And I believe that this is something that, they are forgetting about, here in Korea. I think that they used to have a really strong culture and they had, great art, they still do, I mean, some old things. But they're losing that in the face of, you know, capitalism and ... I think Korea is really losing its national identity that it once had. Whereas uh, if they could take some of those traditional Arts that were so strong, and mix them with modern day ideas. Then they would create their own national identity and then create their own culture, again. And, for bands, and stuff like that, they just rip off other music and just change the language is not doing that. I think that, you know, taking some of the... I'm not a musician, but in all aspects of if in fashion. They actually started a little bit in, for example, the Korean traditional clothes, they're making them more contemporary looking but they are based on the design of the Korean style. Architecture, not so much, it's more based on, again capitalism (Luke: Function) and population, and you know, putting as many people into the maximizing the space and things like that. And whereas traditional style, Korean architecture, was just amazing. It was, there was so much spirituality and philosophy in it, that it, it came, you know, from these people's inspirations and their culture and they created these great pieces of, these great works. And for one example, is take Japan. Japan has a very strong contemporary national identity. If you see, well, ok, whatever, whoever studied what. like I studied, for example, I studied architecture, so when I see a contemporary style building, I can tell you if it's Japanese or not. If you here a piece of music, that, you know, probably can figure out that it's Japanese contemporary style, or clothing or painting. They have, um, they have always have been good at, doing that, getting together and saying that, we're gonna take a piece of our tradition and we’re gonna mix it with this new stuff. Whereas in other countries, um, they're just taking it on, full on. All Right.

Bow: Well, I mean, it is starting a little bit here, but it's not, they don't quite have the idea.

Daisy: Yeah, which gets back to the point I think we were talking about before, with the urinal and the, you know, and Andy Warhol. What they did was incredibly simplistic, you know, in the basest form of simplicity, ripping a urinal, you know, off a wall or putting painting a picture of a soup can.

Vivian: They weren't trying to complicate it anymore than it was.

Daisy: But, it was the fact that, it, it had never been down before and it was shocking, and that, I think is the essence of most Art. Something that is original and individualistic, and the problem here is, of course, you can take styles and blend them to create something new. But if you're just borrowing and doing something that is old and been done before, and you're not putting... Korea for example, Their old, historical art, and their historical music is that uniquely Korean. And we don't have their Asian scale or we don't in music, we don't have their Asian design, their uniquely Korean design. And if they are able to encourage that, make it modern, and make something that is new, and just not borrow songs from everyone else. Then they will have a complete and whole artistic culture.

Luke: But Art is, informed by many things and depending on where the, it says lot about the culture. And the what the values of a culture are, and it says a lot about the values of... and culture in turn feeds off Art. There's a bit of a hybridization and cross-pollinization of those two things. Because when you get right down to it, everything kind of has been done, everything has kind of been said. But as cultures evolve and as they cross-pollinate, ideas spread around, people take that and things germinate and these, weird new formations come up. And I think that's the thing, like, in this day an age, where everything has really just been done to death. It seems, and shock value is the only thing you can do now, like taking, like, religious icons and pissing on them or something. That's not, that doesn't really seem like art... it kind of is but I mean, there's so much stuff you can get just in the world around you and just like taking it with you and borrowing it and making a pastiche of stuff.

Daisy: Right.

Vivian: When you travel to a different country, what is the whole point of travelling there. Because there, it's, you want to experience their culture and their national whatever. You wanna, you wanna see, "Oh, this is their national dress, these are their buildings," this is the reason why this country is unique. Why do you wanna visit Vietnam? Why do you wanna go to Japan? Well, I wanna see them in their cultural, this is why their country is different from ours. You see all these Koreans shows on TV. They go to Bulgaria, they go to Canada, they go to Germany. Why? Because, oh, in this country, they have these huge beer halls and they drink beers in these like fifty-foot tall glasses or whatever, you know. That is makes that country distinct and unique and it's own. And, ok, we can't live in the past, but, you modernize that to configure it with today.

Daisy: Right.

Bow: I think that that's the problem. If you go to other museums, and look at other cultures, and their Art, and you study their culture through their Art. It's usually, in a display an exhibition set up chronologically, you see from this is what (Vivian: Time)... Yes, time, this is what is was then and it's moved to here and moved into, you know, certain areas into contemporary times. But, here, this is the strange part, it goes up to a certain time. And, that's pretty much it. All Stops... Yeah, it's not evolving.

Bow: Yeah, that's the end of that.

Daisy: That's not evolving.

Luke: Well, that was a, that was a,... I think that was a political thing. Wasn't there the, one of the presidents I think, had this big industrial boom. And the only emphasis that was that ever put on anything was like we have to develop everything, we have to make buildings quick. (Bow: Exactly) And just like we have to make as many and as fast as possible, and screw the Art. (Vivian: But thats the whole) And just now, I think that they're coming back to this place where, it's sort of like, we have to, we have to live in this city, we have to make it livable, we have to make it nice (Daisy: Aesthetically) aesthetically and that's the artistic, that's the artistic element which has sort of gotten (Vivian: Lost??) put on the back-burner throughout the whole development of a lot of these cities.., in...

Bow: That's why they lost their national identity. Because, you, it's got to be a consistent thing, you can't just stop it dead-on and say like "We will just fix it later once we get a bunch of money."

Daisy: But, it is their, culture, ok, for us as far us to come in and say (Vivian: Criticize?) this is wrong and you have to change this.

Bow: I don't think we're saying it's wrong. It's just, I mean in our opinions, yeah, it's our opinions, yeah, it might be wrong. But yeah, you know, we can't necessarily say that we can give advice like, you know, this is what everybody should do. I mean it, just seems common sense.

Vivian: Not in defense of the Korean side, because we aren't attacking I want to say, but, I mean, look at the Korean situation. We're saying, yeah, go back to your roots and pull from it, you know, and develop, modernize it, so that, you know, it blends in with, you know other ideas of today. But at the same time, look at the Korean culture, fifty years ago, the country was devastated, they lost everything and everything was in, you know, shambles on the ground and they rebuilt the city of Seoul for example, and now it is not a third world country, but it is a very much industrialized city, that can compete with many other, you know, they're in the what top ten cities, biggest cities of the world.


sunyuting1 2008-06-06 16:17
分拆语音

2. 第2册 1.Art and Culture的14分钟49.6秒到29分03秒语音对应的文本



Daisy: Well, you know, I think that where this discussion is going can be a, can relate to any country in the world. Because culture and Art, I think go hand in hand. Art is part of a culture in many different cultures express their souls in different artistic ways that may offend many Westerners' artistic sensibilities. So, where do we draw the line, where do we look at a culture and say "this is ok, but this is not ok" or is it even OK, for us to go into a culture and do that?

Bow: O.K. I was asked this one time, just to determine how people think about Art or not. If they're, whether they're artists or not businessmen, they say if there's a house and in this house there is a Mona Lisa, the original, and the... (Vivian: Oh really?) Yes, and the original Mona Lisa and there's the painting of Jackson Pollock where he painted the whole canvas just black. (Daisy: Right) And there's a fire in the house and you can only save one painting. You appreciate Art, but you only have a chance to save one, which one would you save?

Vivian: Well, people would say Mona Lisa because you can always go and paint other canvas black, Right? (Bow: No) But, at the same time, that's supposed to be a piece of Art.

Bow: I don't know. What is your opinion? (Vivian: That is the question) The question is what would you save?

Daisy: I wouldn't. I would save myself.

Bow: No, you can, you have, you have a chance, you can save one. You are an art-lover.

Vivian: Like I said, yeah, probably the Mona Lisa, Obviously that is the right answer?

Bow: No, There's no right or wrong answer, just like, do you know why you would save that?

Vivian: Yeah, I just said. Because you could paint another canvas black. (Daisy: Black) and then pass it off as the same painting if you wanted.

Daisy: Well...

Luke: Plus it's worth more.

Bow: Well, that's what the thing is it's like, (Daisy: It's worth more.) do you think Art is, you know...?

Daisy: Dose it have a price on it... I probably if I really wanted to save something, I'd maybe save the Pollock. Because, I don't like the Mona Lisa. But that's just a, you know, I would hang a piece of pa, I would hang a piece of Art on my wall, because I liked it. But my question was more getting towards like, cultural relativism. You know, what is, is everything Art, including traditions or you know, (Luke: Customs?) culture, cultural customs, is it relative to culture? Or do we have the right to go into that country and say that this is wrong.

Vivian: O.K. And that is the debate even in America today, they're saying OHey, is burning of the flag is that symbolic is that showing, you know, what is that, the freedom of (Luke: Expression...) expression or is it offending someone. That's kind of along those line. You can never say what is right or wrong?

Daisy: But that's ok. For Americans to say that, to discuss that, because they're Americans. When I'm talking about is people going into other cultures and saying this is right or this is wrong.

Luke: Well, I mean, why not? It's been happening over the history of Art and culture, I mean. Romans and Greeks and (Vivian: History) and everybody and Europeans and Africans, and everything has been mixed together, in kind of an eclectic mix, and the...

Daisy: So it's ok, for organizations, like the U. N. to go in to countries and say this is violating human rights, for example, Eskimo culture, for thousands of years, they would kill their babies, because they didn't have enough food to eat. That was a tradition, obviously, born out of necessity, like most traditions are. But in a culture like that, say, you know, obviously, it's not like that, today. But, you know fifty years ago it was. Is it ok for organizations like the U. N. to go in and say it's wrong, or eating dog meat in Korea? Are allowed to go in there and say that that's wrong?

Bow: So you're talking about more in the aspect of culture (Daisy: Yes)

Vivian: The thing that are part of their culture. O.K. For someone from another society where that not is acceptable to come into, step into a different society where it is perfectly acceptable, I mean, it's not done intentionally with the thought of "Oh, I'm killing a baby or Oh, I'm killing dogs, because for the pleasure, what not?" But here it's just simply a part of the culture. It is a food or, you know. Stamina food, or whatever.

Daisy: So, is that OK? What do you think, Luke?

Luke: Um, I, kind of, it's ... a kind of got to sit on the fence on that one. I think there, there is a real danger to people going to other countries and taking this attitude of cultural superiority which I really resent. I don't think that Western culture... Western culture is superior to any other culture, but there is a sort of post colonial attitude among a lot of countries where they, to a degree, they are interested in what the more developed countries think of them and their practices and everything. But sometimes there's a bit of like danger in these more developed, quote unquote, developed countries coming in and criticizing stuff. I think there's, there's got to be enlightenment on both sides and agreement on there being differences and just, and interaction. And I think that the main thing is communication and having these things out in the open so that people can discuss them. That's a dangerous movement, or this might be opening another can of worms but with the political correctness aspect of things back home. And how people were told to stifle their ideas rather than express them. For example, there was, a bar I used to frequent, it was a sort of slash gallery, I think, Bow, you might remember this. It was a, the patrons were encouraged to paint on the canvases, with paints that were left out, and just create whatever they wanted as they were drinking and socializing. It was a really nice atmosphere. And, at want point someone made a painting, it was sort of a collage of things. But there was, a swastika, that was on the painting, is was very prominent, it was a sort of a dark painting over all. And later, it just sort of, was found on the floor, ripped to shreds. And I think that was really weird that someone would, would rather, I guess that's sort of a reaction to Art. And sometimes art has those reactions, but I think it's dangerous when people refuse to acknowledge those things and refuse to accept them, there's sort of the idea of censorship that's going on. And I think that's really dangerous because, just by pretending some attitude or some practices, don't exist, does not mean that they will cease to exist, I think, the basic thing is people have to be in communication with each other like with the dog issue, the eating dogs in Korea. I can't judge it, but I can, I can just speak with Koreans about my opinions on it, and they're, free to, and like say their opinions to me. I don't think I'm right, I don't think they're right. I think we are just people who have different opinions. And Art is sort of a stimulus for bringing those opinions out.

Daisy: And also, you know, I think that you know, you look at some cultures quite a funny story actually. There was this one culture, in New guinea and you know, Christianity has been the fastest spreading thing I think in Western culture, much more so probably than the internet. That, the, some missionaries from the United States went to this, went to New Guiana and they were just travelling around trying to convert the chris.., the natives there, to christianity. And the ironic thing is that they went in to this one tribe, and the tribe ate the missionaries. They were cannibals, you know. That's funny, I mean, that's one example of Western people not understanding other cultures and going in there without any knowledge, I mean, these people didn't know they were walking around in the bush, and they were basically, you know, meat.

Luke: Exactly, I would never, I would never criticize Korea, I've chosen to leave here for a long time, not because I hate the place, and I have great criticisms about it, if I'm asked about it, I'll point out things that, you know, I'm not that happy about. But I can do that with any where I am at, and you know, I definitely would not want to go to a country and say "Ah, you are doing it all wrong, blah, blah, blah, back where I come from, blah, blah, blah," you know. And some people have that attitude, and I think that's probably the worst kind of attitude you can come. Cause, there's so much to learn from different cultures. And that's what, that's really what it's all about, ultimately.

Vivian: But that's just it, of course, there are things that you don't agree with certain cultures with, same with me. There's lots of things that I don't agree with, but that's the fact of the matter, the fact of the matter is you are in a situation and a different culture and a different society where you, as long as you are there, you should be accepting to their cultures, there, even though, there are things that you don't agree with. Now, when you look at the large scale ...

Luke: Well, I'm not accepting of my own culture, there's a lot of things about my own culture I don't like.

Vivian: Sure, that's what I'm saying, there's lots of things we don't agree about. But when you look at the large scale and then you see this dominant country coming into a smaller country, it's like the opposite effect and yet you have more presence there; so you have more, you know, power to kind of pressure the people (Luke: Sure) or the culture.

Bow: But having a little bit of your own culture in another country does make it a hell of a lot easier to live there. I don't think I, if there wasn't any part of our culture whatsoever, I don't think we could last as long as we have here.

Daisy: Right, I think that's probably true. And actually, when you um, you go and you live in another culture, I think it's also true that you will absorb things of that culture as well. And you do change and evolve, and that's great thing. I think, you know, if, you are learning or you are teaching in some, you know, even, not even know at the conscious level. That's wonderful. But, I was wondering, you know, like most of, we talked about traditions and culture and a lot of those traditions are also perceived as Art as well, especially like, you know, in countries that, Luke brought out before, you know, in the middle east. A lot of their Art and their practices and their rituals, if you consider that to be Art, are taken from a religious perspective as well, which is very interesting.

Luke: Yeah, religious Art, and political art, are probably the gawdiest kinds of Art, I think. But...

Daisy: You think?

Luke: Yeah, but I think that that's alright. I think that, if you look at the old propaganda posters from the cold war and stuff (Daisy: Sure), and or if you just look at the pictures of you know, Christ and just crying and everybody crying, there were so like over the top and just, unnatural, that they sort of, they are sort of memorable for that reason.

Bow: But you have to remember that those artists or artisans who made that stuff were products of their own environment, you have learned form that time on, you've experienced what you have in your life. That's what they dedicated their lives to, they had a certain philosophy that we don't know. I think that some of that stuff is amazing, the Gothic cathedrals, that genera, that generations and generations of, families fathers and sons would work on. Just to make this.., they had the same concept and they had the same goal, I mean, that would never happen these days, in these days.

Daisy: So I guess, what we are probably getting on to here is that, is that Art is a product of your own environment and that time certainly religion was such a big deal, that you were, you were creating a lot of religious Art, or architecture and you know then we go into the phase of, you know, post modernism where you have, you know, the black canvases and things like that. (Luke: Existentialism) Yeah, existentialism. So, is it, actually, that the Art is imitating life, or is life imitating Art?

Luke: I think they mutually inform and influence each other.

Vivian: That's like asking, was the chicken or the egg, they both influence each other, of course. But anything that you're unfamiliar with is sort of like Art to you. Like when you enter into a culture where you are not familiar, everything is unique and different to you and becomes a form of Art, like Luke was saying religion or you know, not just tapestries or paintings but the actual religion itself is an art when you not familiar with it. When it's everyday to you it's nothing new, it's no big deal.

Bow: The difference I see in Art and culture, today is that, in the past, there was always a period of time or movements and now, because, maybe because of all that or, maybe because to go against all of that, there's, really not any sort of movement, no sort of (Daisy: Right) direction, it seems to me.

Daisy: It's very static, isn't it?

Bow: It is very static, and it just seems like everything is gonna turn into this, gonna turn into chaos it almost seems.

Daisy: Right, right, I think that's true not just in visual Art, either, I think the music industry for several, maybe even, over a decade now, has been extremely static. And there's only been maybe one or two artists that have really been, done inspiring things. But, I think perhaps, maybe we feel this way, but do not think that at the end of probably the classical period or, you know, the renaissance period (Vivian: There was a dead period) that there was, you know, this plane of levelling out, perhaps, you know, this is what's happening to us, we're ready to move into the next...

Luke: Or look at Retro everything, everything that's supposedly new, all the new trends and fads that are coming out here are borrowing like shamelessly from the past (Daisy: Exactly), past twenty years, past thirty years, forty years.

Vivian: Well, in any sort of movement you go up and down and up and down, and then you kind of plateau off and then you start all over again, like, Luke mentioned, with fashion anything that is popular today, not just today, you know, five years ago, that was the trend thirty years ago. And what's today is popular today. Twenty five years ago.

Bow: But you don't start off from the same starting point, and that's where it gets kinda mixed up. It's because, and I think it kind of parallels the evolution of technology. Like information, just the amount of information that is going into our brains, these days, then was before. Where people could concentrate more, like Michelangelo did his masterpiece in the Sistine chapel and you know, he didn't have the internet, you know, where he could get like details of hands and things like that. He had to actually, go out and maybe draw his own hand or, you know.

Vivian: He got dead bodies and he actually, dissected that himself.

Bow: Um. That was Da vinci (Daisy: Da vinci)

Vivian: Ok, but that's how they, you know.

sunyuting1 2008-06-06 17:04
分拆语音

3. 第2册 1..Art and Culture B1的29分03秒到43分45秒语音对应的文本


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SIDE B
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Bow: Yeah, I just think that people today are bombarded with information and it's just clouding their true goal, I mean, I think, I believe basically everybody, every human or anybody that's able to think, is an artist. In the fact that everybody has ideas, and I think Art was probably created, I don't, maybe it shouldn't even be called Art, but we have to label it something, but it just to be the idea of getting that concept or idea into the three-dimensional world. Out of your brain into your hands, where you can actually see it. And it's physical. And sometimes that, what, if you do a good job, and you choose the right medium, then maybe one person or many people will be inspired from that, get their own ideas from it and then do the same thing.

Daisy: Right, I agree. And whether that medium be anything from cooking to (Luke: There's a lot of overlap) whittling woods or you know, whatever it is, if you, just do something (Bow: House work), exactly. But I do agree that I think Art in our society, and our society in general, has become extremely superficial, and I think that's why you see, you know, what the, what's the guy that did the urinal? What's his name again? (Bow: Duchamp) Yeah, when he did that, that was something new and it was something shocking, but what, the danger of those type of things is that other artists get on that bandwagon and think, "well, let's do something just for the shock value." (Vivian: It's a trend) And there is one particular very, very rich artistic, can't think of his name? Maybe you guys know, in ah, he's based in New York, and one of his, famous things that sold for over a million dollars is a fish tank with three basketballs floating in it. And he also does the, you know, the clipping, he made a hedge out of? What's his name?

Bow: Kunst.

Daisy: Yeah, Kunst. He, I watched tan interview with him, and he had the three balls in the fish tank and he went up to, him.., and the reporter said to him, "So, you know, I want to, I don't want you to think I'm ignorant or anything, please forgive me, but can you explain to me what this means?"

Vivian: "Why are you shooting baskets next to the aquarium and hey, you missed the basket and it fell in" (Bow: No) He' said.

Bow: He's, he's very articulate.

Daisy: Right, right, he's, he's, obviously, an extremely intelligent man, and he went on this whole existentialist tangent about "Well, it's, you know, it's human existence floating in the body of particles, of space and time," but he said it obviously a lot more eloquently than I just did. And afterwards he got him to explain each piece of Art. And when you listen to this man speak, you gotta sit there and go "Wow, he's smart, and he's eloquent, and he's intelligent." And the reporter's last comment at the end of the piece was "Well, the one thing that I discover today, is that anyone can be a successful artist, in the 90"s, if he has a good vocabulary." And that's exactly what, you know, the point was.

Luke: Maybe, maybe what Art's function is these days, is maybe just to infuse a certain degree, of, like, if it's too quirky. If the actual Art itself is too quirky, actually you were saying about the overlapping of things. It's sort of how it comes into food. If you have a nicely prepared meal, a dish in front of you, and it's artistic in it's own way I there's color, there's form, there's shape there's a sculptural quality to a lot of food. That's gonna be a lot more enjoyable to eat. Same with like architecture, or landscaping and stuff. People, if people are aware of Art and informed about Art, and the principles that sort of define Art. Maybe they bring that, they can incorporate that into culture. If everybody's thinking in those sorts of ways and functional, functional furniture and whatever, everything else that just sort of has a little bit of a kinda arty, kinda cool vibe about it. It's just sort of makes for a more, a more nice over all, aesthetic -- nice over all day to day life.

Vivian: Why does Art, the definition of Art has changed a long time. When you look at the past Artists, you know Leonardo Da vinci or any of those people, Picasso. They weren't looking for fame when they drew those, those were, you know, came from within and they were trying to express themselves. Nowadays, people express themselves, why? -- to become famous. (Luke: Exactly) Because, they want to, you know, find or discover something new that no one else has done, which is kind of what we've been discussing so far as. History has been repeating itself, and there's nothing new and original anymore. But that's just it, it doesn't have to be original it could be anything that you feel or want to express on paper or through anything. And then anyone else can look at that and feel something to and that should be what Art is, not something that, you know, everybody tried, this kind of pants, and those kind of pants, well why don't we try pants like these, because no one else has.

Bow: But I think you hit on a point, It's everybody should feel. And I think that even if, like people generally think of art as, in the positive way, feeling good about it, or being inspired, but a feeling can also be negative. (Vivian: Right, right) It's the same as like, as Kunst put it, you got a negative impression from this guy, you know, and that, if you were a sculptor, maybe that would inspire you not to do what he's doing and actually, make this masterpiece, that a million people would be inspired by. So I think it's all relative.

Daisy: I think that's a valued point. And I do think that, you know, whatever, whatever debate, you're having, over the history of time, extremists have been everywhere. Whether they be radical feminists or whether they have, you know, this will certainly offend some people, the Nazis. You know, I mean, basically, they were all extremists, and we have learnt things from them. Whether it be, not to do that, or to do that, I think extremism definitely serves its point in society and it is a necessary thing, for growth?

Luke: But they shouldn't, they shouldn't be censored. They should, I think censoring, censoring them is wrong. Because they just go underground. I think it's alright to have them up there and just say, well that sucks for these reasons. I think we have to understand that.

Vivian: Well let's take the recent, recent example, Eminem, not the candy that melts in your hands, but the Artist, ok? Lots of people don't like his stuff, lots of parents disagree and want to ban him, and don't want their children listening to it. But that is a form of Art, too. Right?

Bow: I believe, it's sound, he doesn't sound like an intellectual, but I believe in his, his idea, that is. He's like, in his lyrics, even though they rhyme, he is talking like people talk, at least, that's what I heard when I was going to school.

Vivian: But that's rap, you know, that, we...

Bow: You are agreeing.

Vivian: Yeah, I agree. That's rap, I mean, just because it may not be the type of music that you listen to, but, and they say, "Oh, it's loud, there're just rhyming", but it's not necessarily true, a lot of it. really does have al lot to say.

Bow: And this is the contradiction, too. Most kids learn swear words from their parents, they hear it from their dad. At least in my neighborhood, everyone, dad's swear, you know, to say like oh, no this guy is swearing and he's saying fag and stuff, you heard that from your dad like ten years before.

Vivian: He learned it from his dad (Daisy: But I think...)

Bow: Exactly.

Daisy: But musically, rap, I think was a natural evolution, not just lyrically, but, especially rhythmically. It came from obviously black people. And pretty much, all of our modern music, they have created from, you know, Jazz to Blues, and the, and then it went to Soul to Funk. And rhythmically, it was the natural evolution of their music. So, it certainly plays an important role in our music development. I don't think it should be laughed at, there's bad rap and there's good rap, of course. But, you know, it's an important part of our musical develop-ment.

Vivian: Sure, I mean it could be criticized the opposite way around, and I mean, if all the teens in the world that liked rap got together and said "Mom and Dad, we don't like that old country music you're listening to" you know.

Daisy: Which they probably do.

Vivian: Well the honky-tonk stuff, I mean.

Luke: And and the thing, it's like, it's not the issue that rap music is offensive, or the rhythms are offensive, it's the things that they're saying, within them, in the, violence against women, and violence against gays and stuff. But I mean, it wouldn't be popular if there wasn't, if there weren't people who were sort of going for that. I like yeah, "that speaks to me," you know.

Luke: That speaks to me, you know, to a degree.

Vivian: And that is...

Bow: And it may not be necessarily the thing. Yeah, but I mean that's, that's kinda, that's the thing it taps into a certain vein and becomes popular.

Daisy: Right.

Vivian: But, that's, that's like you speaking for themselves, well I mean, that is the movement among, no longer the X generation, but is it the E-generation, or whatever. I mean, but the youth of not just America, but any. country, most of them want, you know, they've got funky hair, and funky clothes and they're listening to this music that's totally against abortion, and this and that or pro or whatever.

Vivian: But, hey, (Daisy: They want something that's out there.) think back twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years ago, there's was flower power, they were against this and that. (Daisy: The Beatles? Beatles) Yeah, sure. (Daisy: The Beatles was banned in some states in America) The youth of any time period, (Daisy: Sure) (Luke: It's a generation gap, yeah) through Art and music to express themselves (Luke: Those things change fast) (Bow: In a America?)

Daisy: But they were, they were.

Bow: Not in Australia, though?

Daisy: No.

Bow: So Australia loves the Beatles, but America hates them.

Daisy: But, actually I was gonna talk about what Luke was just saying. That, there are people out there, that are actually liking this stuff that Emimen or other rap artists are talking about.

Vivian: Sure, even adults.

Daisy: Even if it means, you know, killing women, or you know, raping your mother, or whatever he talks about. But maybe, I was, it's just an idea, what you were saying before about political correctness, maybe there are other people out there like yourself, that are really sick of this, "I've gotta watch my "Ps and 's, and I'm not allowed to call this person this, I'm not allowed to burn the flag, I'm not allowed to do this, I'm not allowed to do that, maybe they're sick of that, and they want to get out there and have this shocking stuffs and (Luke: It's a reflex).., yeah...

Vivian: And, and I wanted to make my point, I mean, for those people who are always arguing, why don't they go and, if there are so man~ people out there like that, they can go and educate their children to not do stuff like that and to, you know, follow conservative or whatever views that you have. I mean they don't go out, all they do is sit there and complain about, you know, oh they're rapping here and they're talking about this and that. Well, they're not educating their own children, that's a whole different topic, isn't it?

Luke: As long as it gets a discussion going...

Bow: The interesting thing that I've noticed, is that, we are talking about Emimem and lyrics and rap and stuff, and that's why in the states they became popular, was because they're hearing, "Oh my God, he just said fag or something," so like that. But, Emimem is popular here, and most people don't even know what he's saying. Why is that, do you think?

Vivian: It sounds good to them, maybe.

Bow: Is that what it is? Is it the music? The rhythm?

Daisy: Well, well, I have to say that I think there's a lot better rap out there rhythmically than Emimen, I think it's pretty straight forward. His rap, it's not exactly technical or complex. But I have to say that he is popular so he's obviously been marketed in this country, and it's come to this country. And, when you have, what do they have to compare to, Korean rap? you know, it's gotta be better than that sorry to say.

Vivian: If you wanna scrutinize it that precisely in detail, hey, it's all PR, and marketing, ok? That's the reason why he's up there. (Daisy: They've got money, probably) There's lots of other rappers who sit there and talk about dope and killing their Mamas and Papas...

Daisy: You look at what's that band out now, that is, all the controversy is around. Is it DJ. Doc? They've got, their cd is all about police brutality and their down on the police and everything.

Vivian: They're saying.

Daisy: That was popular twenty years ago in the States, and Western countries, and that's now coming in now. Perhaps that's a reflection of the movement of this culture, that they are becoming more open-minded and they're going through what we, probably, went through twenty years ago.

Bow: Or just a different thing, like I heard in Japan, a lot of popular music is about MSG. They don't want monosodium glutamate in their food, so that's kind of a big issue.

Vivian: More they could still borrowing from another culture, and not coming up with their own lyrics, or ideas?

Daisy: Well, I think it's probably, more along the line that this culture is now, actually, their experience and an element of freedom of speech. And I think that they are, it's, it must be exciting to them, all of sudden these kids, even if they are not great musicians, they have an opportunity to say. "I think this sucks that police are this way, and I think this is terrible. And that, that's a gmat, thing to happen I think. Because they have definitely been oppressed for a long time by their own people, not by other people, but by their own government.

Vivian: But it's still being censored, I mean, the Korean government still censors a lot of music and (Daisy: Sure) I mean, even, like you said, DJ Doc, or is it Mr. Seo Tae.li, you know, a lot of their lyrics, even whole songs are completely censored, because there're foul language or the material...

Daisy: Right, they might have like beeps and things in there but it's still better than twenty years ago. I know one Korean artist who brought his album out, and there was no profanity in it whatsoever. And it was just because his lyrics were about, I guess, socialist ideas, and humanity (Bow: Who was that?) Bob Dylan like type lyrics. And his album was on sale for one hour before the government confiscated every copy of it and wouldn't let it be sold in the county. And I think we've come a long way in twenty years, and this is a good thing. And if culture and... I think that's what creates Art, is if people have this ability to express themselves.

Luke: But the danger in that, is what, sort of what starts happening, you see it a lot in the Western cultures, where they have marketing down to such an Art... is that controversy sells. And people would say anything just to become famous, just to make money. So it's not about people's better interests and it's not about what you really feel anymore, what, what really, what you're trying to reflect out of society. It's just like being such a...so out there, and so weird and trying shock so many people, that they talk about you and they hate you, so a large part of Emimen's appeal was, you know (Daisy: People hate you), people hated him and some people really liked him.

Vivian: That's the reason why we gave him his fame.

Luke: Sure, Yeah, And the more controversial stuff and Madonna made a whole career out of it, like she's offended everybody all the way through, but always just like a little bit, like...

Vivian: Too cool to really, really hate for real.

Luke: She never went too far out there, but, I mean, that's, that's the thing.


sunyuting1 2008-06-06 17:06
分拆语音

4. 第2册1. Art and Culture B2的43分45秒到57分13秒结束语音对应的文本



Vivian: And that's the reason why governments restrict Art, including music and TV and what not so much, is because they're afraid, you know, take eastern cultures, for example, in comparison with Western cultures. They're afraid that their society is going to change too much, you know, similarly too, Western cultures. And then there's gonna be violence in schools and then there's, it's gonna be disrupting their homes and the nice culture that they have.

Daisy: I don't know, you know, you look at like some of the animated books and cartoons in 3apan. I think they're way more offensive, than some of the rap that comes out of the United States. But I think that at this age, don't every single one of us think that we can look at some type of Art or music or entertainer and say, ok, this is the real deal, or this is crap, this is, you know, this is just somebody go in it for the shock value. I think if you're at this age you have the ability to do that, (Vivian: Sure) the danger, of course, and I think what govern-ments are trying to protect is children. But, I think that should be, you know, the parents' responsibility, and not the government's responsibility.

Vivian: Well, that was my whole point, too. Government restrict, in that for the sake of children and teens and what's...

Luke: But that's where the families have to be more responsible. It is true that celebrities really are the role models for kids these days, that wasn't the case in the past. And celebrity itself was never like a great thing, I mean now, you know, someone's really beautiful, and they're on a catalog or something supermodels, I like, they may not have anything interesting to say but people want to hear what they have to say. It's kinda bizarre, you know.

Vivian: It was kinda like the Wheel of Fortune Vanna White deal, you know, she was on there for like ten years, and everyone's like "hot babe, hot babe", they used to bet on what color dress she'd wear, every day of the week. (Daisy: Really?) Yeah. But then, all of a sudden one day, what was it, the early nineties? All of a sudden they said "We wanna hear Vanna talk" and so she started to say "Hi", and then the next line after a couple of months was "Hi everyone" and then now she actually has two lines to say on each show.

Luke: And it used to be like, it used to be like, the thinkers, the writers, and politicians, philosophers that would sort of form public opinion, who would be the people who sort of defined what a culture was about and now, it says a lot. In that the media, and the stars of the media are the ones sort of, are considered to be the artists and visionaries and the ones that kids wanna emulate, wanna be like, and there the ones who have such sway.

Vivian: But I agree they have a lot of force but I still agree parents all the way control everything. If they uh, got a real good grip on their children from an early start, if all the parents did, you know, the masses all together, you know, got together and said, "Hey, we're really watching our kids, we're giving them good foundations and morals and..."

Bow: You have to be told not to fully trust the media.

Daisy: Well, Bow, you know I know you have a child, and I was wondering how do, how do you feel about, like probably, pornographic comic books or that type of influence with your child?

Bow: I personally like them, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't like her to see them that early on, but the thing that's kind of interesting is like, the fact that they say it takes a village to raise a child. It's true, because, if you think about like, for example, these days children in the world, in most developed countries, they play video games, that's a fun thing for them. But in Japan, the more popular games are very, very violent. But, the real violence takes place in American schools, who aren't allow to play those games, you know. So, why is it? Is it because they see TV, because they're oppressed, why doesn't that much violence happen in Japan?

Daisy: Maybe we don't know about, well, they don't have guns, right?

Bow: Is that why? Is it because of guns? You think that there wouldn't be as much violence in America without the guns? I mean, yeah.

Daisy: I think that, well, people wouldn't die as often, I guess.

Vivian: But isn't, it always the fact with the things you don't know, the inhibitions that you have, anyway, anything that you want to, it's not open for you, to, like if your parents say, "Don't touch? you wanna touch.

Daisy: Uh. Interesting point. Then could Art be defined as an expression of something that has been suppressed. Perhaps that the, the sexual comic books and that type of behavior in Japan, that, is so common, is sexual, because of sexual repression in their culture?

Vivian: Maybe.

Luke: Yeah, it's a probably pretty hard one to sift through, well, I mean.

Bow: It depends on the content, too. I mean if you think about like, in America they say, you know, "Don't look at Playboys when you're young.", or something, but yeah, we want to, cause we, we like naked chicks, you know. But it's not like bondage or tying up woman or repressing them or anything, it's just like...

Vivian: Like what? A woman with big boobs?

Bow: Yeah, exactly.

Luke: What's the difference between pornography and erotica, though. They say that pornography is racy and offensive and very base in crass.

Daisy: It degrades women.

Luke: But erotica is artistic. (Bow: Who are they?) People, in general, they define, you know pornography is pornography and erotica is erotica, and erotica has this higher standing. And it (Daisy: Artistic.) has more of an artistic element to it.

Daisy: Well, I don't know, but you know, exactly, what you just said that Brandon there, I think like that, goes back to the point I made before that, (Bow: I'm Bow) you know, America... Exactly, what you just said that, Bow, it goes back to the point I was talking about before, that in America, you know, women, you were saying that, it just seems natural looking at woman with big boobs, but maybe that's because American society is not sexually repressed.

Bow: I think that, they think that pornography is when women are being debased in film or (Daisy: Yeah, like putting dog collars on them), exactly, when they're making woman to look bad, whereas erotica is more a mutual consensual thing between men and woman.

Daisy: Yeah, I think that's acceptable pornography or erotica, if you like, as long as both parties are involved in some mutually acceptable act. That's okay.

Luke: What about the Robert Mapplethorpe? Pornography or Art? Robert Napplethorpe was a homosexual photographer who took pictures of black men's penises but he also took pictures of flowers. And he had an exhibition, in Boston, of the black men's penises and there was protests that "This is the pornography".

Vivian: O.K. Then he was just a queer with like two personalities, ok? How about this? In a newspaper like six months ago, it was the Herald or something like that, there was a picture in the culture/Art section, it was about some movie set where they had like five hundred nude people lying in the streets. Well, I was, I just happen to be reading the opposite page when my friend's daughter comes running up and my friend and I were reading this one article on the opposite side, but she comes and says "There, you know, there's butt-naked people all over the picture on the newspaper" I mean, and then my friend was very, you know, kind of revolted, and she was like "How could they put like, you know, bare naked people on the newspaper".

Daisy: Well, there's bare naked people when having sex, I don't think that there is anything wrong with the nude body. If, if your, if your, I think saying to a child, because that person is naked, it's a bad thing. Probably, it's gonna give the kid problems later in life.

Luke: What about why is alright to show a person naked if they've been killed or beaten and dragged through the streets of some city?

Bow: Or why is it ok?

Luke: To celebrate it.

Bow: Yes, on National Geographic where you can see African woman's breast. Why is that different?

Vivian: Yeah, why is that considered Art.

Daisy: As long as, if nudity is represented as something that's debased like a woman with a dog collar being whipped with a cat of nine tails. Then of course, there's something wrong with that. But the human body in itself, if it's naked and there's a picture of it being naked. I don't see that there's anything offensive about that, if there's something offensive about that then there's something wrong with my naked body.

Luke: What if it's a man with.., being whipped by a cat's nine tails?

Bow: Exactly, Robert Mapplethorpe, same thing, same guy. That's what he had. He had homosexuals, in weird positions, one guy was pissing in another guy's mouth, but then again he was a great photographer. He did, he made great black and white pictures.

Daisy: Fair enough, but both of those guys were kind of into it. I think the point that I'm getting is that a lot of pornography, if they have a woman in a dog color, with the cat of nine tails. It's suggesting something about a women's subservience, and submissiveness to a male. And that's wrong. If you are perpetuating that ideal of a woman, then to women, in general, that is degrading. But, you know, if, if, that was from a homosexual prospective acceptable, who am I to say, I'm nora male homosexual, so I don't know what is acceptable or not. But I am a woman, so I can, I can offer my opinion from that point of view.

Bow: What about lesbians?

Daisy: Lesbians? Well, they can do whatever they want to. I'm not a lesbian.

Bow: What do you think about them?

Daisy: What do I think of them?

Bow: Yeah.

Daisy: I think that's fine.

Bow: Really?

Vivian: She thinks it's great. But what if I was talking from a very conservative mother's view point, you know, there's lots of mothers who are against, for example, prayer in schools or, you know, certain, when you go to Art class, you see these pictures and paintings of nudes and whatever. I mean, they're totally against it. I mean. (Daisy: But those pictures aren't...) They're saying how can you argue that this is Art? I don't want my children exposed to this sort of thing at this early age or...

Daisy: But I don't think their children would be exposed to homosexual pictures. They might be exposed to, what about David? I mean, look at David that's a sculpture from hundreds and hundreds of years ago and that, you know, that.., he's nude, his genitals are showing. You can't censor that, you can't censor the entire Renaissance period.

Luke: That, that sculpture always made me feel really good. Actually.

Vivian: Did you guys ever, what is that, I don't know what it is called, but there is this hall where they've made like Ten Davids all around this hall and they've chopped off his... (Daisy: His penis?) Yeah.

Bow: The hall of Justice?

Vivian, Daisy: Ha Ha...

Bow: How about the difference between the, sculpture say like, David, where that, was accepted at that time and now it's pornography. But, I think, in his exhibition, people chose and pay money to go inside, if you if you believe that is pornography, and it's offensive, don't go in, don't pay.

Daisy: Exactly.

Vivian: Right.

Daisy: Right.

Vivian: But then what about when the artist publicized, it's not something that you choose or do not choose to go in and see, but (Daisy: But I think, it'll be pretty different...) you are forced to almost absorb it. You're forced to look at it in the middle of City Hall?

Luke: You have, just as other artists have the right to display their stuff and advertise it and try to give make them, a living for themselves. People have the right to say to disagree with it and I think that's the thing, that's the thing too, about art. Sometimes it'll shock and sometimes it'll annoy, sometimes it'll inspire, sometimes it'll offend. And that's the thing, that's its purpose, that's what it is supposed to do. And people can't, it can't be stifled to suppressed, it just has to make people like, take an active part, and it's great if it has that effect on people. Because a lot of things are really just watered down these days. And Art is one of these pure, like these good things. If it is done properly and it serves the purpose it's supposed to serve. It will get people riled up about something. That's important.

Daisy: And you know, even the way that women have been perceived through Art, you know, like the Botticelli Beauties, I mean, they were quite curvy, if you know what I mean, they were big women.

Bow: Voluptuous.

Daisy: And even in some of the paintings, their breasts were deformed (Vivian: Sure) deformed and that was like, their breasts had big lumps in them and knowing what we know today, and we look back at that, those women were in like developed stages of breast cancer.

Bow: Salvador Dali had like ants and things on women's genitals you know, just like...

Daisy: Right, right, but, he was, he was definitely disturbed, yeah, I love his Art but there was still definitely something, he, actually Salvador Dali. He had several paintings where women wear severed like their parts of their body were in different, in different areas. And there's actually, a killer on the loose in Europe that's doing the exact things out of Salvador Dali's paintings at the moment. So has that inspired him? I guess the guy was just crazy anyway and a fan of Salvador Dali's. But still it was interesting.

Vivian: Well you know, I thought it kind of ironical, how everything comes back to, well it can't be resolved anyway. Why, because people have opinions Art and culture. This is everyone expressing themselves. So it can never really be resolved. Is it wrong, is it right, is it beautiful, is it not. Like, Luke was making that point earlier. So it's kind of like a matter of freedom of speech, and that can't be resolved.

Bow: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Daisy: Yes, I was just about to say the same thing. And I think that you're right, it can't be resolved, but I think that's the purpose of Art, to, you know, inspire debate, to inspire thought, to inspire.

Vivian: And there's always going to be critics who don't agree.

sunyuting1 2008-06-06 18:05
分拆语音
1. 第2册1. Art and Culture的前14分钟49.6秒语音对应的文本

                1. Art and Culture

SIDE A


OK, today's topic is
art and culture
and this is kind of like a modern topic,
something we can kind of,
um,
get into here.
This is Viv.

Vivian:

Yes, well,
art and culture,
it's such a broad,
ah rather spectrum
to discuss,
You know,
I really have to admit
that I'd love to be
thought of as arty farty,
but I don't think I am,
so I'm just gonna turn it to you,
Bow.

Bow:
Hey, my name is Bow.
I consider myself arty fatty,
but, um,
yes I like things from,
everything from Hycroppoties to
Matisse to Picasso,
and Mondrian,
and culture,
you know everything from
the West Indies,
you know,
pygmies to Yoga.

Luke:
That's cool,
I don't,
I never really
thought I was arty,
I used to really try,
really hard to be arty.
I used to try to play guitar,
but I wasn't very good at that,
and then I tried painting,
and I wasn't very good at that.
But then I started painting guitars,
and um,
I have a whole collection
of painted guitars.
I call it "Guit-art"
and urn,
I hope I can start hanging it up
at museums pretty soon,
so look up for it.

Vivian:
And I got one of those
in my bathroom, too?

Luke:
Yeah,
talk to me,
if you need my number or whatever...

Daisy:

Anyway,
Let's get into it.

Luke:

O.K.

Daisy:

O.K. Well,
you know,
I often considered myself,
you know,
to have quite a good
appreciation of art.
But these days,
what constitutes art,
could be many different things.
So,
what do you think
then is Art,
and what makes Art,
Art.

Luke:

I guess the main thing
for me that
would constitute Art
is, um,
it's, well,
basically in it's purest form.
Art is just this random
spurting of creative
impulse,
like,
if you will.
And it doesn't really
have a purpose,
a functional purpose,
except for functional Art,
I guess.
Which by its own definition is,
has a purpose,
and has a function.
But, well, I mean,
just pure Art in itself is,
um, is something
that doesn't really serve any purpose,
like it,
it won't,
it won't grate your cheese,
and it won't,
you know make your
hair smell nice or anything.

Daisy:

So, then,
you're saying that Art is,
functional only for the person
that creates it?
Cause,
Paul Cezanne said that,
that Art was in the process,
not the finished product,
so, if it doesn't serve a purpose,
is it only serving some type of,
release for the artist himself?

Luke:
Or the appreciator
of the Art,
someone,
obviously,
people who appreciate Art,
appreciate,
the same that
was evident
when the art was created.

Daisy:
So then,
it does serve a purpose.

Luke:
Of course, 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。
personal purpose.

Bow:
Except for functional Art.

Luke:

Except for functional Art
like a really cool looking chair.
It's cool looking
and it maybe might,
make you feel something.
If it's red,
it might make you think,
"Ooh, I'm,
feeling very passionate,
that really speaks to me",
and then when you sit it in,
you're sitting down,
and,
hey...

Bow
: So, O.K.
What do you think about,...
Ducharnp,
and his Urinals
and things like that,
Do you believe that,
that was Art or not?

Luke:

I'd have to
see his stuff,
I guess.

Bow:

Well,
it's a urinal.

Luke:

It's a urinal?

Bow:
Yeah, he just took a urinal
off the wall.

Daisy:

But, wasn't he the first person
to ever do that?

Bow:
Well, that's the thing.

Daisy:

Right, I mean,
it's the same thing with Andy Warhol
and his cans of soup,
the fact that he did something different,
created a whole new
genre of Art,
which,
you know,
is artistic in itself
to be able to do something
individualistic.

Bow:

But, is it Art just because
of in that sense,
it's shocking,
because
no one's done it before.
So,...
is shocking
Art considered Art?

Luke:
Sure, I think it says
something about society,
it's a bit of a reflection of society.
I think that Andy Warhol
and the tomato cans,
was saying something about
like advertising,
and no one had been around like
this much like banners
and this iconographic sort of
representation of just everyday things
(Bow: According to Andy Warhol)
he blew that up.
But I mean,
a lot people responded to it,
and like the comic books
and stuff.
And just these like
really simple images
that are just everywhere
that becomes the part of
the collective consciousness.

Vivian:
O.K. But for simple me,
who's not interested in Art.
Who has no,
you know,
no idea,
no concept,
no grasp of aa in depth
part of any of the Arts.
For me,
I just define Art as music,
Art.
What else is there?

Daisy:

Yeah.

Vivian:

Yeah,
well like any sort of performance,
ok. That's Art.
It is what someone says,
it's what,
I define it
in my simple mind,
but then,
when you guys talk like
this then it sounds to me like,
it's any sort of simple personal
(Daisy: Expression?)
expression of yourself,
of your emotions,
of yourself,
of anything,
so,
dance through music,
through song,
through,
through any of those venuses
, you can express yourself,
and that is Art.

Daisy:

You know,
Alice Walker,
who wrote,
the movie
"The Color Purple",
with the book,
she wrote an essay about
Art and women artists,
because it's been
quite a struggle
for women
to become successful artists,
especially,
you know,
way back in the 50's
or in the 40's.
But, she was saying that,
you know,
it's been a struggle for women,
but think about
what it was like
for the slaves,
in America,
when they first came here.
Not only were women,
like chattels
and basically
worked all the time.
If they were,
did have an artistic soul,
how were they going to express it?
And she was saying that
they expressed it
in everyday things.
Look at the quilts
that African American women made.

Vivian:

I was just about to say that.

Daisy:

Things like that.

Vivian:

Look at the clothes a
nd the quilts that they made.
Those are expression of themselves.

Daisy: T

he negro
spirituals
that they sang
while they were working on,
you know,
the farms
and things like that.
There was always
an expression of Art,
even though,
they were in a position
in society,
where they weren't able to
sell it
or share it
with other people.
They share,
shared it with their family,
and passed it on as
heirlooms to their family.

Bow:

And through their Art,
they have created
their own culture.

Daisy:

Right.

Bow:
And I believe that
this is something that,
they are forgetting about,
here in Korea.
I think that they
used to have
a really strong culture
and they had,
great art,
they still do,
I mean,
some old things.
But they're losing that in the face of,
you know,
capitalism and ...
I think
Korea is really losing its
national identity that it
once had.
Whereas uh,
if they could take some of those
traditional Arts that were so strong,
and mix them with
modern day ideas.
Then they would create
their own national identity
and then create their own culture,
again.
And,
for bands,
and stuff like that,
they just rip off other music
and just change the language
is not doing that.
I think that,
you know,
taking some of the...
I'm not a musician,
but in all aspects
of if in fashion.
They actually started a little bit in,
for example,
the Korean traditional clothes,
they're making them more
contemporary looking
but they are based on the design
of the Korean style.
Architecture,
not so much,
it's more based on,
again capitalism
(Luke: Function)
and population,
and you know,
putting as many people
into the maximizing
the space
and things like that.
And whereas traditional style,
Korean architecture,
was just amazing.
It was,
there was so much spirituality
and philosophy in it,
that it,
it came,
you know,
from these people's inspirations and
their culture
and they created
these great pieces of,
these great works.
And for one example,
is take Japan.
Japan has a very strong
contemporary national identity.
If you see,
well,
ok,
whatever,
whoever studied what.
like I studied,
for example,
I studied architecture,
so when I see
a contemporary style building,
I can tell you
if it's Japanese or not.
If you here
a piece of music,
that,
you know,
probably can figure out
that it's Japanese contemporary style,
or clothing
or painting.
They have, um,
they have always have been good at,
doing that,
getting together
and saying that,
we're gonna take a piece of our
tradition and we’re gonna mix it
with this new stuff.
Whereas in other countries,
um,
they're just taking it on,
full on.
All Right.

Bow:

Well, I mean,
it is starting a little bit here,
but it's not,
they don't quite have the idea.

Daisy:

Yeah,
which gets back to the point
I think we were talking about before,
with the urinal
and the,
you know,
and Andy Warhol.
What they did
was incredibly simplistic,
you know,
in the basest
form of simplicity,
ripping a urinal,
you know,
off a wall
or putting painting
a picture of a soup can.

Vivian:
They weren't trying to
complicate it
anymore than it was.

Daisy:
But,
it was the fact that,
it, it had never been down
before and it was shocking,
and that,
I think is the essence of most Art.
Something that is original
and individualistic,
and the problem here is,
of course,
you can take styles
and blend them
to create something new.
But if you're just
borrowing and doing something that
is old and been done before,
and you're not putting...
Korea for example,
Their old,
historical art,
and their historical music is
that uniquely Korean.
And we don't have their Asian scale
or we don't in music,
we don't have their Asian design,
their uniquely Korean design.
And if they are able
to encourage that,
make it modern,
and make something that is new,
and just not borrow songs
from everyone else.
Then they will have
a complete and whole
artistic culture.

Luke:

But Art is,
informed by many things
and depending on where the,
it says lot about
the culture.
And the
what the values of a culture are,
and it says a lot about
the values of...
and culture
in turn
feeds off Art.
There's a bit of a
hybridization and cross-pollinization
of those two things.
Because
when you get right down to it,
everything kind of has been done,
everything has kind of been said.
But as cultures evolve
and as they cross-pollinate,
ideas spread around,
people take that
and things germinate
and these,
weird new formations come up.
And I think that's the thing, like,
in this day an age,
where everything has
really just been done
to death.
It seems,
and shock value is the only thing
you can do now,
like taking, like,
religious icons
and pissing on them or something.
That's not,
that doesn't really seem like art...
it kind of is but I mean,
there's so much stuff
you can get just in the world around you
and just like taking it
with you and borrowing it
and making a pastiche of stuff.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian:
When you travel to a different country,
what is the whole point of travelling there.
Because there,
it's,
you want to experience their culture
and their national whatever.
You wanna,
you wanna see,
"Oh, this is their national dress,
these are their buildings,"
this is the reason
why this country is unique.
Why do you wanna visit Vietnam?
Why do you wanna
go to Japan?
Well, I wanna see them
in their cultural,
this is why their country is
different from ours.
You see all these Koreans
shows on TV.
They go to Bulgaria,
they go to Canada,
they go to Germany.
Why?
Because,
oh,
in this country,
they have these huge beer halls
and they drink beers in these like fifty-foot tall
glasses or whatever,
you know.
That is makes
that country distinct
and unique and it's own.
And,
ok,
we can't live in the past,
but,
you modernize that
to configure it with today.

Daisy:

Right.

Bow:

I think that that's the problem.
If you go to other museums,
and look at other cultures,
and their Art,
and you study their culture
through their Art.
It's usually,
in a display an exhibition
set up chronologically,
you see from this is what
(Vivian: Time)..
. Yes, time,
this is what is was
then and it's moved to here
and moved into,
you know,
certain areas
into contemporary times.
But,
here,
this is the strange part,
it goes up to a certain time.
And,
that's pretty much it.
All Stops...
Yeah,
it's not evolving.

Bow:

Yeah,
that's the end of that.

Daisy:

That's not evolving.

Luke:
Well, that was a,
that was a,...
I think that was a political thing.
Wasn't there the,
one of the presidents
I think,
had this big industrial boom.
And the only emphasis that
was that ever put on anything was
like we have to develop everything,
we have to make buildings quick.
(Bow: Exactly)
And just like we have to
make as many and as fast as possible,
and screw the Art.
(Vivian: But thats the whole)
And just now,
I think that they're coming back to this place where
, it's sort of like,
we have to,
we have to live in this city,
we have to make it livable,
we have to make it nice
(Daisy: Aesthetically)
aesthetically and that's the artistic,
that's the artistic element
which has sort of gotten
(Vivian: Lost??)
put on the back-burner
throughout the
whole development
of a lot of these cities.., in...

Bow:

That's why they lost their national identity.
Because,
you, it's got to be a consistent thing,
you can't just stop it dead-on
and say like
"We will just fix it later once we
get a bunch of money."

Daisy:
But, it is their, culture,
ok, for us as far us to
come in and say
(Vivian: Criticize?)
this is wrong and
you have to change this.

Bow:

I don't think we're saying it's wrong.
It's just,
I mean in our opinions,
yeah, it's our opinions,
yeah,
it might be wrong.
But yeah,
you know,
we can't necessarily say that
we can give advice like,
you know,
this is what everybody should do.
I mean it,
just seems common sense.

Vivian:

Not in defense of the Korean side,
because we aren't attacking
I want to say,
but,
I mean,
look at the Korean situation.
We're saying,
yeah,
go back to your roots
and pull from it
, you know,
and develop,
modernize it,
so that,
you know,
it blends in with,
you know other ideas of today.
But at the same time,
look at the Korean culture,
fifty years ago,
the country was devastated,
they lost everything
and everything was in,
you know,
shambles on the ground and
they rebuilt
the city of Seoul for example,
and now it is not a third world country,
but it is a very much industrialized city,
that can compete with many other,
you know, t
hey're in the what top ten
cities,
biggest cities of the world.


sunyuting1 2008-06-06 20:53
分拆语音

2. 第2册 1.Art and Culture的14分钟49.6秒到29分03秒语音对应的文本



Daisy:

Well, you know,
I think that
where this discussion is going
can be a,
can relate to any country
in the world.
Because
culture and Art,
I think
go hand in hand.
Art is part of a culture
in many different cultures
express their souls
in different artistic ways
that may offend
many Westerners'
artistic sensibilities.
So, where do we
draw the line,
where do we look at a culture
and say
"this is ok,
but this is not ok"
or is it even OK,
for us to go into
a culture and do that?

Bow:

O.K.
I was asked this one time,
just to determine
how people think about
Art or not.
If they're,
whether they're
artists or not businessmen,
they say if there's a house
and in this house there is
a Mona Lisa,
the original,
and the...
(Vivian: Oh really?)
Yes,
and the original Mona Lisa a
nd there's the painting
of Jackson Pollock
where he painted the whole
canvas just black.
(Daisy: Right)
And there's a fire in the house
and you can only save one painting.
You appreciate Art,
but you only have a chance
to save one,
which one would you save?

Vivian:

Well,
people would say Mona Lisa
because you can always
go and paint other canvas black,
Right?
(Bow: No)
But, at the same time,
that's supposed t
o be a piece of Art.

Bow:

I don't know.
What is your opinion?
(Vivian: That is the question)
The question is
what would you save?

Daisy:

I wouldn't.
I would save myself.

Bow:

No, you can,
you have,
you have a chance,
you can save one.
You are an art-lover.

Vivian:

Like I said,
yeah,
probably the Mona Lisa,

Obviously that
is the right answer?

Bow:

No, There's no right
or wrong answer,
just like,
do you know
why you would save that?

Vivian:

Yeah,
I just said.
Because you could
paint another canvas black.
(Daisy: Black)
and then pass it off
as the same painting
if you wanted.

Daisy:

Well...

Luke:

Plus it's worth more.

Bow:

Well,
that's what the thing is it's like,
(Daisy: It's worth more.)
do you think Art is,
you know...?

Daisy:

Dose it have a price on it...
I probably
if I really wanted to
save something,
I'd maybe
save the Pollock.
Because,
I don't like the Mona Lisa.
But that's just a,
you know,
I would hang a piece of pa,
I would hang a piece of Art on my wall,
because I liked it.
But my question was more
getting towards like,
cultural relativism.
You know,
what is,
is everything Art,
including traditions
or you know,
(Luke: Customs?)
culture,
cultural customs,
is it relative to culture?
Or do we have the right
to go into that country and say
that this is wrong.

Vivian:

O.K. And that is the debate
even in America today,
they're saying OHey,
is burning of the flag is that
symbolic is that showing,
you know,
what is that,
the freedom of
(Luke: Expression...)
expression or
is it offending someone.
That's kind of along those line.
You can never say
what is right or wrong?

Daisy:

But that's ok.
For Americans to say that,
to discuss that,
because they're Americans.
When I'm talking about
is people going into other cultures
and saying this is
right or this is wrong.

Luke:

Well, I mean,
why not?
It's been happening over
the history of Art and culture,
I mean.
Romans and Greeks and
(Vivian: History)
and everybody and Europeans
and Africans,
and everything has been
mixed together,
in kind of an eclectic mix,
and the...

Daisy:

So it's ok,
for organizations,
like the U. N.
to go in to countries
and say
this is violating human rights,
for example,
Eskimo culture,
for thousands of years,
they would kill their babies,
because they didn't have
enough food to eat.
That was a tradition,
obviously,
born out of necessity,
like most traditions are.
But in a culture like that,
say, you know,
obviously,
it's not like that,
today.
But,
you know
fifty years ago
it was.
Is it ok for organizations
like the U. N. to go in
and say it's wrong,
or eating dog meat in Korea?
Are allowed to go in there
and say that that's wrong?

Bow:

So you're talking about more
in the aspect of culture
(Daisy: Yes)

Vivian:

The thing that are part of their culture.
O.K. For someone
from another society
where that not is acceptable
to come into,
step into a different society
where it is perfectly acceptable,
I mean,
it's not done intentionally
with the thought
of "Oh,
I'm killing a baby or Oh,
I'm killing dogs,
because
for the pleasure,
what not?"
But here it's just simply
a part of the culture.
It is a food or,
you know.
Stamina food,
or whatever.

Daisy:

So, is that OK?
What do you think,
Luke?

Luke:

Um,
I, kind of,
it's ...
a kind of got to
sit on the fence
on that one.
I think there,
there is a real danger to people
going to other countries
and taking this attitude
of cultural superiority
which I really resent.
I don't think that
Western culture...
Western culture is superior to any other culture,
but there is a sort of post colonial attitude
among a lot of countries
where they,
to a degree,
they are interested in
what the more developed
countries think of them
and their practices
and everything.
But sometimes
there's a bit of like danger
in these more developed,
quote unquote,
developed countries
coming in
and criticizing stuff.
I think there's,
there's got to be
enlightenment on both sides
and agreement on
there being differences
and just,
and interaction.
And I think that the main thing is
communication and
having these things
out in the open
so that people can discuss them.
That's a dangerous movement,
or this might be opening another can of worms
but with the political correctness
aspect of things back home.
And how people were
told to stifle their ideas
rather than express them.
For example,
there was,
a bar I used to frequent,
it was a sort of slash gallery,
I think,
Bow, you might remember this.
It was a,
the patrons were encouraged
to paint on the canvases,
with paints that were left out,
and just create
whatever they wanted
as they were drinking a
nd socializing.
It was a really nice atmosphere.
And, at want point someone made a painting,
it was sort of a collage of things.
But there was,
a swastika,
that was on the painting,
is was very prominent,
it was a sort of a dark painting
over all.
And later,
it just sort of,
was found on the floor,
ripped to shreds.
And I think
that was really weird
that someone would,
would rather,
I guess that's sort of a reaction to Art.
And sometimes art has those reactions,
but I think
it's dangerous
when people
refuse to acknowledge those things
and refuse to accept them,
there's sort of the idea
of censorship that's going on.
And I think that's
really dangerous
because,
just by pretending some attitude
or some practices,
don't exist,
does not mean that
they will cease to exist,
I think,
the basic thing is
people have to be
in communication with each other
like with the dog issue,
the eating dogs in Korea.
I can't judge it,
but I can,
I can just speak with Koreans about
my opinions on it,
and they're,
free to,
and like say their opinions to me.
I don't think I'm right,
I don't think they're right.
I think we are just people
who have different opinions.
And Art is sort of a stimulus
for bringing those opinions out.

Daisy:

And also,
you know,
I think that
you know,
you look at some cultures
quite a funny story actually.
There was this one culture,
in New guinea
and you know,
Christianity has been
the fastest spreading thing
I think in Western culture,
much more so probably
than the internet.
That,
the,
some missionaries
from the United States
went to this,
went to New Guiana
and they were just travelling around
trying to
convert the chris..,
the natives there,
to christianity.
And the ironic thing is that
they went in to this one tribe,
and the tribe
ate the missionaries.
They were cannibals,
you know.
That's funny,
I mean,
that's one example
of Western people not understanding
other cultures
and going in there
without any knowledge,
I mean,
these people didn't know
they were walking around
in the bush,
and they were basically,
you know,
meat.

Luke:

Exactly,
I would never,
I would never criticize Korea,
I've chosen to leave here for a long time,
not because I hate the place,
and I have great criticisms about it,
if I'm asked about it,
I'll point out things that,
you know,
I'm not that happy about.
But I can do that
with any where I am at,
and you know,
I definitely would not
want to go to a country
and say
"Ah, you are doing it all wrong,
blah,
blah,
blah,
back where
I come from,
blah,
blah,
blah,
" you know.
And some people have that attitude,
and I think that's probably the worst
kind of attitude you can come.
Cause,
there's so much to learn from different cultures.
And that's what,
that's really what it's all about,
ultimately.

Vivian:

But that's just it,
of course,
there are things that you don't agree
with certain cultures with,
same with me.
There's lots of things
that I don't agree with,
but that's the fact of the matter,
the fact of the matter is you are in a situation
and a different culture
and a different society where you,
as long as you are there,
you should be accepting to their cultures,
there, even though,
there are things that you don't agree with.
Now,
when you look at the large scale ...

Luke:

Well, I'm not accepting of my own culture,
there's a lot of things about
my own culture I don't like.

Vivian:

Sure, that's what I'm saying,
there's lots of things we don't agree about.
But when you look at the large scale
and then you see this dominant country
coming into a smaller country,
it's like the opposite effect
and yet you have more presence there;
so you have more,
you know,
power to kind of
pressure the people
(Luke: Sure)
or the culture.

Bow:

But having a little bit of your own culture
in another country
does make it
a hell of a lot easier
to live there.
I don't think I,
if there wasn't any part of our culture
whatsoever,
I don't think we could
last as long as we have here.

Daisy:

Right,
I think that's probably true.
And actually,
when you um,
you go and you live in another culture,
I think it's also true that you will
absorb things of that culture
as well.
And you do change
and evolve,
and that's great thing.
I think,
you know,
if, you are learning
or you are teaching in some,
you know,
even,
not even know
at the conscious level.
That's wonderful.
But, I was wondering,
you know,
like most of,
we talked about traditions
and culture
and a lot of those traditions are also
perceived as Art as well,
especially like,
you know,
in countries that,
Luke brought out before,
you know,
in the middle east.
A lot of their Art
and their practices
and their rituals,
if you consider that to be Art,
are taken from
a religious perspective
as well,
which is very interesting.

Luke:

Yeah,
religious Art,
and political art,
are probably the gawdiest kinds of Art,
I think.
But...

Daisy:

You think?

Luke:

Yeah,
but I think that that's alright.
I think that,
if you look at the old
propaganda posters
from the cold war
and stuff
(Daisy: Sure),
and or if you just look at the pictures
of you know,
Christ and just crying
and everybody crying,
there were so like
over the top
and just,
unnatural,
that they sort of,
they are sort of
memorable
for that reason.

Bow:

But you have to remember that
those artists
or artisans
who made that stuff were
products of their own environment,
you have learned f
orm that time on,
you've experienced
what you have in your life.
That's what they dedicated their lives to,
they had a certain philosophy that
we don't know.
I think that some of that stuff
is amazing,
the Gothic cathedrals,
that genera,
that generations
and generations of,
families fathers
and sons would work on.
Just to make this..,
they had the same concept
and they had the same goal,
I mean,
that would never happen
these days,
in these days.

Daisy:

So I guess,
what we are probably getting
on to here is that,
is that Art is a product of your own environment
and that time certainly religion was such a big deal,
that you were,
you were creating
a lot of religious Art,
or architecture
and you know
then we go into the phase of,
you know,
post modernism
where you have,
you know,
the black canvases
and things like that.
(Luke: Existentialism)
Yeah, existentialism.
So, is it,
actually,
that the Art is imitating life,
or is life imitating Art?

Luke:

I think they mutually inform
and influence each other.

Vivian:

That's like asking,
was the chicken or the egg,
they both influence each other,
of course.
But
anything that you're unfamiliar
with is sort of like
Art to you.
Like when you enter into a culture
where you are not familiar,
everything is unique and different
to you and
becomes a form of Art,
like Luke was saying religion
or you know,
not just tapestries
or paintings
but the actual religion itself is an art
when you not familiar with it.
When it's everyday
to you it's nothing new,
it's no big deal.

Bow:

The difference I see
in Art and culture,
today is that,
in the past,
there was always
a period of time
or movements
and now,
because,
maybe because of all that or,
maybe because to go
against all of that,
there's, really not any sort of movement,
no sort of
(Daisy: Right)
direction,
it seems to me.


Daisy:

It's very static,
isn't it?

Bow:

It is very static,
and it just seems like
everything is
gonna turn into this,
gonna turn into chaos it
almost seems.

Daisy:

Right, right,
I think that's true not just in
visual Art,
either,
I think the music industry
for several,
maybe even,
over a decade now,
has been extremely static.
And there's only been
maybe one or two artists
that have really been,
done inspiring things
. But,
I think perhaps,
maybe we feel this way,
but
do not think that
at the end of probably
the classical period
or, you know,
the renaissance period
(Vivian: There was a dead period)
that there was,
you know,
this plane of levelling out,
perhaps,
you know,
this is what's happening to us,
we're ready to move into the next...

Luke:

Or look at Retro everything,
everything that's supposedly new,
all the new trends and fads that
are coming out here
are borrowing like shamelessly
from the past
(Daisy: Exactly),
past twenty years,
past thirty years,
forty years.

Vivian:

Well, in any sort of movement you go
up and down
and up and down,
and then you kind of plateau off
and then you start all over again,
like, Luke mentioned,
with fashion
anything that is popular today,
not just today,
you know,
five years ago,
that was the trend thirty years ago.
And what's today
is popular today.
Twenty five years ago.

Bow:

But you don't start off
from the same starting point,
and that's
where it gets kinda mixed up.
It's because,
and I think it
kind of parallels the evolution of technology.
Like information,
just the amount of information
that is going into our brains,
these days,
then was before.
Where people could concentrate more,
like Michelangelo
did his masterpiece
in the Sistine chapel
and you know,
he didn't have the internet,
you know,
where he could get like details of
hands and things like that.
He had to actually,
go out and maybe draw his own hand
or, you know.

Vivian:

He got dead bodies
and he actually,
dissected that himself.

Bow:

Um. That was Da vinci
(Daisy: Da vinci)

Vivian:

Ok, but that's how they,
you know.

sunyuting1 2008-06-06 22:40
3. 第2册 1..Art and Culture B1的29分03秒到43分45秒语音对应的文本


------
SIDE B
------

Bow:

Yeah,
I just think that
people today
are bombarded
with information
and it's just clouding
their true goal,
I mean,
I think,
I believe basically everybody,
every human
or anybody that's able to think,
is an artist.
In the fact that
everybody has ideas,
and I think Art was probably created,
I don't,
maybe it shouldn't
even be called Art,
but we have to label it something,
but it just to be the idea
of getting that
concept or idea
into the three-dimensional world.
Out of your brain into your hands,
where you can actually see it.
And it's physical.
And sometimes that,
what,
if you do a good job,
and you choose the right medium,
then maybe one person
or many people
will be inspired from that,
get their own ideas from it
and then do the same thing.

Daisy:
Right,
I agree.
And whether that medium be
anything from cooking to
(Luke: There's a lot of overlap)
whittling woods
or you know,
whatever it is,
if you,
just do something
(Bow: House work),
exactly.
But I do agree that
I think Art
in our society,
and our society in general,
has become extremely superficial,
and I think that's
why you see,
you know,
what the,
what's the guy that did the urinal?
What's his name again?
(Bow: Duchamp)
Yeah,
when he did that,
that was something new and it was something shocking,
but what,
the danger
of those type of things is that
other artists get on that
bandwagon and think,
"well, let's do something just
for the shock value."
(Vivian: It's a trend)
And there is one particular very,
very rich artistic,
can't think of his name?
Maybe you guys know,
in ah,
he's based in New York,
and one of his,
famous things that sold
for over a million dollars
is a fish tank
with three basketballs floating in it.
And he also does the,
you know,
the clipping,
he made a hedge out of?
What's his name?

Bow:

Kunst.

Daisy:

Yeah, Kunst. He,
I watched tan interview with him,
and he had the three balls
in the fish tank
and he went up to, him..,
and the reporter said to him,
"So, you know,
I want to,
I don't want you to think I'm ignorant
or anything,
please forgive me,
but can you explain to me
what this means?"

Vivian:

"Why are you shooting baskets next to
the aquarium and hey,
you missed the basket and it fell in"
(Bow: No) He' said.

Bow:

He's,
he's very articulate.

Daisy:

Right, right,
he's, he's, obviously,
an extremely intelligent man,
and he went on this
whole existentialist tangent about
"Well, it's,
you know, i
t's human existence floating
in the body of particles,
of space and time,"
but he said it obviously
a lot more eloquently
than I just did.
And afterwards he got him
to explain each piece of Art.
And when you listen to
this man speak,
you gotta sit there and go
"Wow, he's smart
, and he's eloquent,
and he's intelligent."
And the reporter's last comment
at the end of the piece was
"Well,
the one thing that
I discover today,
is that anyone
can be a successful artist,
in the 90"s,
if he has a good vocabulary."
And that's exactly what,
you know,
the point was.

Luke:

Maybe,
maybe what
Art's function is these days,
is maybe just to infuse a certain degree,
of, like,
if it's too quirky.
If the actual Art itself is too quirky,
actually you were saying about
the overlapping of things.
It's sort of how it comes into food.
If you have
a nicely prepared meal,
a dish in front of you,
and it's artistic in it's own way
I there's color,
there's form,
there's shape there's a sculptural quality
to a lot of food.
That's gonna be
a lot more enjoyable to eat.
Same with like architecture,
or landscaping and stuff. People,
if people are aware of Art
and informed about Art,
and the principles that
sort of define Art.
Maybe they bring that,
they can incorporate that into culture.
If everybody's thinking
in those sorts of ways and functional,
functional furniture
and whatever,
everything else
that just sort of has a little bit of a kinda arty,
kinda cool vibe about it.
It's just sort of makes for a more,
a more nice over all,
aesthetic -- nice over
all day to day life.

Vivian:

Why does Art,
the definition of Art
has changed a long time.
When you look
at the past Artists,
you know
Leonardo Da vinci
or any of those people,
Picasso.
They weren't looking for fame
when they drew those,
those were,
you know,
came from within
and they were
trying to express themselves.
Nowadays,
people express themselves,
why? --
to become famous.
(Luke: Exactly)
Because,
they want to,
you know,
find or discover something new
that no one else has done,
which is kind of
what we've been discussing so far as.
History has been repeating itself,
and there's nothing new and original anymore.
But that's just it,
it doesn't have to be
original it could be anything
that you feel or
want to express on paper
or through anything.
And then anyone else can look at that
and feel something to
and that should be what Art is,
not something that,
you know,
everybody tried,
this kind of pants,
and those kind of pants,
well why don't we try pants like these,
because no one else has.

Bow:

But I think you hit on a point,
It's everybody should feel.
And I think that even if,
like people generally think of art as,
in the positive way,
feeling good about it,
or being inspired,
but a feeling can also be negative.
(Vivian: Right, right)
It's the same as like,
as Kunst put it,
you got a negative impression
from this guy,
you know,
and that,
if you were a sculptor,
maybe that would inspire you not to do
what he's doing and actually,
make this masterpiece,
that a million people
would be inspired by.
So I think it's all relative.

Daisy:

I think that's a valued point.
And I do think that,
you know,
whatever,
whatever debate,
you're having,
over the history of time,
extremists
have been everywhere.
Whether they be
radical feminists
or whether they have,
you know,
this will certainly offend some people,
the Nazis.
You know,
I mean,
basically,
they were all extremists,
and we have learnt things from them.
Whether it be,
not to do that,
or to do that,
I think extremism definitely serves its point in society
and it is a necessary thing, f
or growth?

Luke:

But they shouldn't,
they shouldn't be censored.
They should,
I think censoring,
censoring them is wrong.
Because they just go underground.
I think it's alright to have them up there and just say,
well that sucks for these reasons.
I think we have to understand that.

Vivian:

Well let's take the recent,
recent example,
Eminem,
not the candy that melts in your hands,
but the Artist,
ok? Lots of people don't like his stuff,
lots of parents disagree
and want to ban him,
and don't want their children listening to it.
But that is a form of Art, too.
Right?

Bow:

I believe,
it's sound,
he doesn't sound like an intellectual,
but I believe in his,
his idea,
that is.
He's like,
in his lyrics,
even though they rhyme,
he is talking like people talk,
at least,
that's what I heard
when I was going to school.

Vivian:

But that's rap,
you know,
that, we...

Bow:

You are agreeing.

Vivian:

Yeah,
I agree.
That's rap,
I mean,
just because it may not be
the type of music that you listen to,
but, and they say,
"Oh, it's loud,
there're just rhyming",
but it's not necessarily true,
a lot of it. really does have al lot to say.

Bow:

And this is the contradiction, too.
Most kids learn
swear words
from their parents,
they hear it from their dad.
At least in my neighborhood,
everyone,
dad's swear,
you know,
to say like oh,
no this guy is swearing
and he's saying fag and stuff,
you heard that
from your dad like ten years before.

Vivian:

He learned it from his dad
(Daisy: But I think...)

Bow:

Exactly.

Daisy:

But musically,
rap, I think was a natural evolution,
not just lyrically,
but, especially rhythmically.
It came from obviously black people.
And pretty much,
all of our modern music,
they have created from,
you know,
Jazz to Blues,
and the,
and then it went to
Soul to Funk.
And rhythmically,
it was the natural evolution of their music.
So,
it certainly plays
an important role
in our music development.
I don't think
it should be
laughed at,
there's bad rap
and there's good rap,
of course.
But,
you know,
it's an important part of our musical
develop-ment.

Vivian:

Sure,
I mean it could be
criticized the opposite way around,
and I mean,
if all the teens in the world
that liked rap got together
and said
"Mom and Dad,
we don't like that
old country music you're listening to"
you know.

Daisy:

Which they probably do.

Vivian:

Well the honky-tonk stuff,
I mean.

Luke:

And and the thing,
it's like,
it's not the issue that
rap music is offensive,
or the rhythms are offensive,
it's the things that they're saying,
within them,
in the,
violence against women,
and violence against gays and stuff.
But I mean,
it wouldn't be popular
if there wasn't,
if there weren't people
who were sort of going for that.
I like yeah,
"that speaks to me,"
you know.

Luke:

That speaks to me,
you know,
to a degree.

Vivian: And that is...

Bow:

And it may not be necessarily the thing.

Yeah,
but I mean that's,
that's kinda,
that's the thing it taps
into a certain vein
and becomes popular.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian:

But, that's,
that's like you speaking for themselves,
well I mean,
that is the movement among,
no longer the X generation,
but is it the E-generation,
or whatever
. I mean,
but the youth of not just America,
but any. country,
most of them want,
you know,
they've got funky hair,
and funky clothes
and they're listening to this music
that's totally against abortion,
and this and that
or pro or whatever.

Vivian:

But,
hey,
(Daisy: They want something that's out there.)
think back twenty,
thirty,
forty,
fifty years ago,
there's was flower power,
they were against this and that
. (Daisy: The Beatles? Beatles)
Yeah, sure.
(Daisy: The Beatles was banned in some states in America) T
he youth of any time period,
(Daisy: Sure)
(Luke: It's a generation gap, yeah)
through Art and music to express themselves
(Luke: Those things change fast)
(Bow: In a America?)

Daisy:

But they were,
they were.

Bow:

Not in Australia,
though?

Daisy:

No.

Bow:

So Australia loves the Beatles,
but America hates them.

Daisy:

But,
actually I was gonna talk about
what Luke was just saying.
That,
there are people out there,
that are actually liking this stuff that
Emimen
or other rap artists
are talking about.

Vivian:

Sure,
even adults.

Daisy:

Even if it means,
you know,
killing women,
or you know,
raping your mother,
or whatever he talks about.
But maybe,
I was,
it's just an idea,
what you were saying
before about political correctness,
maybe there are other people out there like yourself,
that are really sick of this,
"I've gotta watch my "Ps and 's,
and I'm not allowed
to call this person this,
I'm not allowed to burn the flag,
I'm not allowed to do this,
I'm not allowed to do that,
maybe they're sick of that,
and they want to
get out there
and have this shocking stuffs and
(Luke: It's a reflex)..,
yeah...

Vivian:

And,
and I wanted to make my point,
I mean,
for those people
who are always arguing,
why don't they go and,
if there are so man~ people out there like that,
they can go
and educate their children
to not do stuff like that and to,
you know,
follow conservative or
whatever views that you have.
I mean they don't go out,
all they do is sit there
and complain about,
you know,
oh they're rapping here
and they're talking abou
t this and that.
Well,
they're not educating their own children,
that's a whole different topic,
isn't it?

Luke:

As long as it
gets a discussion going...

Bow:

The interesting thing that I've noticed,
is that,
we are talking about
Emimem and lyrics
and rap and stuff,
and that's why
in the states they
became popular,
was because they're hearing,
"Oh my God,
he just said fag
or something,"
so like that. But,
Emimem is popular here
, and most people don't even know
what he's saying.
Why is that,
do you think?

Vivian:

It sounds good to them,
maybe.

Bow:

Is that what it is?
Is it the music?
The rhythm?

Daisy:

Well, well,
I have to say that I think
there's a lot better rap
out there rhythmically than Emimen,
I think it's pretty straight forward.
His rap,
it's not exactly technical
or complex.
But I have to say that
he is popular so he's obviously been
marketed in this country,
and it's come to this country.
And,
when you have,
what do they have to compare to
, Korean rap?
you know,
it's gotta be better
than that sorry to say.

Vivian:

If you wanna scrutinize it
that precisely in detail,
hey, it's all PR,
and marketing, ok?
That's the reason
why he's up there.
(Daisy: They've got money, probably)
There's lots of other rappers
who sit there and talk about dope
and killing their Mamas
and Papas...

Daisy:

You look at what's that
band out now,
that is,
all the controversy is around.
Is it DJ. Doc?
They've got,
their cd is all about
police brutality
and their down on the police
and everything.

Vivian:

They're saying.

Daisy:

That was popular twenty years ago
in the States,
and Western countries,
and that's now coming in now.
Perhaps that's a reflection of
the movement of this culture,
that they are becoming
more open-minded
and they're going through
what we,
probably,
went through twenty years ago.

Bow:

Or just a different thing,
like I heard in Japan,
a lot of popular music is about MSG.
They don't want
monosodium glutamate
in their food,
so that's kind of a big issue.

Vivian:

More they could still borrowing
from another culture,
and not coming up
with their own lyrics,
or ideas?

Daisy:

Well,
I think it's probably,
more along the line that
this culture is now,
actually,
their experience
and an element
of freedom of speech.
And I think that they are,
it's,
it must be exciting to them,
all of sudden
these kids,
even if they are not
great musicians,
they have an opportunity to say.
"I think this sucks that
police are this way,
and I think this is terrible.
And that,
that's a gmat,
thing to happen I think.
Because they have definitely
been oppressed
for a long time
by their own people,
not by other people,
but by their own government.

Vivian:

But it's still being censored,
I mean,
the Korean government still
censors a lot of music and
(Daisy: Sure)
I mean,
even,
like you said,
DJ Doc,
or is it Mr. Seo Tae.
li, you know,
a lot of their lyrics,
even whole songs
are completely censored,
because there're foul language
or the material...

Daisy:

Right,
they might have like beeps
and things
in there
but it's still better than
twenty years ago.
I know one Korean artist
who brought his album out,
and there was no profanity in it
whatsoever.
And it was just because his lyrics were about,
I guess,
socialist ideas,
and humanity
(Bow: Who was that?)
Bob Dylan like type lyrics.
And his album was on sale
for one hour
before the government confiscated every copy of it
and wouldn't let it be sold in the county.
And I think we've come a long way
in twenty years,
and this is a good thing.
And if culture and... I
think that's what creates Art,
is if people have this ability
to express themselves.

Luke:

But the danger in that,
is what,
sort of what starts happening,
you see it a lot in the Western cultures,
where they have
marketing down to such an Art...
is that controversy sells.
And people would say
anything just to
become famous,
just to make money.
So it's not about people's better interests
and it's not about
what you really feel anymore,
what, what really,
what you're trying to
reflect out of society.
It's just like being such a...
so out there,
and so weird
and trying shock so many people,
that they talk about you
and they hate you,
so a large part of Emimen's appeal was,
you know
(Daisy: People hate you),
people hated him
and some people really liked him.

Vivian:

That's the reason
why we gave him his fame.

Luke:

Sure,
Yeah
, And the more controversial stuff
and Madonna made
a whole career out of it,
like she's offended everybody
all the way through,
but always just like a little bit, like...

Vivian:

Too cool to
really, really hate for real.

Luke:

She never went too far out there,
but, I mean,
that's, that's the thing.


sunyuting1 2008-06-07 08:56
分拆语音

4. 第2册1. Art and Culture B2的43分45秒到57分13秒结束语音对应的文本



Vivian:

And that's the reason
why governments restrict Art,
including music
and TV and what
not so much,
is because they're afraid,
you know,
take eastern cultures,
for example,
in comparison with
Western cultures.
They're afraid that
their society is going to
change too much,
you know,
similarly too,
Western cultures.
And then there's gonna be violence
in schools
and then there's,
it's gonna be disrupting their homes
and the nice culture t
hat they have.

Daisy:

I don't know,
you know,
you look at like
some of the animated books
and cartoons
in Japan.
I think they're way more offensive,
than some of the rap that
comes out of the United States.
But I think that at this age,
don't every single one of us think
that we can look at
some type of Art
or music
or entertainer
and say,
ok, this is the real deal, or
this is crap,
this is,
you know,
this is just somebody
go in it for the shock value.
I think if you're
at this age you have the ability
to do that,
(Vivian: Sure)
the danger,
of course,
and I think what
govern-ments are
trying to protect is children.
But,
I think that should be,
you know,
the parents' responsibility,
and not the government's responsibility.

Vivian:

Well,
that was my whole point, too.
Government restrict,
in that
for the sake of children
and teens
and what's...

Luke:

But that's
where the families have to
be more responsible.
It is true that
celebrities really are the role models
for kids these days,
that wasn't the case in the past.
And celebrity itself was never like
a great thing,
I mean now,
you know,
someone's really beautiful,
and they're on a catalog
or something supermodels,
I like,
they may not
have anything interesting to say
but people
want to hear
what they have to say.
It's kinda bizarre,
you know.

Vivian:

It was kinda like
the Wheel of Fortune Vanna White deal,
you know,
she was on there
for like ten years, and
everyone's like
"hot babe,
hot babe",
they used to bet on
what color dress she'd wear,
every day of the week.
(Daisy: Really?)
Yeah.
But then,
all of a sudden one day,
what was it,
the early nineties?
All of a sudden they said
"We wanna hear Vanna talk"
and so she started to say
"Hi",
and then
the next line
after a couple of months was
"Hi everyone"
and then now
she actually has
two lines
to say on each show.

Luke:

And it used to be like,
it used to be like,
the thinkers,
the writers,
and politicians,
philosophers that
would sort of form
public opinion,
who would be the people
who sort of defined
what a culture
was about
and now,
it says a lot.
In that the media,
and the stars of the media are
the ones sort of,
are considered to be the artists
and visionaries
and the ones that
kids wanna emulate,
wanna be like,
and there the ones
who have such sway.

Vivian:

But
I agree they have a lot of
force
but I still agree
parents all the way
control everything.
If they uh,
got a real good grip on their children
from an early start,
if all the parents did,
you know,
the masses all together,
you know,
got together and
said,
"Hey, we're really watching our kids,
we're giving them
good foundations
and morals and..."

Bow:

You have to be
told not to fully trust the media.

Daisy:

Well,
Bow,
you know
I know you
have a child,
and I was wondering how do,
how do you feel about,
like probably,
pornographic comic books
or that type of influence
with your child?

Bow:

I personally like them,
I wouldn't like,
I wouldn't like her
to see them
that early on,
but the thing that's
kind of interesting
is like,
the fact that they say
it takes a village to raise a child.
It's true,
because,
if you think about like,
for example,
these days
children in the world,
in most developed countries,
they play video games,
that's a fun thing for them.
But in Japan,
the more popular games
are very, very violent.
But, the real violence takes
place in American schools,
who aren't allow to
play those games,
you know.
So, why is it?
Is it because they see TV,
because they're oppressed,
why doesn't
that much violence happen
in Japan?

Daisy:

Maybe we don't
know about,
well, they don't have guns,
right?

Bow:

Is that why?
Is it because
of guns?
You think that
there wouldn't be
as much violence
in America without the guns
? I mean,
yeah.

Daisy:

I think that,
well,
people wouldn't die as often,
I guess.

Vivian:

But isn't,
it always the fact with
the things you don't know
, the inhibitions
that you have,
anyway,
anything that you want to,
it's not open for you, to,
like if your parents say,
"Don't touch?
you wanna touch.

Daisy:

Uh. Interesting point.
Then
could Art
be defined
as an expression of
something that has been suppressed.
Perhaps
that the,
the sexual comic books
and that type of behavior
in Japan, that,
is so common,
is sexual,
because of sexual
repression in their culture?

Vivian:

Maybe.

Luke:

Yeah,
it's a probably
pretty hard one to
sift through,
well,
I mean.

Bow:

It depends on the content, too.
I mean if you think about
like,
in America they say,
you know,
"Don't look
at Playboys
when you're young.",
or something,
but yeah,
we want to,
cause we,
we like naked chicks,
you know.
But it's not like
bondage
or tying up woman
or repressing them
or anything,
it's just like...

Vivian:

Like what?
A woman
with big boobs?

Bow:

Yeah,
exactly.

Luke:

What's the difference between
pornography
and erotica,
though.
They say that
pornography is
racy and offensive
and very base in crass.

Daisy:

It degrades women.

Luke:

But erotica is artistic.
(Bow: Who are they?)
People,
in general,
they define,
you know pornography is
pornography and
erotica is erotica,
and erotica has this higher standing.
And it
(Daisy: Artistic.)
has more of
an artistic element to it.

Daisy:

Well,
I don't know,
but you know,
exactly,
what you
just said that Brandon there,
I think like that,
goes back to the point I made before that,
(Bow: I'm Bow)
you know,
America...
Exactly,
what you just said that,
Bow,
it goes back to the point I was talking about before,
that in America,
you know,
women,
you were saying that,
it just seems natural looking at woman with big boobs,
but maybe that's because American
society is not
sexually repressed.

Bow:

I think that,
they think that
pornography is when
women are being
debased in film or
(Daisy: Yeah,
like putting dog collars on them),
exactly,
when they're making woman to look bad,
whereas erotica is more
a mutual consensual thing
between men and woman.

Daisy:

Yeah,
I think that's acceptable
pornography
or erotica,
if you like,
as long as both parties are
involved in some
mutually acceptable act.
That's okay.

Luke
: What about
the Robert Mapplethorpe?
Pornography or Art?
Robert Napplethorpe was
a homosexual photographer
who took pictures of black men's penises
but he also took pictures of flowers.
And he had an exhibition,
in Boston,
of the black men's penises
and there was protests that
"This is the pornography".

Vivian:

O.K.
Then he was just a queer
with like two personalities,
ok?
How about this?
In a newspaper like
six months ago,
it was the Herald
or something like that,
there was a picture
in the culture/Art section,
it was about
some movie set
where they had like
five hundred nude people lying
in the streets.
Well,
I was,
I just happen to be
reading the opposite page
when my friend's daughter
comes running up and
my friend
and I were reading this one article on the opposite side,
but she comes and says
"There,
you know,
there's butt-naked people
all over the picture
on the newspaper"
I mean,
and then
my friend was very,
you know,
kind of revolted,
and she was like
"How could they put like,
you know,
bare naked people
on the newspaper".

Daisy:

Well, there's bare naked people
when having sex,
I don't think that there is anything wrong
with the nude body.
If, if your, if your,
I think saying to a child,
because that person is naked,
it's a bad thing.
Probably,
it's gonna give the kid
problems later in life.

Luke:

What about why
is alright to show
a person naked if they've been killed
or beaten
and dragged through the streets of some city?

Bow:

Or why is it ok?

Luke:

To celebrate it.

Bow:

Yes, on National Geographic
where you can see
African woman's breast.
Why is that different?

Vivian:

Yeah,
why is that considered Art.

Daisy:

As long as,
if nudity is
represented as something
that's debased
like a woman
with a dog collar being whipped
with a cat of nine tails.
Then of course,
there's something wrong with that
. But the human body in itself,
if it's naked and there's a picture of it
being naked.
I don't see that there's anything offensive
about that,
if there's something offensive
about that then there's something wrong
with my naked body.

Luke:

What if it's a man with..,
being whipped
by a cat's nine tails?

Bow:

Exactly,
Robert Mapplethorpe,
same thing,
same guy.
That's what he had.
He had homosexuals,
in weird positions,
one guy was pissing
in another guy's mouth,
but then again he was
a great photographer.
He did,
he made great black
and white pictures.

Daisy:

Fair enough,
but both of those guys were kind of into it.
I think the point that
I'm getting is
that a lot of pornography
, if they have a woman
in a dog color,
with the cat of nine tails.
It's suggesting something
about a women's
subservience,
and submissiveness
to a male.
And that's wrong.
If you are perpetuating
that ideal of a woman,
then to women,
in general,
that is degrading.
But,
you know,
if, if, that was
from a homosexual prospective
acceptable,
who
am I to say,
I'm nora male
homosexual,
so I don't know
what is acceptable or not.
But I am a woman,
so I can,
I can offer my opinion
from that point of view.

Bow:

What about
lesbians?

Daisy:

Lesbians?
Well, they can do
whatever they want to.
I'm not a lesbian.

Bow:

What do you think about them?

Daisy:

What do I think of them?

Bow:

Yeah.

Daisy:

I think
that's fine.

Bow:

Really?

Vivian:

She thinks it's great.
But what if I was talking from
a very conservative mother's view point,
you know,
there's lots of mothers
who are against, f
or example,
prayer in schools or,
you know,
certain,
when you go to Art class,
you see these pictures
and paintings of nudes
and whatever.
I mean,
they're totally against it.
I mean.
(Daisy:
But those pictures aren't...)
They're saying
how can you argue that this is Art?
I don't want my children exposed
to this sort of thing at this early age or...

Daisy:

But I don't think their children
would be exposed
to homosexual pictures.
They might be
exposed to,
what about David?
I mean,
look at David
that's a sculpture from
hundreds
and hundreds
of years ago
and that,
you know,
that..,
he's nude,
his genitals are showing.
You can't censor that,
you can't censo
r the entire Renaissance period.

Luke:

That,
that sculpture always
made me feel
really good. Actually.

Vivian:

Did you guys ever,
what is that,
I don't know what it is called,
but there is this hall
where they've made like
Ten Davids
all around this hall
and they've chopped off his...
(Daisy: His penis?)
Yeah.

Bow:

The hall of Justice?

Vivian,

Daisy:

Ha Ha...

Bow:

How about the difference between the,
sculpture say like
, David,
where that,
was accepted at that time
and now it's pornography.
But, I think,
in his exhibition,
people chose and pay money to go inside,
if you if you believe that is pornography,
and it's offensive
, don't go in, don't pay.

Daisy:

Exactly.

Vivian:

Right.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian:

But then what about
when the artist publicized,
it's not something that you
choose or do not
choose to go in and see,
but
(Daisy:
But I think,
it'll be pretty different...)
you are forced to almost absorb it.
You're forced to
look at it in the middle of City Hall?

Luke:

You have,
just as other artists have the right to
display their stuff
and advertise it and try to give make them,
a living for themselves.
People have the right to
say to disagree with
it and I think that's the thing,
that's the thing too,
about art.
Sometimes it'll shock
and sometimes it'll annoy,
sometimes it'll inspire,
sometimes it'll offend.
And that's the thing,
that's its purpose,
that's what it is supposed to do.
And people can't,
it can't be stifled to suppressed,
it just has to make people like,
take an active part,
and it's great if it has that effect on people.
Because
a lot of things
are really just watered down
these days.
And Art is one of these pure,
like these good things.
If it is done properly
and it serves the purpose
it's supposed to serve.
It will get people riled up about
something.
That's important.

Daisy:

And you know,
even the way that
women have been
perceived through Art,
you know,
like the Botticelli Beauties,
I mean,
they were quite curvy,
if you know what I mean,
they were big women.

Bow:

Voluptuous.

Daisy:

And even in some of the paintings,
their breasts were deformed
(Vivian: Sure)
deformed
and that was like,
their breasts had big lumps in them
and knowing
what we know
today,
and we look back at that,
those women were in like
developed stages of breast cancer.

Bow:

Salvador Dali
had like ants and things
on women's genitals
you know,
just like...

Daisy:

Right, right,
but, he was,
he was definitely disturbed,
yeah,
I love his Art
but there was
still definitely something,
he, actually Salvador Dali.
He had several paintings
where women wear severed
like their parts of their body were in different
, in different areas
. And there's actually,
a killer on the loose in Europe
that's doing
the exact things out of
Salvador Dali's paintings
at the moment.
So
has that inspired him?
I guess
the guy was just crazy anyway
and a fan of Salvador Dali's.
But
still it was interesting.

Vivian:

Well
you know,
I thought it kind of
ironical,
how everything
comes back to,
well
it can't be resolved anyway.
Why,
because
people have opinions
Art and culture.
This is everyone expressing themselves.
So it can never really be resolved.
Is it wrong,
is it right,
is it beautiful
, is it not.
Like,
Luke was making that point
earlier.
So
it's kind of like a matter
of freedom of speech,
and that can't be resolved.

Bow:

Beauty is in the eye
of the beholder.

Daisy:
Yes, I was just about to
say the same thing.
And I think that you're right,
it can't be resolved,
but I think that's the purpose of Art,
to,
you know,
inspire debate,
to inspire thought,
to inspire.

Vivian: And there's always going to be critics who don't agree.