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3. 第3册2.Euthanasia B2的29分15秒到44分14.3秒的语音文本
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Cathy:
What about ,,,the aspect of love, ...though?
... If you love somebody, ...would you... want.them
... to... kill themselves... ....before let's say,
...they would naturally die, ...or would you want,
....because you love them,... you don't... want to see them ...go through pain?
Deb:
Ok.
Cathy:
Like,... do you have?
Deb:
.No, I was just gonna say... like no, ok, ....
....like for our own ...family members,.... whatever. Urn,
.... I have a grandfather ...that's... got Alzheimer's ...really badly,
....he is not... so bad now, ...but.... we all sort of know ....that it's going to get ...pretty bad.
....(Cathy: Right) ....I'm ...(I'm) kind of all ...for it, ....if it gets to a point.
...Can we ....use euthanize him..... because he's ...out of his head? (ah)(mm)
....He is in pain. ....He doesn't understand... anything. (uh-uh)
...(Cathy: Uh-uh)...(uh). Once he gets to ....a point where it's really like ....that ...traumatic ...for the family,
..... like emotionally traumatizing..(yeah).. for the family or whatever. ....Let the poor guy go.(uhah)
Bow:
Is he in pain, ...though?.
.. I mean,... it's.., (he well)
....it's in the mind. ...
....I mean, ....what is he actually feeling,
...I don't know,... if you can...
Deb:
But ..when it gets to ...a point where,..(mm)
.. like he doesn't get,
...I mean, ....he hasn't had a shower
...in a month apparently.
...You know what I mean?(mm)
Bow:
Is it bothering him?..
.. Or it that bothering other people?(haha).
.. But he doesn't care.
Deb:
No, but,... but I think that
...it does get to ...a point where they,
.... they maybe can ...sort of like ...lose all functions,
....lose all bodily(haha) functions,
...they don't even get up.. any more,
.... they just don't.
...Maybe they start to lose
...more like it ...spreads out ...beyond,
... Alzheimer's whatever, ...I don't know.
Luke:
It's just like a really slow, ...slow death then,
... (Deb: Yeah, it's) ...an excruciatingly ...slow death. (mm)
...And I think ...it's that's,
... uh, it's not really ...love any more.
... If it's love, ....it's more selfish love
... at that point, (yeah)
...because ...you want,.... you want..
.. grandpa around you.
... (Deb: Sure you do.) .
...You want these people... around you,
... of course you do..
... And I don't think there's ...any guilt in,
... in sort of saying... like,.
... let's let him go,..(mm).. let's let him.
.. have a nice,...(mm). a nice... exit sort of thing.
Deb:
Ya, ya, ya.
Bow:
You're into that,.(that's).. nice poetic.
Luke:
That nice poetic exit,... yeah. ...No, you don't
....want to go out ....with a lump...(haha)
.... in your pants and ...some nurse is.
Deb:
(well) Absolutely... you know,
...you know,....
... that's, ...that's just the way.(no).. that I see it.
... I think that ...if it came to that,
.... I think I'd rather... see him go
....than hang on to him,
... just and ...have all the family... just
... (Cathy: That's a very...)
....just, .(mm)...I mean.(it's).
.. it's out of love.... that we'd let him go ...not out of you know.
Bow:
Yeah, ..(you know).speaking of the love.... and speaking of urn,
... Steven King ..
...who we we're just talking about... earlier,
...the movie, uhm,... Dolores.. Claiborne?
.. (Cathy: Alright.) ..(Deb: Oh, Yes)
...What's about ...that?.
.... About this woman ...who was a real ...bitch
(Deb: That's a great movie)
...(and) ..and she,... um, ...she ...wanted to ..die,
... but.... the love that ....she had for.
.. Dolores... her made,
.... she treated her... like a shit(ah)
...for her whole life, (ah)
...(yeah) and she asked.... Dolores,
...you know ...will you ...kill me,... and she,
....what she throws her ....down the stairs ..or something,
...(Deb: I can't remember the end,.(yeah)... but it's an.. awesome movie, ....I remember I really like it.)
...and she, uh, ....she left her her money, ..I think.
...(Deb: ...Yeah, actually,... she did leave her money,)
...and then, ....it turns out
.. in the end that she really ....did love her.
.... It was just her way ...of showing it,(yeah)
.(and)..and Dolores... ended up.., uh, killing her.
Luke:
Right (haha)... out of love, ..out of love.(out of love)
Deb:
(and)...Yeah, ...because ...probably,.
.. but also probably
....because that was a sort of relationship(right)
.... where you do ..what I say.(right)
Bow:
Right, ...You must kill me.(haha...)
Deb:
No, ...but out of respect, ...she did. (m) (ah)...You know, ...
..and 'cause ....also she had the upper... hand at that point,
...she could've ...totally turned the tables,(ah)
.... and made... her life... a living hell.(yeah)(ah)
Cathy:
Let's say,..... for example,
...you have a love ....like your husband ..or your wife,
.... and they're terminally.... ill and they say,
.... listen I'm in (I mean)...so much pain,
....I don't ...wanna live anymore,
... would you ...please kill me? (ah)
...Because I, ....for some reason ...this person.... can't do it themselves.(ah)
.. Would you ...be able to do something ...like that?
... Would you... be able to euthanize .(I...)..somebody that you love?
...(Bow: I wouldn't ...be able to.)
Deb:
Well, ...I don't think ...I could.
(Bow: I couldn't.).(but)..
I don't know.... it'd be really hard.
.... Because, ..again,.... like you would be in
....that every special case,
....where I'd have to sort of be..
.. in the situation looking ...at it going,
....well yeah, ...you're really sick,
...I know ....you're not gonna get better ....
.....it's the hardest decision... to make,(ah)
.... and so maybe.... I would be the person.
... that would be like I'll see ...what I can do,
... I'll try, you know,... talk to a doctor
....who can get some pills..,.(yeah). or something to.(well)
Bow:
It depends of the method of death. .
...(Daisy: Right) (yeah) (well yeah)
...Shooting them or putting, ...you know...
Cathy:
I have trouble killing a cockroach.(mm)
Deb:
You know,... not me.
Cathy:
No?(haha...)
Luke:
If it was more like.... a sledge hammer ..or something...
...I wouldn't wanna do it.
....(um)There are, ...there are,
...There are very peaceful ways (what..)...to kill the person.
Cathy:
That would be a very ...difficult thing... to have to do. (Luke: Sure)
Bow:
What do you... think about, ..ok,
...this is like ...not people but, ...back to animals again
...(Deb: OK)... like uhm,... the Chinese... recently, ....
....uh,... the people..(who). it was in Hongkong,
....all these chickens had ...diseases,
... (Deb: Oh, the flu!)
...The flu!.(oh ,the make)
... So they killed... like uh,.. a million
...five hundred thousand... chickens
.....by putting them
.... in barrels and... gassing them.(yeah)
... That's carbon... dioxide. (mm)
.....(know)...That's a form (ha)...of euthanasia,
....I guess. (mm)(yeah)
....Genocide chicken genocide?(ha...)
Luke:
Um, ...but people .(but)...kill poultry everyday.. anyway.
... Poultry is going down ....and they're raising poultry,
...to kill poultry ..
..(Bow: ...To eat, though) ...to eat!
....but just (yeah)....to kill them to
... knock out a disease.
...(Cathy: Like Mad Cow disease as well.)
..(but...). Yeah,... it just...(just like...)
Deb:
But is it a threat.... to like humans, ..right? ...Like I mean,
...(Bow:... But I think ...they.. don't know.)
.... because ....if they are just.... looking at.
.. the natural order, ..of course, ...the chickens gotta go.(yeah ,ah)
Bow:
How about like, uh,
....a lot of cats.... every year and
...dogs in America...(uh...dispinted)
.... are euthanized just ...because ...of population.
... Is that, ....do you believe in that,
...do you think ....that they should be doing that.
...Is there other ways to.. solve the problem?
...Cathy:
Yes, the humane society has a rule ....if the animal is
....after three months in the place,
...they have the right to kill it,(ah).
...(to likk)... to kill it afterward so...(ah)
Bow:
But do you ...think that's right?
...or do you think... that there
...would be ..other ways (ah)
...of controlling that?
Cathy:
I think... it's pretty bad ..actually. ..(Bow: Uh-uh)
Luke:
It's unfortunate... I think,
...but I mean ...it's, ....it's
... I think ...a necessary evil,
....I mean if people don't.
... fix their ...animals,... they
...(Deb: Right, right)
...will. ..That's their nature.
Bow:
...OK, ...what about China .(oh ,china ah..)
...who's got almost a billion (people)... people.
....Are they gonna ...start doing it.
.. just because ...they didn't neuter ...each other.
Luke:
Well, ....they are trying to do,... uh, ...like
...zero-growth population.
Deb:
They are trying to ...implement that.
Bow:
But it's not gonna work,.... you are going ...against ...procreation?
Cathy:
But ...yeah... you are thinking about
....that ...like there are.
... so many people in the world, (uh)
....and there's only... a certain number ...of resources.
...(Bow: ...Yeah, ...what happens
....when there's not ...enough food?) (mm)
...Elderly people... are taking ...a lot of money
...and stuff like this, ...so if you wanna...
Luke:
.... Yeah, ...aging populations,
.... this probably gonna be.
.. a really big issue... in about
...twenty years (yeah)
...when baby boomers... all start hitting.. that age
...(Cathy: Oh, yeah)
...like our parents' (yeah)..
..age kind of thing,
...when they start ...getting up to.. that age,
....and they're gonna, ..want rights.(I not...)
...It's just gonna be a really ....important.. weird thing,
... (Cathy: It is.) ...Because..
.. they are used to being ...people
...who always ..made all the rules.
...(Deb: Made the decisions)
...When, ...when ...everything was starting
... to really get going this century.
...And... I think you're gonna probably,.
(you're)... you'll... see more
...where they're... coming from and things.
Luke:
I think that that's .
..the just the way,
.(and...)..they'll want to do it.
Deb:
.... And they could again.
.. be the decision makers ...for that,(yeah)
.... because there are... so many of them,
... and probably ...a lot of them ..will be like,
...you know what?.
... I don't... want.. to die.
.. in ..this way...,
I want to go... this way.(yeah,not?)
Cathy:
That could be ...a turning point.
Deb:
Because there's gonna be.
.. like a loud voice at,.... at some point.
...There probably.... will be a loud voice.(ah ,yeah )
... of baby boomer's... wanting it that way.
Bow:
It's very interesting..
. because it's like,... uhm, ...
...with the idea.... of passing.
.. new legislation
...(uh)...on allowing people.
.. to euthanize.. family members
.... or people ...that wanna die
....allowing them.. to die,
.... there's also.... new technology
....coming out...
,... that is... helping them
...to live longer ( or )(right)
... or cryogenics that,(said)
.... you know, ...might work.(mm)
.....So... it's like ....a battle ...against ...the two things, ...like uh,
....which one... is gonna win?... Is it gonna be,
....like we are ....gonna sustain
... life.. longer.. or, ..
.....or they're just gonna ...just kill people
...at the drop of a dime ?
Deb:
I'd like to see them...,
... well ....I mean... who wouldn't,
.... but like obviously like,
.... find.... cures... for diseases.
Luke:
Yeah,(oh yeah)..(think). I think,.
.. I think the trend ...is gonna be .(and ...)..try to extend life.
Deb:
Well, ya, ....I know that's ....what you're saying too,
....but also like,.(oh , as ya)
.. as ...ya,... well ya,.... I'd like to see
... life be able to go on.(but) . in a,... in a...
Luke:
Educated way,.. I mean.
Deb:
Yea, ...like in a way... that
...they're... contributing ..whatever,
..in a way ...that ..they're
... there like, ..coherently there.(mm)
Cathy:
That's an interesting.... point like to find cures,.
.. say for example,
...you have AIDS,
..you have cancer,
....those are pretty.... you know,
....terrible ways.. to die,
... and you are ....at the point like, ...
....ok, ...I don't wanna live any more, ...this really sucks,
... you kill yourself,... and... a month later ....they come up with ..a cure, (mm) (yeah)
....hypothetically ..that could happen... (Luke: Sure, yeah)(mm yeah yeah)
Daisy:
It totally could,.. but...
Bow:
Well, I mean ...it has happened,
... it has happened... with like polio
...and stuff before they(yeah)
...came up with ...a vaccine... people die.
... from it or ....tuberculosis things.. like that.
Deb:
And there is no point ....in dwelling on it ..I don't (ah) think,
....because this is the decision... you made... and if you chose
...to be euthanized and .
...like two days ..later,... they discovered ..the cure
..for.. your disease,
...you know,... you made that ...decision, ...
....and there.. is nothing .(yah)...anybody ...can do to change it, (yeah )(yeah)
...you know, ...maybe your family ...is gonna feel a little bit badly,
....but they let ...you go through that.... But,
... you know what, ...they are gonna.. have to get over it.... it's a sort of (my) why.. dwell on it, (ah)
....you know. (yeah)....And you could spend way... too much time to.(ah)..
Luke:
And you can always ...explore your options.
... I mean... if you're like,... I'm thinking about ...maybe killing myself, (haha)
...but if you look into it, ...you know, ...you can say
... (Deb: ...And you see ...that it's close.)
.... yeah there is there something... on the horizon
...(Deb: (we're)We're going to know.(yeah))
...(yeah). or thousands of miles away.... Basically, ....we have no idea... what you have. (ah)
....It's gonna get worse ..and worse,.... like exponentially ..by the day.(mm)(yeah) (yeah)
Cathy:
Have you ever seen... that movie ...Lorenzo's oil?
...(Bow: Yeah)
...Something like... this is good?(yeah)
Bow:
There's also ...a movie uh, ....the Michael Landon Story?....(ah)
.... Where uh, ....he had cancer.... and the son
.... was trying to ....get these medicines.. from,
.... from Mexico ...that.. would cure.. his uh,
....prostate cancer ..or something. (ah)
....Michael Landon ..was just like,
....no son ...this is just my uh...
....(Luke: Oh, ...really?) (yeah)
..You will, ...you will suffer, .(yeah)...
....he was just like.... this is.
.... what happened ....to me,
...this is.. my destiny,
... leave me ...alone.
Luke:
Yeah, ...I ...suppose there's,
..there's...(there's ,there's)
... (Deb: There're something there.)
...cause he lived... a full life.. or something.
Bow:
Yeah... he had all... the fame and..
... fortune, and ...bunch of kids,.
.. and a bunch of wives,... and.. jewels.(ah)
Luke:
Ok,... I really think, ...Yeah,
...I mean, ....some people ...would feel like
....they maybe ...they really would wanna die.
...I mean, ...maybe they're ...sick and ..they're...
Deb:
And that's why ...it's your choice.
Luke:
It's the choice,... it's not ...like (mm)
..you have to die ..and stuff.(yeah)
... But I don't think people ..should be.
... so freaked out ..by the idea.
Deb:
They should be .
...allowed to have.. the choice.
(Luke: Right, ..right)
Cathy:
But... (but) what you were saying
.... before about... the power ..of the mind.
...I think ...that's something ..you know like.
... I've seen.. many movies,(ah) (mm)
... and ...you know ...the last scene
...is like.... I'm dying now.
....But how do you know that?.(ah).
.. You have made that ...decision.. to die... at that point.(ah)
... And you have come to terms
...with everything ..in your life
... even like ...the unconscious things
... you don't ...even think.. exist. (ah ah...)
...So, ...if you really ...wanted to die,
... maybe ...you could just die
...through your mind's.. power.(ah)
Deb:
My mom says... that... happens a lot
... like... at the ...hospice and ..stuff like that.(ah)
Luke:
They decide ..one night,..
. I think... I'm not gonna do it anymore.
Deb:
(well).. Oh, No.(but like ,like) (um)... One story
....that she told me ....was a man
... that had AIDS... or whatever,
....and his boyfriend ...was there and
... he would stay and... stay and ..stay.
....He wanted to be there
...for his last moment.(ah)
... And ...he finally said,... the sick ...guy...
... said,.. you know,.
.. why don't you.. go get a cup of coffee
.... and ...so he left ..and then.. he went. (ah) (yeah)
.....And then ...he came... back and... he was gone.
.... And my mom.. had to explain,... you know.....
....(like) It's amazing.... people will choose
...their time to go..(yeah yeah). (Luke, Cathy: Yes)
Cathy:
(if I think I get an conama) (I think) ...( yeah)( hahaha...)
,...(no) (but)...I think, ...I think,... that's true, ....so like.... maybe somebody... that
...thinks... that they .wanna die,
.... they wanna have euthanasia,
....maybe they don't... really ...want to
...there's some ..part of them,(ah)
.... that is still ..hanging on ..to life.(ah mm)
... ( I maybe) Or maybe ...see people
... that just hang on,... hang on,.(uhha).. why is that?(yeah)
Bow:
(there, there ,I think to make) Maybe (no)
...they think they ...can make it, ...make it through.
Deb:
Well, ....also even... when... people are told that
....they have terminal illness
....., you have six months ...to live,
....lots of people ..will die.
....(uh) That's a.... powerful
....statement..
...to say (no no).you've got.. (mm).
six months to live... Lots,
.... lots of people live, (he was all live)..
....people will die (yeah).
..within that... six months,
.... because ...they suddenly give up,(ah)
...but ...maybe ..had they
...not heard.. those words. (mm)
...They'd... just think well,(mm)
...they'll just continue, ...and continue, ..and continue. ...They can't.
Cathy:
Yeah,... I've heard of that,
...I've heard of that before, ...after,
.... right after... your doctor says... you're gonna die,
...you die.. shortly after.
Bow:
Yeah,.(yeah)... I (totall)
... (I )totally believe in
... the power ..of ...the mind.....
.... (Deb: Suggestion... almost)..
...(yeah ...yeah).. I think there's a lot ...more
...to our minds than..(the no).
... we know,... than we are more.. capable of using.
Deb:
And so then, ...if you did open
....up the avenue... of euthanasia,
.... then... suddenly... that avenue
....gets a little bit ..(yeah)..
.....becomes... more of a dead end..
... Because ..suddenly, ....it's like well,
...I'm allowed ..to go,
...so ..I'm... gonna go.
.... Less ...people... will maybe .
....choose.... to try and...
... fight it out ..or (ah).
...use their (their) ...own power,
... their own ....mind.(ah) (ah).
.... to come. through it.
Cathy:
Right. ...Maybe.
... if euthanasia.... was allowed ....
....and ..you felt like... this burden..
. like your family ....is going through
... this ...huge... financial... burden,
...maybe then.. you say,.. ok,... kill me.(ah)
... But maybe ....really ...you're not
...completely.. ready to die,
...because.. if you were, ..your mind.
.. would shut up ...and ...accept that,
... and you ..would die.(mm)
.... Or maybe... we haven't ...really (haha..)
...learned... to use our ...minds ..completely,
...(Bow: I think so.)
...and so.. we can
...(yeah ,so you can't)
... expect that ...everybody ...that wants ..to die,
....could do it (right)...themselves.. that way.
Deb:
It's wow.
Luke:
But ..I mean ...a lot of.. these decisions.
Daisy:
It's so... much to think about it.(haha....)
Luke:
A lot of the situations... though,.
. it's often uh,... a case of like,
... not ...actually being... um, ...given anything,
....you're not actually being
....killed per se.
... but ....often just left,... just left alone. (mm)
...I mean just like..(mm).
... stop the machines....,
.... stop all the gadgets and stuff,...(right, right)
... (Deb, Cathy: Right)..
. because.. maybe ...you are being
...forced to ..stay alive.
.... Even though you are well passed,.
.. just like..., just let me go, ...
....or just take me away. (ah)(I was it ...rialy)
....But ...because you... got this state.
... of the art... equipment ..hook,
....hooked up to you ...and stuff ...that's like
... literally keeping your ...heart pumping ..and stuff.
Cathy:
Manually ...keeping you alive (ah yeah).
...that supposedly.
Luke:
Then... you could ...conceivably
...and theoretically live
...forever, ...why not,... you know.
Bow:
But.... I think... that idea ..of being
...hooked up,
...and having ..that ..technology... is because ...
....there is hope ....that they will.
... maybe.... miraculously,
... oh,... we just found this... medicine in.
.. Uganda,.. and... the whatever,
...and uh, ....here take it now,.. you're better.(yeah)
... That's the ...whole idea..of that.
Luke:
It's a race... against... time or.. something.
Bow:
Exactly, ...and ...so.. it's like
...we gotta try.. everything
...that's ...humanly.. impossible ..(Deb: Right)
...to.... keep this person ....alive.
.. as much as ..we can.. And.
.. if we can find it.(well)
Cathy:
...Maybe... we shouldn't ....think of life
...and death ...as two... completely
....separate things.
...Right, ...you're.. living in life, ...
...and you're... dying.
.... Every day (right).
...every minute, ....we are all ..dying,
....we all ..accept.. that fact. ...
...(Deb: One closer .(ah)..step to death.) (ah)
...Right?..(ah) And so,... that the death.
.. is just a.(uh). course.. of living.
Bow:
Well, ...that's yeah, ...I guess in
...a certain ...religion, ( ah).
....that's the idea,... but I mean, ..
....Buddhism... is not like.. that.(ah)... It's like ..a cycle,
..so you're..(you're).(you're) living,.
... you're dying,.. you're living, ..you're dying.
.... Maybe they might.. think... another way. (ah)
...That’s not, ...we're not ...getting closer ..to death,
....but we are getting closer.. to uh,
.... (Deb: A new life).. an anniversary.
...(Luke: ..And the government...)
Cathy:
But getting close to, ...I think,(ah)
..to that point, ..right?
...Whether it's a death ..or
...it's the start.. of a new life,
....we are always
...getting closer to.(ah)(ah).. that point.
....And so do you wanna rush..(yeah)
... the process, ...or do you wanna... just let it go.
Luke:
....The thing is the people.
.. that make the rules,
...like the government.
....They don't (They don't )
......see it ..in terms of,
...you know,... the Buddhist ...stance or,.. you know,
.... the continuum ...sort of.
.. from life ..into death. (mm)
...They just see it ...as tax paying ..citizen
... (Deb, Cathy:... Right.(right))
... stiff,.. you know, ...that's really,
...they're the ones ...who are making the decision(ah)
.... And... who are ....basically regulating ....for
.... the majority of the people .(they...).
....whether or not... they have control over them.
Deb:
They make decisions ..that aren't based on.
Bow:
But if they didn't regulate it,.
.. then I think it... would get out.. of hand
... (Luke: I agree) ...like we talked about earlier.
...So they ...have to ...regulate somewhat. ..(ah)
....Because... that's what... governments ...set up... for
... to regulate things... would get out of hand, (mm)
...it'd be chaos. ...(Deb: Regulations) (ah)
