Punjabi Writing in Roman Script Punjabi Writing in Roman English Script Ideas
Pra-o a-o hun asi romanized
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Hi wanna Say, " It would be better if you provide punbjabi fonts for download & then run this page using those fonts, making it easier to view, read & understand jokes.
Sat Sri Akal to everyone!
Pra-o
a-o hun asi romanized wich gallan kerye
te vekhye eda ki nateeja nikal da a
agar koi samjhe k kisi lafaz lai saee alfhabit naee use kite ge te o apni merzi de lafaz dase
astran asi romanizid punjabi noon naveen shakal de sakan ge.
rub rakha sub da
In an other site, we do it all the time. We share Punjabi poetry, tappey, dholey etc and it is fun. Let me share few lines of poetry here.
Poetry by Hazrat Sultan Bahu
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"Tasbi Phayree tay dil nai phayrya, ki leyna tasbi phar ke hoo
Illum parya tay adab na sikhya ki leyna illum nooN parh ke hoo
Chillay kattay tay kuj na khathya ki leyna chillyaaN warh ke hoo
Jaag binna dudh jamde nai Bahoo bhaaNveiN laal ho nooN kuDh kuDh ke hoo"
Sona peetal mol na hoonde, tore bhatti wich pakaiye Hoo
Toonbe tarbuz mool na hoonde, tore tor Makke lay jaaiye Hoo
Kanwan de bachche hans na hoonde, tore moti chaugh chugaiye Hoo
Kaure khoo na mithhe hoonde Bahoo, tore sau mun khand da paaiye Hoo
"Kook dilla MutaaN Rab Sunnay Cha DardmandaaN dian dhahiN hoo,
Seena Mera DardeiN Bharya undr Bharkan BhaaheiN Hoo
TaylaaN baajh Na Balun MashaalaaN DardaaN Baajh Na AaheiN Hoo
Aatish Naal Yaraana La Ke Baho Pheer Ooh saDrun Ke NaaheiN Hoo"
What you think?
Pyare Ashfaq and J Sandhu bhai
1. Mera khyaal hai ke Punjabi nu roman lippi (script) vich likhana jyada mushqil nahi par agar thode bahut 'rule' ya 'logic' de mutabiq chalna theek rahega.
2. Punjabi vich bahut saare lafaz ya shabd, Hindi, Urdu, Turki, Arabi aur faarsi jabanna de hain. Mere vichaar (khyaal) vich sannu koshish karni chahidi hai ke sab to jyada 'common' ya mashhoor lafza da istemaal ya prayog kita jaye.
Agar koi mushkil shabd ya lafz istemaal karna hai te oda matlab 'angrezi' vich nahi te punjabi vich (aasaan bhasha vich) likhna theek rahega.
3. Sab to jyada jaroori hai ke punjabi likhan vich jyada to jyada 'phonetic transcription' kita jave (yani jistra boli jaye ostra hi likhi jaye)
4. Mai apni kucch pichhle dina di kavita, nazma urdu aur punjabi vich likhiya te ona nu roman harfa vich likhya te ode jariye mera sandesha kaafi loka taq pahunchya hai.
Yani mainu translate (tajurma ya anuvaad) karan di jaroorat nahi pai.
5. JSandhu ji
"Tasbi Phayree tay dil nai phayrya, ki leyna tasbi phar ke hoo '
Phayree = kaafi confusing hai?
ph or bh vich faraq hona chahida hai.
mai ik phonetic list banan di soch raha hai.
tuade vichaar da intezaar hai
pyare dosto
hindustani vich likhi gayi laaina nu mai roman vich likhan di koshish kiti si te eh ik Pakistani discussion list vich vandi gayi te kaafi dosta ne parhya aur ona nu samajh aa gaya.
Aistra hi asi Punjabi vich vi likh sagde ha:
"
ye kaisi ghataa chhaayi hai ?
Aankhe pathrai haiN aur dil bhaari hai
awajeyN bahut haiN shoroGul bhi hawa mei
dikhta hai sab kucch aankh sei
roshni bhi bahut hai lekin phir bhi
khizayoN mei ik Khauf ki dhundh chhaayi hai
Sab kucch chalta sa hai
tez daurhte haiN pahiye
sarhak pei halchal hai, bazaar mei bahut bheerh
phir bhi sab thahra saa lagtaa hai
HALAnki rut bahaar ki aayi hai
HaiN har ik insaaN kei liye kayi darzano kaartoos
Sab ko sulaane ko, maut ka hai har saamaan maujoud
kaale saye bhi ab dushman nazar aate haiN
Deeware haiN ghani khirkiyaN bhi sab band haiN
phir bhi dare baithe haiN Ye kaisi ghataa chhaayi hai
Siskati hai vahaN eik mazboor aur gharib aurat
krahata hai zism ek dukhi nauzwaN kaa
Uthaana parhta hai iq baap ko
aulaad ka zanaaza
ye kaisi dushwaar gharhi aayi hai
Intezaam hi intezaam, haiN bahut afsar yahaN
har kadam pe baithe haiN baaboo yahaN
sarkaareN bhi bahut saari haiN
aur raajaa haiN darzano
Phir bhi rota hai gharib kyuN zulm ki duhaai hai
PK Kapila (c) Copyrights
pk@thinkers.netPyare dosto
HOW TO ADDRESS OUR FRIENDS
Mere kai dost mainu pucch de ne ke o apne doosre dost, jere doosre mazhaba vich paida hoye ne, ona nu kistra sambodhit karan ya kistra ona nu welcome karan.
Kyun ki asi 4 main dharma de log hai:
Sikh Hindu Muslim Christian
Can we device a new salutation for punjabi which is unique for everyone?
Pyare pra-o
any chup changi naee-n hondi
buzergan de kuj bol(akhan) nazer cho-n guzre san te o sochia tvanoo v sunva-n
1-Zat di kot kirli te shateera-n vich vasa
2-Na-n tu-n ayo toti (dhoti) ban k na-n me-n bethi chulla mal k
3-Chor uchaka chodhri te lundi run perdhan
4-Gal kere ji di na-n puter di na-n tee(dhi) di
5-Mangi sa-n me-n changi sa-n vya-e latha cha- buri me-n ta-n lagi je bu-a bethi a-
Ashfaq Ali
some local councils---in fact
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some local councils---in fact most local councils have punjabi classes on a saturday morning-10 till 12.
check it out and the teachers are supposed to be qualified teachers.i know some friends of mine whose children attend and those little ones have picked it up real good.
check your local education dept of the council. libraries have dual language books/alphabet for kids too.
Satinder, We also have a 3y
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Satinder,
We also have a 3yr old child and are bringing him up to be bilingual.
WHSmith, Birmingham has a great selection of good quality Punjabi/English books.
Regards.
Raaj - Vowels is one of Gurmukhi's strong points. Shahmukhi is lagging very much in this regard. No script is ever going to be perfect. Look at Roman, put and but...u does not ahve the same sound.
The issue with dots is: The principle of orthoganality. The nuqtas are a concept borrowed from Arabic. Applied incorrectly to Gurmukhi. Eg. in Arabic script: h, kh, and j are all separated by the position/absence of the dots. Whta do these sounds have in common-nothing. Same goes of ein, ghein; re,ze.
Now if you want to keep using dots then instead doing
j and z (similar sounds) use z and d, or z and r.
Or use new symbols all together.
By the way L does not need a dot or a new symbols. It needs (peir wich haha).
more later.
Okay, I undertand your concern about the representation of Persian sounds in Gurmukhi, but are there any other issues involved? Were there any other problems in the Gurmukhi alphabet that were serious enough to cause problems?
One thing that I can think of is the "addak" symbol (which doubles consonants). I often notice that this symbol is used very inconsistently. Often a certain word will be written using the addak, and then a few sentences later, the same word will appear without it... in the same paragraph! I believe this is a matter of spelling ambiguities and could probably be alleviated with standardization.
Now, about the Persian sounds. You stated that the Gurmukhi alphabet was incomplete in its current form. Do you mean that there are OTHER sounds besides the Persian sounds that are omitted from Gurmukhi? Because, as I see it, the Persian sounds are definitely included in the Gurmukhi alphabet and are not missing. The only problem is that some people would say that they are poorly represented. I, however, feel that the dotted letters are perfectly acceptable ways to represent these sounds... the only problem is that PEOPLE are not consistent.
And this is the problem we are addressing. By designing new symbols to represent these sounds, we are essentially trying to give these sounds distinct, individual appearances so that they are not confused with or substituted by other letters.
I think that the Punjabi language would definitely be written more accurately if the Persian sounds had their own letter forms. What I'm concerned about now, however, is the possiblity of successfully introducing these new letters to an alphabet which is already quite widely used and has been used for a very long time. On one hand, it might be difficult to have this change adopted by everyone. On the other hand, perhaps this is a better time than ever, with the rising levels of communications techonology, to do this.
Anyways, your opinions, reflections, concerns..
Raaj - Vowels is one of Gurmukhi's strong points. Shahmukhi is lagging very much in this regard. No script is ever going to be perfect. Look at Roman, put and but...u does not ahve the same sound.
The issue with dots is: The principle of orthoganality. The nuqtas are a concept borrowed from Arabic. Applied incorrectly to Gurmukhi. Eg. in Arabic script: h, kh, and j are all separated by the position/absence of the dots. Whta do these sounds have in common-nothing. Same goes of ein, ghein; re,ze.
Now if you want to keep using dots then instead doing
j and z (similar sounds) use z and d, or z and r.
Or use new symbols all together.
By the way L does not need a dot or a new symbols. It needs (peir wich haha).
more later.
Okay, I undertand your concern about the representation of Persian sounds in Gurmukhi, but are there any other issues involved? Were there any other problems in the Gurmukhi alphabet that were serious enough to cause problems?
One thing that I can think of is the "addak" symbol (which doubles consonants). I often notice that this symbol is used very inconsistently. Often a certain word will be written using the addak, and then a few sentences later, the same word will appear without it... in the same paragraph! I believe this is a matter of spelling ambiguities and could probably be alleviated with standardization.
Now, about the Persian sounds. You stated that the Gurmukhi alphabet was incomplete in its current form. Do you mean that there are OTHER sounds besides the Persian sounds that are omitted from Gurmukhi? Because, as I see it, the Persian sounds are definitely included in the Gurmukhi alphabet and are not missing. The only problem is that some people would say that they are poorly represented. I, however, feel that the dotted letters are perfectly acceptable ways to represent these sounds... the only problem is that PEOPLE are not consistent.
And this is the problem we are addressing. By designing new symbols to represent these sounds, we are essentially trying to give these sounds distinct, individual appearances so that they are not confused with or substituted by other letters.
I think that the Punjabi language would definitely be written more accurately if the Persian sounds had their own letter forms. What I'm concerned about now, however, is the possiblity of successfully introducing these new letters to an alphabet which is already quite widely used and has been used for a very long time. On one hand, it might be difficult to have this change adopted by everyone. On the other hand, perhaps this is a better time than ever, with the rising levels of communications techonology, to do this.
Anyways, your opinions, reflections, concerns...
Raaj:
yes you got them all. z,f,kh,gh,sh and l. Q people could argue but I don't think it is needed. Soem thing I still want to stress is that not too long ago we used these sounds (before urdu came with the UP people and English, Persian used to be the official language of punjab).
To illustrate the point I know people say yuice instead of juice, and mazboor instead of majboor and jaroori instead of zaroori. so the sounds were there and still are (at least some of them, and if we combine both punjabs then they all exist).
A script would make it easier to remember for people which sound is attched to what. How do get these accepted? well i will try to make my own website and put these there. obviously i will solicit input from scholars across the world and have lesson in it.
It is not easy. bY no means a one man effort. That is why I am requesting that we all join hands in this endeavor.
regards.
I understand what you are saying. Spelling errors would be much less frequent if the Persian sounds had unique symbols of their own. This is shown by the fact that, although I always hear people say "bich" and "baal", these words are consistently written properly as "vich" and "vaal". Since the v and b sounds have separate symbols, people don't use them interchangeably.
In theory, there's nothing wrong with the idea of dotted letters. But in practice, people don't use them consistently. If everybody recognized the dotted letters and their distinction, then we wouldn't have a problem. But unfortunately, this is not the case.
So the sounds in question are SH, KHH, GHH, Z, F, and the retroflex L. Have I covered them all?
If we were to design new symbols for these sounds, then I realize one issue to be addressed is how we would actually introduce the use of these symbols, and establish them as standard writing.
Anybody - Would you be interested in trying to replace the dotted letters in Gurmukhi? I have been working on it and let me know if you would like to join in.
Raaj
That is the point I have been trying to get across. we must remember that Gurmukhi and Persian coexisted for about a 1000 years. And with East and West Punjab loosing one or the other our language has suffered. Let us not get into who lost more. But the agreement is that Gurmukhi is still the closest to the real Punjabi language, and if it the one that require least amount of modification.
Dots were only introduced in the early 20th century and was a terrible idea. So all I am saying that let us replace those dotted letters with new symbols, a minimum of thress and a maximum of 6 and we will be all set. Then will have a uniform way of writing.
Actually, Mr. Bains, you are correct to say that pronunciation is important. And I too feel that it is. Every word has its proper sound, the way it should be uttered and it is definitely important that these sounds are enforced in the use of proper Punjabi. Now that I think about it, when I said that I was not concerned about pronunciation, I was speaking in regards to colloquial language use, the way that everyday people pronounce words differently than they are spelled. This is something that occurs in every language. Certain sounds are simply easier to pronounce than others (k instead of q), and sometimes there are certain trends and shortcuts in language that result in sound changes (chris-chen instead of christian).
However, the same should not be true for writing. I think we both agree that words should only be spelled according to their correct pronunciation. Words may be uttered differently but they need to be spelled the same. In English, there are different ways of saying many words (advertisement, schedule, either) but there is only one way of spelling them, which brings unity to its written form. Unfortunately, Punjabi currently lacks a universal standardization of spelling and therefore words are frequently spelled in many different ways. This is, of course, especially true of the dotted letters. This is part of your concern, right? You would probably know the circumstances surrounding this more than I, but I believe that a major cause is that people don't acknowledge the significance of the dotted letters and perhaps only see them as optional. As a result, people spell things the way that they are commonly (mis)pronounced. Something has to be done to enforce the distinction of the dotted letter sounds. This means that spelling kharbooja instead of kharbooza must not be accepted; it must be labelled as incorrect spelling.
Anyways, I hope to hear your feedback.
Raj
I think you should also be concerned about the pronounciation. If you say you are not, then what is wrong with shahmukhi? or for that matter devnagri?
A script is just a bunch of symbols and we attach sound patterns to symbols. Gurmukhi help us relate these symbols to the sounds. In shahmukhi and devnagri these symbols are connected to differetn sounds. shahmukhi has one advantage of preserving persian sounds which are poorly addressed by gurmukhi and devnagri. so devnagri is a way is furthest from punjabi sound. if you are just concerned about sound then why not use roman. forget even my solution. use
k kx g kxx(2nd row) for example. But you know that this will cause confusion as to what is what.
anyway my two cents.
Well, in any case, I'm far less concerned right now about pronunciation than writing. It's just that, around me, I always notice that people replace the v sound with b, the z sound with j, and so on. Even when they speak English (zipper becomes jipper).
But anyways, like I said, I'm more concerned with the writing. So, I just needed to clarify the concerns you had with the Gurmukhi alphabet. I'm still not sure as to exactly which missing sounds you were talking about. Right now, I believe you are referring to the dotted letters, right? Thanks
Raj - I disagree very much. The change came with disappearance of the Persian script. My uncles born in the 1920s and some born in the 1930s CLEARLY pronounce
Z, kh+. g+. Q, Y, sh etc. The thing with Y and J is that some words have exceptions. eg. sanskrit is yogi punjabi/prakrit is jogi, persian is yaa, punjabi is yaan or jaan. there are many words in which people clearly pronounce the Y sounds. i dont know how punjabi these words are but Yojna, yoda are pronounced with y by a lot of people.
W: again you say it is pronounced B in punjabi. well some of that you can attribute to influence of hindi/urdu in the doaba malwa region. so in rural majha it is wechNa, and in doaba it is bechna(to sell). i would tell you that people do/can pronounce
W in those regions. Eg. bare is pronounced ware, birho vs. wirho etc.
Whereas if you at majha portion of pakistan these problems do not exit. But they have their own problems which you can say is due to the elimination of gurmukhi. And which for which urdu is UNABLE to address. Since you said you know shahmukhi you must be aware of these. Eg. kol (l+.), pani,paNi.
let me know if i addressed your concerns. I am glad that we are talking about this.
best regards,
#1 09-03-2000, 12:20 PM
Raj Posts: n/a
Mr. Bains: I am not quite sur
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Mr. Bains:
I am not quite sure if I know exactly which missing sounds you are talking about. According to my understanding, you are referring to the sounds produced by the dotted letters, which are SH, KHH, GHH, Z, F, and the recently introduced retroflex L. It is true that words containing these letters are frequently misspelled. I believe that one major reason that this occurs because, in spoken Punjabi, a lot of people simply never pronounce these sounds. This also applies to two other letters, V and Y, which are also often replaced with a J sounds in spoken and sometimes written Punjabi. For example, "yaad" (memory) is usually pronounced "jaad", and "vechna" (to sell) is pronounced "bechna".
When it comes to spoken Punjabi, this substitution of sounds is perfectly natural and acceptable, and it occurs in many other languages as well. However, the substitution of letters in WRITING is not acceptable and needs to be addressed, because if such behaviour is allowed, then Punjabi will end up having multiple spelling for a single word. This becomes a major problem when it comes to recognizing words written by other people. Standardized spelling is absolutely necessary in order for Punjabi to function well in the modern world. Without standardized spelling, one can experience a lot of difficulty looking up words in a dictionary, using a spell check, or searching for a word in a search engine, for example. Therefore, something definitely needs to be done to distinguish these letters in writing.
Again, I'm not sure whether you're referring to these particular sounds. But I definitely agree that people need to be consistent in distinguishing these sounds from one another in writing, regardless of how they may pronounce the words.
Anyways, I just need to know if we're talking about the same problem here. Was this the flaw that you mentioned needed to be addressed in Gurmukhi? Anything in addition to this?
Hope to see your and anybody's reply.
ps. It's true, as you mentioned, that "cchadna" (to release) is often pronounced "shadna", but what I don't understand is how this occurance is related to the use of bindian... (???).. or am I misunderstanding something?
Raj
i agree with you. I even made the point that the script was not even invented by sikh gurus. though their using it in their Baani help preserve it and they deserve the credit.
My only point of disagreement with you and others is that gurmukhi is NOT COMPLETE as it is used in its current format. There are not dots in Gurbani, and we need to invent new symbols for those 3 or 4 missing sounds that i mentioned. And it is ever more necessary now that persian script has disappeared from Punjab. If one is well versed in Persian then he can easily correct the mistakes of Gurmukhi, but somebody unaware fo Persian script will most probably mispronounce it. let me know what u think.
Hi,
Thank you very much Mr. Bains for your reply.
I just want to stress the importance of your statement that all Punjabis should learn
the Gurmukhi script. I believe you are very correct. I, myself, read both Gurmukhi and
Shahmukhi, although my command of the latter script is much weaker. And having
compared the use of both scripts for the Punjabi language, I feel that Gurmukhi is
definitely the better, more suitable one for the written language. I'm not certain, but
I'm pretty sure that Gurmukhi is already generally accepted as the primary script of
Punjabi around the world. This is based on the fact that every piece of instructional
material in Punjabi, including dictionaries and phrasebooks, that I've ever seen has
utilized the Gurmukhi script.
Furthermore, I can guess that Gurmukhi would be far more compatible with computers
than Shahmukhi, for it is written in the left-to-right format which is standard in
computers and is shared by the Roman alphabet. For this reason, Gurmukhi fonts can
be used quite easily in almost any word-processing program and, unlike Shahmukhi, no special software is required to be able to change the format to right-to-left. In
addition, the letters of the Gurmukhi alphabet do not undergo any change in
appearance as they attach to form a word. I know that there is sometimes some
adjustment required (related to the positioning of superscript symbols, such as the
kanna), but this is very minimal. In the Shahmukhi script, however, a single letter can
have multiple forms, depending on how it is connected to its adjacent letters, and this feature would also have to be accomodated in the computer. Of course, where only
paper and pen are concerned, both scripts are equally favourable. But as we shift
from the traditional pen and paper to a keyboard and monitor, I am quite confident
that Gurmukhi is simply much easier and accessible. (Now if only I were a computer
genius and could actually support all this with the technical mumbo-jumbo reasoning!
:) )
So.... in my eyes, what we need is for all the Punjabi-speaking people of the world to
learn the Gurmukhi script. We need to establish Gurmukhi as the single, official script
of the Punjabi language. Once we have done this, a great communication barrier will
have been overcome between the Punjabi people of the world. This will also give
Punjabi strength as a modern, written, spoken, and studied language in the world. Oh
how cool it would be to see Punjabi, in the Gurmukhi script, as a built-in language
option alongside Korean and Greek on my internet explorer!
Now, I understand that many Punjabi people may be reluctant to adopt the Gurmukhi
script due to its association with the Sikh religion. This is the main problem, isn't it?
So, here's the solution: Stop associating scripts with religions! We need to target,
destroy, annihilate, burn, crush, strangle, drop-kick, and ELIMINATE the connection
between the writing system and religion, for it is a major hindrance to the
development and progress of Punjabi. The Gurmukhi script is an organized system of
written symbols which represent the sounds of a particular language, and which is
used to write the Punjabi language. This is basically what any script is -a means of
writing a language. So where does the religious label become necessary? The fact is,
it isn't necessary. This notion of religious association only exists in our minds, and
infects our perspective of what is simply a practical writing system. We need to shed
this notion and try to think in an unbiased fashion. I am neither a Muslim nor a Sikh,
and the only reason for which I prefer the Gurmukhi script is that I find it much easier
to use and I suspect that it will be more promising in the future. If you are bothered by the fact that the word "Gurmukhi" means "proceeding from the mouth of the Guru", either call it something else, or get over it!
Anyways, I hope my words make sense ... one thing that I do know is that I'm not going to scroll all the way back up there to make sure! So let me know what you think. Tell me if agree, if you disagree, if there's something I've overlooked, or whatever. 'Cause, you know, as of yet, I've never had anyone come up to me and scribble "EXPERT" on my forehead with a big, black marker. And I really do enjoy reading and considering everyone's opinions here.
God bless, and Shukriya.
:)
