3. 《听说大突破》 Art and Culture压码听懂练习

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1. 第2册1. Art and Culture的前14分钟49.6秒语音对应的文本

                1. Art and Culture

SIDE A


OK, today's topic is art ....and culture.... and this is.... kind of like.... a modern topic,
.......something .....we can kind of, um,...... get into here. ....This is Viv.

Vivian:

......Yes,..... well, .....art and culture,.... it's such a broad, .......ah rather .....spectrum to discuss,
.....You know, ....I really have to ....admit .....that I'd love .....to be thought.... of as arty farty,
.....but I don't think.... I am, .....so I'm just gonna turn it.... to you, Bow.

Bow:

..... Hey,.... my name is Bow...... I consider myself arty fatty,
......but,.... um, .....yes I like .....things from,
......everything from..... Hycroppoties.... to Matisse ....to Picasso,
....and Mondrian,.... and culture,.... you know ....everything..... from the ....West Indies,
... you know,.... pygmies to Yoga.

Luke:

..... That's cool,..... I don't,.... I never really thought.... I was arty,
...... I used to..... really try, ....really hard t....o be arty.
...... I used to .....try to play guitar, .....but I wasn't.... very good at that,
...... and then ...I tried painting,.... and I wasn't very good ....at that.
.....But then.... I started painting guitars, .....and um, ....
.....I have a..... whole collection ....of painted guitars.
......I call ....it "Guit-art" ....and urn,.... I hope..... I can start hanging it up..... at museums pretty soon,
......so look up for it.

Vivian:

And I got ......one of those.... in my bathroom, ....too?

Luke:

Yeah, ....talk to me,..... if you need.... my number.... or whatever...

Daisy:

Anyway,.... Let's get ...into it.

Luke:

O.K.

Daisy:

O.K...... Well,.... you know, ....I often..... considered myself,
..... you know, ....to have quite .....a good appreciation of art.
.....But these days, .....what constitutes.... art, .....could be..... many different things.
..... So, ...what do you think ......then is Art, ....and ....what makes Art,... Art.

Luke:

.... I guess.... the main thing..... for me.... that would constitute Art is,
.... um, ....it's, well,.... basically .....in it's purest form.
.....Art is just .....this random spurting.... of creative impulse,
....like, ....if you will..... And... it doesn't .....really have ....a purpose,
.....a functional purpose, .....except for functional Art, ....I guess.
..... Which ....by its own definition is, ......has a purpose, ....and has a function.
.....But,.... well,.... I mean, ....just pure Art.... in itself is, ....um,
..... is something ....that doesn't really ....serve any purpose,
..... like it,.... it won't,.... it won't ....grate your cheese,
.....and it won't, .....you know .....make your hair smell nice ....or anything.

Daisy:

.....So, then,..... you're saying.... that Art..... is, ....functional only ....for the person ....that creates it?
.... Cause, .....Paul Cezanne ....said that, ...that Art was ....in the process, ....not the finished product,
.....so, ....if it doesn't..... serve a purpose, ....is it only ....serving some type of,
.....release.... for the artist himself?

Luke:

.....Or the appreciator .....of the Art, .....someone, ....obviously, ....people ....who appreciate Art,
.....appreciate,..... the same ......that was evident.... when the art was created.

Daisy:

.... So then,.... it does serve a purpose.

Luke:

..... Of course,..... but not..... that sort of tangible.... functional purpose,
.....I mean,.... it's more of ....a spiritual purpose, ....it's more ....a personal purpose.

Bow:

....Except ...for functional Art.

Luke:

..... Except for functional Ar.....t like a really .....cool looking chair.
.....It's cool looking ....and it maybe might, .....make you..... feel something.
....If it's red,.... it might ....make you think,
..... "Ooh, I'm, f.....eeling very passionate, .....that really speaks... to me",
....and then.... when you sit it in, ....you're sitting down,.... and, hey...

Bow:

.... So, O.K..... What do you..... think about,..... Ducharnp, ...
.....and his ....Urinals.... and things like that, ....Do you believe that...., that was Art... or not?

Luke:

.... I'd have to.... see his stuff,.... I guess.

Bow:

....Well, ...it's a urinal.

Luke:

...It's a urinal?

Bow
..
.....: Yeah, ....he just took.... a urinal off the wall.

Daisy:

..... But, ....wasn't he the first person ....to ever do that?

Bow:

....Well, ....that's the thing.

Daisy:

.... Right, I mean,..... it's the same thing ....with Andy Warho....l and his... cans of soup,
.....the fact ....that he did something different, .....created a .....whole new genre of Art,
.... which,.... you know,..... is artistic..... in itself.... to be able to do something... individualistic.

Bow:

..... But,.... is it Art just..... because of ....in that sense,.... it's shocking,
..... because ....no one's done it.... before. ....So,... is shocking.... Art ....considered ....Art?

Luke:

....Sure,.... I think it says..... something ...about society,
....it's a bit of a reflection of society..... I think.... that ....Andy Warhol ....and the tomato cans,
.... was saying .....something about.... like advertising,
.....and no one ....had been around like ....this much like ....banners... and this iconographic ....sort of representation .....of just everyday things
(Bow: According to Andy Warhol)
.....he blew..... that up. ....But I mean, ....a lot people responded ...to it,
.... and like ....the comic books ....and stuff.
.... And just these like.... really simple images... that are just everywhere ....
.....that.... becomes.... the part of.... the collective consciousness.

Vivian:

....O.K. ....But for simple me, ....who's not interested in Art.
....Who has no..., you know,.... no idea, ....no concept, ...
....no grasp of aa.... in depth part of.... any of the Arts.
.... For me, ....I just define Art ...as music,... Art..... What else is there?

Daisy:

Yeah.

Vivian:

.... Yeah,.... well like any sort.... of performance,... ok.... That's Art. .....It is ....what someone says,
.... it's what,.... I define it ....in my simple mind,
....but then,.... when you guys.... talk like this ....then it sounds.... to me like,
....it's any sort of simple.... personal ....(Daisy: Expression?) ....expression of yourself,
...of your emotions,... of yourself, ...of anything,
.... so, ...dance... through music, ....through song, ...through, ....through any of those.... venuses,
.... you can ....express yourself,.... and that is Art.

Daisy:

.....You know, ...Alice Walker, ...who wrote, ....the movie..... "The Color Purple",
.... with the book, ....she wrote an essay about..... Art... and women artists,
.... because ...it's been quite.... a struggle ....for women..... to become ....successful artists,
....especially, ....you know, ....way back.... in the 50's ....or in the 40's.
....But, ....she was saying that, ....you know, .....it's been ....a struggle... for women,
....but think about ....what it was like..... for the slaves,
.... in America, ....when they first came here.
..... Not only ....were women,.... like chattels ...and ....basically worked ....all the time.
.... If they were, .....did have an artistic soul,
....how were they ....going to express it?
..... And she was saying..... that they expressed it ....in everyday things.
..... Look ....at the quilts..... that.... African American.... women made.

Vivian:

....I was just about.... to say that.

Daisy:

.Things like that.

Vivian:

.... Look ....at the clothes ....and the quilts ....that they made.
....Those are.... expression ...of themselves.

Daisy:

....The negro spirituals.... that they sang ....while they were working on,
.... you know, ....the farms ....and things like that.
.....There was..... always an expression ....of Art, ....even though, ....they were... in a position in society,
.....where they weren't .....able to sell it ....or share it.... with other people.
....They share,.... shared it ....with their family, ....and passed it.... on as heirlooms ....to their family.

Bow:

.....And through.... their Art, ....they have created.... their own culture.

Daisy:

Right.

Bow:

.....And I believe..... that this is ....something that,
..... they are ....forgetting about, ......here in Korea.....
..... I think ....that they used to have..... a really strong culture..... and they had,
.....great art, ....they still do,..... I mean, ....some old things.
.....But they're losing.... that in the face of, ......you know, ....capitalism... and ...
..... I think ....Korea is really losing ....its.... national identity ....that it once had.
....Whereas uh,.... if they could take..... some of those traditional ....Arts.... that were so strong,
.....and mix them.... with ....modern .....day ideas.
....Then they would..... create their .....own national identity ....and then ....create their own culture,
again. ....And, ....for bands,... and stuff like that,....
....they just rip off ....other music... and just change the language.... is not doing that.
.... I think that, ....you know, ....taking some of the...
....I'm not a musician,.... but ....in all aspects of if ....in fashion.
.....They actually .....started a little bit in,..... for example,.... the Korean.... traditional clothes,
.....they're making them more..... contemporary looking..... but they are.... based on the design.... of the Korean style.
.....Architecture,.... not so much,.... it's more based on, .....again ....capitalism
.... (Luke: Function) ....and population, ....and you know, .
.......putting as many people ......into the maximizing the space .....and things ....like that.
.....And whereas.... traditional style,..... Korean architecture,.... was just amazing.
.... It was, ....there was ....so much spirituality ....and philosophy ...in it,
.....that it,..... it came, ....you know, ....from t.....hese people's inspirations
......and their culture .....and they created .....these great pieces of, ....these great works.
.......And..... for one example, .....is take ....Japan.
..... Japan has a very strong..... contemporary..... national identity.
.....If you see,..... well,.... ok,.... whatever, ...whoever studied ....what.
....like ...I studied, ....for example,.... I studied architecture,
.....so when.... I see a contemporary style ...building,.... I can tell you.... if it's Japanese.... or not.
.....If you here ....a piece of music...., that,.... you know, ...
......probably can figure out..... that it's Japanese ....contemporary style,
.....or clothing ....or painting.... They have, um, ....they have always.... have been good at,
.....doing that, ....getting together ....and saying that, ....
.....we're gonna take a piece of our..... tradition ....and we’re gonna mix it ....with this new stuff.
..... Whereas ....in other countries, um,.... they're just taking it on, ...full on..... All Right.

Bow:

....Well, I mean,.... it is starting ....a little bit here, ....but it's not,.... they don't quite.... have the idea.

Daisy:

....Yeah, ....which gets ....back to the point ....I think ....we were talking about.... before,
.....with the urinal ....and the,.... you know, ...and Andy Warhol.
.... What they did..... was incredibly.... simplistic,
..... you know,.... in the basest ....form of simplicity,...
...... ripping a urinal,.... you know,.... off a wall.... or putting painting.... a picture.... of a soup can.

Vivian:
.
.....They weren't..... trying to complicate it ....anymore.... than it was.

Daisy:

.... But, ....it was the fact that, .....it, it had never been down.... before ....and it was shocking,
..... and that, ....I think ....is the essence of most Art.
.....Something .....that is original ....and individualistic,
..... and the problem ....here is, ....of course, ....you can take styles ....
.....and blend them.... to create something new.
..... But if you're just borrowing ....and doing something.... that is old .....and been.... done before,
..... and you're ....not putting... Korea..... for example, ...
.....Their old,... historical art, ......and their historical music is..... that .....uniquely Korean.
..... And we don't have...... their Asian scale.... or we don't ....in music,
..... we don't have .....their Asian design,..... their uniquely Korean design.
..... And if they are .....able to encourage that,...... make it ...modern,
.....and make something .....that is new, ....and just not borrow.... songs.... from everyone else.
...... Then they will ....have a complete.... and whole.... artistic culture.

Luke:

..... But Art is,.... informed .....by many things ....and depending on.... where the,
...... it says ....lot about ....the culture...... And the..... what the values of .....a culture are,
.....and it says..... a lot about.... the values of... ...and culture ....in turn..... feeds off Art.
.....There's a ......bit of a hybridization...... and cross-pollinization ..........of those two things.
..... Because .....when you get right ....down to it,.... everything kind of ...has been done,
..... everything has kind of ....been said. .....But as cultures evolve..... and as they cross-pollinate,
...... ideas spread around,.... people take that ....and things germinate ....and these,
...... weird new formations ....come up. .....And I think ....that's the thing, like,
..... in this day an age,.... where ....everything has really .....just been done... to death
...... It seems, ....and shock value .....is the only thing .....you can do now, .....like taking, ...
.....like, ....religious icons .....and pissing on them.... or something.
..... That's not, .....that doesn't really.... seem like art.....
..... it kind of is ....but I mean,..... there's so much stuff..... you can get just
......in the world around you..... and just like taking it ....with you
...... and borrowing it.... and making ...a pastiche of stuff.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian:

.....When you travel to.... a different country,
.....what is the.... whole point of travelling there
..... Because there...., it's, you ....want to.... experience their cultur....e and their ...national whatever.
.... You wanna, ....you wanna see, ...."Oh, this is their national dress, ....these are their buildings,"
....this is the reason ....why this country... is unique. ....Why do you ....wanna visit Vietnam?
..... Why do you wanna ....go to Japan?.... Well, ....I wanna.... see them... in their cultural,
....this is ....why their country ....is different ...from ours.
.....You see ....all these Koreans shows ...on TV. .....They go to ....Bulgaria,... they go to... Canada,
...... they go to ....Germany. ...Why?.... Because, oh,.... in this country,
...... they have these huge ....beer halls ....and they drink..... beers ....in these like... fifty-foot tall glasses... or whatever,....
..... you know. ....That is makes.... that country distinct.... and unique ....and it's own
...... And, ...ok, ....we can't ....live in the past,.... but, ....you modernize.... that to.... configure it ...with today.

Daisy:

.Right.

Bow:

..... I think.... that that's the problem..... If you go to .....other museums, ....and look ...at other cultures,
....and their Art,..... and you..... study their culture through.... their Art.
....It's usually, ....in a display .....an exhibition ....set up chronologically,
.... you see from.... this is what..... (Vivian: Time)... ...Yes, time,..
..... this is what..... is was then .....and it's moved to here.... and moved into,
.....you know,..... certain areas..... into contemporary times
...... But,... here,.... this is the strange part,.... it goes up to.... a certain time.
....... And, .....that's pretty much it...... All Stops... Yeah, ....it's not evolving.

Bow:

....Yeah,.... that's the end of that.

Daisy:

That's not evolving.

Luke:

....Well, ...that was a, ....that was a,... I think .....that was a political thing.
.....Wasn't there the, ....one of the presidents.... I think,.... had this big... industrial boom.
.... And the only emphasis.... that was ....that ever put on anything ....was like
.....we have to.... develop everything, ....we have to make.... buildings quick.
.... (Bow: Exactly) ....And just like .....we have to make... as many ....and as fast as possible,
..... and screw the Art. ....(Vivian: But thats the whole) .....
....And just now, .....I think .....that they're coming ....back to.... this place where,
..... it's sort of like, ...we have to, ....we have to ...live in this city,
.....we have to make it livable, ...we have to ....make it nice...
.... (Daisy: Aesthetically) .....aesthetically ....and that's the artistic, ...
....that's the artistic element ....which has sort of gotten
....Vivian: Lost??) .....put on the back-burner throughout the.... whole development of... a lot of these cities.., in...

Bow:

....That's why.... they lost their national identity..... Because,.... you,... it's got to be... a consistent thing,
..... you can't just stop it dead-on ....and say like ....."We will just fix it .....later once .....we get a bunch of money."

Daisy:

.... But, it is their, ...culture, ok, ....for us as far us to come in.... and say
.... (Vivian: Criticize?).... this is wrong ....and you have to... change this.

Bow:

I don't think ....we're saying it's wrong.... It's just,.... I mean in our opinions, ...
....yeah, it's our opinions, .....yeah, it might be wrong.
.....But yeah..., you know, ....we can't necessarily say t....hat we can give advice like,
....you know,..... this is what everybody should do.... I mean it, ...just seems common sense.

Vivian:

..... Not in defense of the Korean side,.... because we aren't attacking I want to say, .
....but, I mean, ....look at the Korean situation. ...
....We're saying, ...yeah, ....go back to your roots.... and pull from it,
.....you know, ...and develop, ....modernize it, .....so that,.... you know...., it blends in with,
.....you know.... other ideas of today...... But ....at the same time,.... look... at the Korean culture,
.....fifty years ago,.... the country ....was devastated, ....they lost everything ....and everything was in,
..... you know, ....shambles.... on the ground ....and they rebuilt ....the city of Seou....l for example,
.....and now it is .....not a third world country,.... but it is a very much..... industrialized city,
......that can compete.... with many other,....
...... you know, .....they're in the what.... top ten cities,.... biggest cities ....of the world.

分拆语音
1. 第2册1. Art and Culture的前14分钟49.6秒语音对应的文本

                1. Art and Culture

SIDE A

（原文错误修改）

OK, today's topic is art ....and culture.... and this is.... kind of like.... a modern topic,
.......something .....we can... kind of, um,...... get into here. ....This is Viv.
...(  Vivian:  yeah  uh.)

Vivian:

......Yes,well, .....art and culture,.... it's such a broad, .......ah rather .....spectrum ...to discuss,
.....You know, ....I really have to ....admit .....that I'd love .....to be ...thought.... of as arty farty,
.....but I don't think.... I am, .....so I'm just gonna turn it.... to you, ....Bow.

Bow:

..... Hey,.... my name is Bow...... I consider myself arty fatty,
......but,.... um, .....yes I like .....things from,
......everything from..... Hycroppoties.... to Matisse ....to Picasso,
....and Mondrian,.... and culture,.... you know ....everything..... from the ....West Indies,(uh)
... you know,.... pygmies to.... Yoga.

Luke:

..... That's cool,..... I don't,.... I never really ...thought I was... arty,
...... I used to..... really try, ....really hard t....o be arty.
...... I used to .....try to play guitar, .....but I wasn't.... very good at that,
...... and then ...I tried painting,.... and I wasn't very good ....at that.
.....But then.... I started painting guitars, .....and um, ....
.....I have a..... whole collection ....of painted guitars.
......I call it... "Guit-art" ....and urn,.... I hope..... I can start hanging it up..... at museums pretty soon,
......so look up for it.

Vivian:

And I got ......one of those in... my bathroom, ....too?

Luke:

Yeah, (um)....talk to me,..... if you need.... my number.... or whatever...

Daisy:

Anyway,.... Let's get ...into it.

Luke:

O.K.

......................................................................

Daisy:

O.K...... Well,.... you know, ....I... (I) often considered myself,
..... you know, ....to have quite .....a good appreciation of art.
.....But these days, .....what constitutes.... art, .....could be..... many different things.
..... So, ...what do you think ......then... is Art, ....and what makes ...Art,... Art.

Luke:

.... I guess.... the main thing..... for me.... that would constitute.... Art...
... is,..... um, ....it's, well,.... basically .....in it's purest form.
.....Art is just .....this random spurting.... of creative impulse,
....like, ....if you will..... And.(uh).. it (it's uh) doesn't .....really have ....a purpose,
.....a functional purpose, .....except for functional Art, ....I guess.
..... Which ....by its own definition is, ......has a purpose, ....and has a function.
.....But,.... well,.... I mean, ....just pure Art.... in itself is, ....um,
..... is something ....that doesn't really ....serve any purpose,
..... like it,.... it won't,.... it won't ....grate your cheese, .....and it won't, .
....you know .....make your hair smell nice ....or anything.

Daisy:

.....So, then,..... you're saying that.. Art..... is, (uh)....functional only ....for the person ....that creates it?.... Cause, .....Paul Cezanne ....said that,
...that Art was ....in the process, ....not the finished product,
.....so, ....if it doesn't..... serve a purpose, ....is it only serving ...some type of,
.....release.... for the artist himself?

Luke:

.....Or the appreciator .....of the Art, .....someone, ....obviously, ....people ....who appreciate... Art,
.....appreciate,..... the same (thing) that... was evident.... when the art was created.

Daisy:

.... So then,.... it does serve a purpose.

Luke:

..... Of course,..... but not..... that sort of tangible.... functional purpose,
.....I mean,.... it's more of ....a spiritual purpose, ....it's more ....a personal purpose.

Bow:

....Except ...for functional Art.

Luke:

..... Except for functional Art.... like a really .....cool looking chair.
.....It's cool looking ....and it maybe might, .....make you..... feel something.
....If it's red,.... it might ....make you think,
..... "Ooh,... I'm, feeling very passionate, .....that really speaks... to me",
....and then.... when you sit it in, ....you're sitting down,.... and, hey...

Bow:

.... So, O.K..... What do you..... think about,(uh).... Ducharnp, ...
.....and his ....Urinals.... and things like that, ....Do you believe that...., that was Art or ...not?

Luke:

.... I'd have to.... see his stuff,.... I guess.

Bow:

....Well, ...it's a urinal.

Luke:

...It's a urinal?

Bow
..
.....: Yeah, ....he just took a urinal.... off the wall.

Daisy:

..... But, ....wasn't he the first person ....to ever do that?

Bow:

....Well, ....that's the thing.

Daisy:

.... Right, I mean,..... it's the same thing ....with Andy Warho....l and his... cans of soup,
.....the fact ....that he... did something different, .....created a .....whole new genre of Art,
.... which,.... you know,..... is artistic in... itself.... to be able to do something... individualistic.

Bow:

..... But,.... is it Art ....just because.... of in that sense,.... it's shocking,
..... because ....no one's done it.... before. ....So,... is shocking.... Art ....considered ....Art?

Luke:

....Sure,.... I think it says..... something ...about society,
....it's a bit of a reflection of society..... I think.... that ....Andy Warhol ....and the tomato cans,
.... was saying .....something about.... like advertising,
.....(and) and no one ....had been around like ....this much like ....banners... and this iconographic ....sort of representation .....of just everyday things
(Bow: According to Andy Warhol)
.....he blew..... that up. ....But I mean, ....a lot people responded ...to it,
.... and like ....the comic books ....and stuff..... And just these like
.... really simple images... that are just everywhere ....
.....that.... becomes.... the part of.... the collective consciousness.

Vivian:

....O.K. ....But for simple me, ....who's not... interested in Art. ...Who has no...,
..... you know,.... no idea, ....no concept, ...
....no grasp of aa.... in depth part of.... any of the Arts.
.... For me, ....I just define Art ...as music,... Art....(um). What else is there?

Daisy:

Yeah.

Vivian:

.... Yeah,.... well like any sort.... of performance,... ok.... That's Art. ..(and)...It is ....what someone says,
.... it's what,.... I define it ....in my simple mind,
....but then,.... when you guys.... talk like this ....then it sounds.... to me like,
....it's any sort of simple...(um). personal ....(Daisy: Expression?) ....expression of yourself,
...of your emotions,... of yourself, ...of anything,
.... so, ...dance... through music, ....through song, ...through, ....through any of those.... venuses,
.... you can ....express yourself,.... and that is... Art.

Daisy:

.....You know, ...Alice Walker, ...who wrote, (uh)....the movie..... "The Color Purple",
....with ( with) the book, (uh)....she wrote an essay about..... Art... and women artists,
.... because ...it's been ....quite a struggle ....for women..... (amd) to become ....successful artists,
....especially, ....you know, ....way back.... in the 50's ....or in the 40's.
....But, ....she was saying that, ....you know, .....it's been ....a struggle... for women,
....but think about ....what it was like..... for... the slaves,
....(in a)  in America, ....when they first came here.
..... Not only ....were women,..(Um).. like chattels ...and ....basically worked ....all the time.
.... If they were, .....did have an artistic soul,
....how were they ....going to express it?
..... And she was saying..... that they expressed it ....in everyday things.
..... Look ....at the quilts..... that African American.... women made.

Vivian:

....I was just about.... to say that.

Daisy:

.Things like that.

Vivian:

.... Look ....at the clothes ....and the quilts ....that they made.
....Those are.... expression of themselves.

Daisy:

....The negro (uh)...( negro) spirituals.... that they sang ....while they were working on,
.... you know, ....the farms ....and things like that.
.....There was..... always an expression ....of Art, ....even though, ....they were... in a position in society,
.....where they weren't .....able to sell it ....or share it.... with other people.
....They share,.... shared it ....with their family, ....and passed it.... on as heirlooms ....to their family.

Bow:

.....And through.... their Art, ....they have created.... their own... culture.

Daisy:

          Right.

Bow:

.....And(uh)... I believe..... that this is ....something that,
..... they are ....forgetting about, ......here in... Korea.....
....(uh). I think ....that they used to have..... a really strong ....culture and they had, .....great ....art, they still do,..... I mean, ....some old things.
.....But they're losing.... that in the face of, ......you know, ....capitalism... and ...
..... I think ....Korea is really losing ....its.... national identity ....that it once had.
....Whereas uh,.... if they could take..... some of those ....traditional ....Arts that were so strong,
.....and... mix them.... with... ..(uh)..modern day... ideas.
....Then they would..... create their .....own national identity ....and then .(uh)...create their own culture, again.
....And, ..(for)...for bands,... and stuff like that,....
....they just rip off ....other music... and just change the language.... is not... doing that.
....(I) I think that, ....you know, ....taking some of the...(uh)
....I'm not a musician,.... but ....in all aspects of if ....in fashion.
.....They actually .....started a little bit in,.....(uh) for example,.... the (uh) Korean.... traditional clothes,
.....they're making them more..... contemporary looking..... but they are.... based on the design.... of the Korean style.
....(um).Architecture,.... not so much,.... it's more... based on, .....again ....capitalism
.... (Luke: Function) ....and population, ....and (uh)you know, .
.......putting as many people ......into the (uh) maximizing the space .....and things like that.
.....And whereas.... traditional style,..... Korean architecture,..(uh).. was just amazing.
.... It was, (uh)....there was ....so much spirituality (and)....and philosophy ...in it,
.....that it,..... it came, (um)....you know, ....fromt.....hese people's inspirations
......and their culture .....and they created ....(and) these great pieces of, ....these great works.
.......And..... for one example, .....is take (uh)....Japan.
..... Japan has a very strong..... (uh) contemporary..... national identity.
.....If you see,..... well,.... ok,.... whatever, ...whoever studied what like ...I studied, ....for example,.... I studied architecture,
.....so ...when I see... a contemporary style ...building,.... I can tell you.... if it's Japanese.... or not.
.....If you here ....a piece of music...., that,.... you know, ...
......probably can figure out..... that it's Japanese ....contemporary style,
.....or (or) clothing ....or painting.... They have, um, ...(they)...they have always.... have been good at,
....(uh).doing that, ....getting together ....and saying that, ....
.....we're gonna take a piece of our..... tradition ....and we’re gonna mix it ....with this new stuff.
..... Whereas ....in other countries, um,.... they're just taking it on, (    great) )...full on..... All Right.

Bow:

....Well, I mean,.... it is starting ....a little bit here, ....but it's not,....(  yeah) they don't quite.... have the idea.

Daisy:

....Yeah, ....which gets ....back to the point ....I think ....we were talking about.... before,
.....with the urinal ....and the,(uh).... you know, ...and Andy Warhol.
.... What they did..... was incredibly.... simplistic,
..... you know,.... in the basest ....form ...of simplicity,...
...... ripping a urinal,.... you know,.... off a wall.... or putting... painting a picture.... of a soup can.

Vivian:
.
.....They weren't..... trying to.... complicate it ....anymore.... than it was.

Daisy:

.... But, ....it was the fact that, .....it, it had never been down.... before ....and it was shocking,
..... and that, ....I think ....is the essence of most... Art.
.....Something that is ...original ....and individualistic,
..... and the problem ....here is, (and um)....of course, ....you can take styles ....
.....and blend them.... to create something ...new.
..... But if you're just borrowing ....and doing something.... that is old (and)....and been done before,
..... and you're ....not putting... Korea..... for example, ...
.....Their old,... historical art, ......and their historical music is..... that .....uniquely Korean.
..... And we don't have...... their(uh).... Asian scale.... or we don't ...(uh).in music,
..... we don't have .....their Asian design,..... their uniquely Korean design.
..... And if they are .....able to encourage that,...... make it ...modern,
.....and make something .....that is new,and.... just not... borrow.... songs.... from everyone else.
...... Then ...they will ....have a complete.... and whole.... artistic culture.

Luke:

..... But Art is,...(it's) informed .....by many things ....and depending on.... where the,
...... it says ....lot about ....the culture...... And the.(and ).... what the values of .....a culture are,
.....and it says..... a lot about.... the values of... ...and(in) culture ....in turn..... feeds off... Art.
.....There's a ......bit of a hybridization...... and cross-pollinization ..........of those two things.
..... Because .....when you get right down... to it,.... everything kind of ...has been done,
..... everything has kind of ....been said. .....But as cultures evolve..... and as they cross-pollinate,
...... ideas... spread around,.... people take that (and)...and things germinate ....and these,
...... weird new formations ....come up. .....And I think ....that's the thing, like,
..... in this day an age,.... where ....everything has really .....just been done... to death
...... It seems, .(and)...and shock value .....is the only thing .....you can do now, .....like taking, ...like, ....religious icons .....and pissing on them.... or something.
..... That's not, .....that doesn't really.... seem like art.....
..... it kind of is ....but I mean,..... there's so much stuff..... you can get just
......in the world around you..... and just like taking it ....with you...(  uh)
...... and borrowing it.... and making ...a pastiche of stuff.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian:

.....When you travel to.... a different country,
.....what is the.... whole point of travelling there
..... Because there...., it's, ...you want to.... experience their culture ...and their ...national whatever.
.... You wanna, ....you wanna see, ...."Oh, this is their national dress, ....these are their buildings,"
....this is the reason ....why this country... is unique. ....Why do you ....wanna visit Vietnam?
..... Why do you wanna ....go to Japan?.... Well, ....I wanna.... see them... in their cultural,
....this is (it)....why their country ....is different ...from ours.
.....You see ....all these Koreans shows ...on TV. .....They go to
....Bulgaria,... they go to... Canada,...... they go to ....Germany. ...Why?.... Because, oh,.... in this country,
...... they have these huge ....beer halls ....and they drink..... beers ....in these like... fifty-foot tall glasses... or whatever,....
..... you know. ....That is makes.... that country distinct....(oh)  and unique ....and it's own
...... And, ...ok, ....we can't ....live in the past,.... but (then), ....you modernize.... that to.... configure it ...with... today.

Daisy:

.Right.(Right.)

Bow:

..... I think.... that that's the problem..... If you go to ...(uh)..other museums, ....and look ...at other cultures,
....and their Art,..... and you..... study their culture through.... their Art.
....It's usually, .(uh)...in a ...(in a)  display .....an exhibition ..(uh)..set up chronologically,
.... you see from.... this is what..... (Vivian: Time)... ...Yes, time,..
..... this is what..... is was then and... it's moved to here.... and moved into,
.....you know,..... certain areas into... contemporary times
...... But,... here,.... this is the strange part,.... it goes up to.... a certain time.
....... And, .....that's pretty much it....(  yeah    ).. All Stops... Yeah, ....it's not evolving.

Bow:

....Yeah,.... that's the end of that.

Daisy:

That's not evolving.

Luke:

....Well, ...that was a, ....that was a,... I think .....that was a political thing.
.....Wasn't there the, (the)....one of the presidents.... I think,.... had this big... industrial ...boom.
.... And the only emphasis.... that was ....that ever put on anything ....was like ....we have to.... develop everything, ....we have to make.... buildings quick.
.... (Bow: Exactly) ....And just like .....we have to make... as many ....and as fast as possible,
..... (but)...and screw the Art. ....(Vivian: But thats the whole) .....
....And just now, .....I think .....that they're coming ....back to.... this place where,
..... it's sort of like, ...we have to, ....we have to ...live in this city,
.....we have to make it livable, ...we have to ....make it nice...
.... (Daisy: Aesthetically) .....aesthetically ....and that's the artistic, ...
....that's the artistic element ....which has ...sort of gotten
....(Vivian: Lost??) .....put on the back-burner throughout the.... whole development of... a lot of these cities.., in...

Bow:

....That's why.... they lost their national identity..... Because,you,... it's got to be... a consistent thing,
..... you can't just stop it... dead-on ....and say like ....."We will just fix it .....later once .....we get a bunch of money."

Daisy:

.... But, it is their, ...culture, ok, ....for us as far ...us to come in.... and say Vivian: Criticize?)....
.... this is wrong ....and...(and)  you have to... change this.

Bow:

I don't think ....we're saying it's wrong.... It's just,.... I mean in our opinions, ...
....yeah, it's our opinions, .....yeah, it might be wrong.
.....But yeah..., you know, ....we can't necessarily say t....hat we can give advice like,
....you know,..... this is what everybody should do.... I mean it, ...just seems common sense.

Vivian:

..... Not in defense of the Korean side,.... because we aren't attacking... I want to say, .
....but, ...I mean, ....look at the.... Korean situation. ...
....We're saying, ...yeah, ....go back to your roots and ... (and) pull from it,
.....you know, ...and develop, ....modernize it, .....so that,.... you know...., it blends in with,
.....you know.... other ideas of today...... But ....at the same time,.... look at the... Korean culture,
.....fifty years ago,.... the country was ...devastated, ....they lost everything ....and everything was in,
..... you know, ....shambles on ...the ground ....and they rebuilt ....the city of Seou....l for example,
.....and now it is .....not a third world country,.... but it is a very much..... industrialized city,
......that ...can compete.... with many other,....

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2. 第2册 1.Art and Culture的14分钟49.6秒到29分03秒语音对应的文本



Daisy:

Well, you know,... I think that ...where this discussion ...is going can ...be a,... can relate to ...any country in the world.
.... Because culture ....and Art, ....I think.... go hand in hand.
.....Art is part ....of a culture... in many different ....cultures express their souls ....in different artistic ways .....that may offend..... many Westerners' ....artistic sensibilities.
..... So, ....where do we draw the line,..... where do we look.... at a culture ....and say.... "this is ok, ...but this is not ok" ....or is it even OK, ....for us to go into ....a culture ...and do that?

Bow:

....O.K. ....I was asked this one time, ....just to determine ....how people think ....about Art or not.
...... If they're, ....whether they're artists or .....not businessmen, t
.....hey say ....if there's a house ....and in this house .....there is a Mona Lisa, ...the original,
....and the... ....(Vivian: Oh really?) ....Yes, ...and the original Mona Lisa .....and there's the painting of Jackson Pollock ....where he painted the..... whole canvas just black.
(Daisy: Right) ......And there's a fire in the house .....and you can only save one painting.
....You appreciate Art, ....but you only have a chance... to save one, ....which one ....would you save?

Vivian:

.....Well, people would say..... Mona Lisa..... because you can always go.... and paint other canvas black, ...Right?
.... (Bow: No) ....But, ...at the same time, ....that's supposed ....to be a piece of Art.

Bow:

..... I don't know..... What is your opinion? .....(Vivian: That is the question) .....The question is ....what would you save?

Daisy:

I wouldn't. ...I would save myself.

Bow:

.....No, you can, ....you have, ....you have a chance, ....you can save one. ....You are an art-lover.


Vivian:

Like I said, ....yeah,.... probably the Mona Lisa, ....Obviously that is ....the right answer?

Bow:

No, There's no right ....or wrong answer,.... just like, ....do you know.... why you would save that?

Vivian:

Yeah, ....I just said. .....Because you could .....paint another canvas black....... (Daisy: Black) a.....nd then pass it off as the same.... painting ...if you wanted.

Daisy:

Well...

Luke:

Plus it's worth more.

Bow:

Well, ....that's.... what the thing is it's like, .....(Daisy: It's worth more.) ....do you think Art is,.... you know...?

Daisy:

.....Dose it have.... a price on it... .....I probably.... if I really ......wanted to save something,..... I'd maybe save.... the Pollock.
...Because,...... I don't like ....the Mona Lisa...... But that's just a, ....you know, ....I would hang a piece of pa,..... I would hang a piece of Art ....on my wall, .....because I liked it.
.....But my question .....was more getting towards like,.... cultural relativism.
.....You know,..... what is, ....is everything Art, ....including traditions .....or you know,.......
(Luke: Customs?) .....culture, .....cultural customs,.... is it relative to culture?
....... Or do we have the right...... to go into that country .....and say that this is wrong.

Vivian:

......O.K. And that is the debate ......even in America today, .......they're saying.... OHey,.... is burning of the flag.... is that ....symbolic is that showing,
..... you know,.... what is that,.... the freedom of ......(Luke: Expression...)..... expression .....or is it offending someone.
.....That's kind of along those line. ......You can never say .....what is right or wrong?

Daisy:

...... But that's ok...... For Americans to say that,..... to discuss that, .....because they're Americans.
......When I'm talking about is.... people going into.... other cultures ....and saying this is right .....or this is wrong.

Luke:

..... Well, .....I mean,.... why not?..... It's been happening over..... the history of Art ...and culture,... I mean. ..Romans.... and Greeks and.... (Vivian: History).... and everybody ....and Europeans ....and Africans, ....and everything has been mixed together, .....in kind of an eclectic mix, ....and the...

Daisy:

....So it's ok...., for organizations, .....like the U. N. .....to go in to countries.... and say this is violating human rights,....
..... for example, ....Eskimo culture,.... for thousands of years,.... they would kill their babies,....
..... because they didn't have enough..... food to eat...... That was a tradition,..... obviously,.... born out of necessity,... like most traditions are.
...... But in a culture like that, .....say,.... you know, ....obviously, .....it's not like that,.... today.
..... But, ....you know fifty years ago ....it was...... Is it ok..... for organizations.... like the U. N. .....to go in .....and say it's wrong,..... or eating dog meat... in Korea? .....Are allowed to go in there.... and say that that's wrong?

Bow:

So you're talking about .....more in the aspect of ....culture (Daisy: Yes)

Vivian:

.....The thing that..... are part of their culture...... O.K. ....For someone .....from another society ....where..... that not is acceptable..... to come into,
.....step into a different society.... where it is perfectly acceptable,.... I mean,.... it's not done .....intentionally .....with the thought of.... "Oh,..... I'm killing a baby ....or Oh,.... I'm killing dogs,.... because .....for the pleasure, ....what not?"
..... But here it's .....just simply a part of the culture...... It is a food or, ....you know..... Stamina food,... or whatever.

Daisy:

So, is that OK? .....What do you think, ...Luke?

Luke:

....Um, .....I, kind of, ....it's ... a kind of got to sit on the fence on that one.... I think there,.... there is a real danger..... to people going ....to other countries .....and taking this attitude ....of cultural superiority
.....which I really resent..... I don't think that ....Western culture.....
... Western culture is superior ....to any other culture, ....but there is a sort of post colonial attitude among .....a lot of countries ...where they, ....to a degree,.... they are interested in .......what the more developed countries think of them .....and their practices and everything.
..... But sometimes..... there's a bit of like danger.... in these more developed, ....quote unquote, ....developed countries ....coming in .....and criticizing stuff.
.... I think there's,.... there's got to be.... enlightenment on both sides... and agreement on ....there being differences .....and just,.... and interaction
...... And I think that the main thing is..... communication ....and having these things out in the open... so that people can discuss them.
....That's a dangerous movement,..... or this might be opening another ....can of worms ....but with the political correctness aspect of things back home.
...... And how people were told to..... stifle their ideas.... rather than express them.
....For example, ....there was,.... a bar I used to frequent,.... it was a sort of slash gallery,... I think, ....Bow, ....you might remember this.
.... It was a,..... the patrons were encouraged to paint ....on the canvases, ....with paints that were left out, .....and just create whatever.... they wanted as they were drinking ....and socializing.
.... It was a really nice atmosphere..... And, ....at want point someone made a painting, ....it was sort of a collage of things.
....But there was, ...a swastika,.... that was on the painting, i...s was very prominent, ....it was a sort of a dark painting over all.
....And later,.... it just sort of,.... was found on the floor,.... ripped to shreds.
.... And I think that was.... really weird ....that someone would, ....would rather, ....I guess that's sort of a reaction to Art.....
..... And sometimes art has those reactions, ...but I think it's dangerous.... when people refuse to acknowledge..... those things.... and refuse to accept them,
.....there's sort of the idea of censorship.... that's going on..... And I think ...that's really dangerous ....because,.... just by pretending some attitude ...or some practices,.... don't exist, .....does not mean that they will cease to exist,
.... I think,.... the basic thing is.... people have to be ....in communication ...with each other ....like with the dog issue...., the eating dogs in Korea.
.... I can't judge it, ....but I can, .....I can just speak with Koreans.... about my opinions on it, ....and they're, ...free to,.... and like say their opinions to me.
..... I don't think ...I'm right,.... I don't think they're right..... I think we are just people.... who have different opinions. .....And Art is sort of a stimulus .....for bringing those opinions out.

Daisy:

.....And also, ....you know,..... I think that.... you know, .....you look at some cultures.... quite a funny story actually.
....There was this one culture,.... in New guinea ....and you know,.... Christianity.... has been the fastest spreading thing.... I think in Western culture,
.....much more ....so probably.... than the internet. ....That, ....the, ...some missionaries .....from the United States ....went to this,.... went to New Guiana ....and they were just travelling around trying to.... convert the chris..,
.....the natives there, ....to christianity. ....And the ironic thing .....is that they went in to this one tribe, ....and the tribe ate the missionaries. ..They were cannibals....,
......you know. ....That's funny, ....I mean, .....that's one example of Western people .....not understanding other cultures .....and going in there without any knowledge,
.....I mean, ....these people didn't know..... they were walking aroun...d in the bush, ....and they were basically,... you know,... meat.

Luke:

... Exactly, ....I would never,.... I would never criticize Korea,.... I've chosen to leave here for a long time, ....not because.... I hate the place, ....and I have great criticisms about it, ...if I'm asked about it,.... I'll point out things that,
....you know....., I'm not that happy about. ....But I can do that.... with any where I am at,..
..... and you know, .....I definitely would not ....want to go to a country ...and say ...."Ah, you are doing it all wrong,.... blah, blah, blah, .....back where... I come from, .....blah, blah, blah,"
.... you know. .....And some people have that attitude,..... and I think that's probably the worst kind of attitude you can come.... Cause,.... there's so much to learn from different cultures. ....And that's what,.... that's really what it's all about, ...ultimately.

Vivian:

....But that's just it, ....of course,.... there are things ....that you don't agree ...with certain cultures with,.... same with me. ....There's lots of things that I don't agree with,.... but that's the fact of the matter,.... the fact of the matter is you are in a situation ....and a different culture ....and a different society where you,... as long as you are there, ....you should be accepting ....to their cultures, .....there, even though, ....there are things... that you don't agree with. ......Now, when you... look at the large scale ...

Luke:

.... Well, ....I'm not accepting of my own culture,...... there's a lot of things about.... my own culture I don't like.

Vivian:

... Sure,.... that's what I'm saying,...... there's lots of things we don't agree about.
..... But when you look at the large scale..... and then you see this dominant country ....coming into a smaller country,..... it's like the opposite effect ....and yet you have more presence there; ...so you have more,
....you know,..... power to kind of pressure the people... (Luke: Sure) ....or the culture.

Bow:

But having a little bit of your own culture.... in another country ....does make it ....a hell of a lot easier to live there.
..... I don't think ..I, if there wasn't.... any part of our culture... whatsoever, ....I don't think we could ....last as long as ....we have here.

Daisy:

... Right,.... I think that's probably true. .....And actually, ....when you um, ....you go.... and you live in another culture,.... I think it's also true that you will absorb..... things of that culture as well.
..... And you do change ...and evolve,.... and that's great thing....
..... I think, ...you know,.... if, you are learning ....or you are teaching in some,
..... you know, ...even,.... not even know... at the conscious level. ...That's wonderful.
....But, I was wondering,... you know, ....like most of, ....we talked about traditions ....and culture ...and a lot of those traditions..... are also ...perceived as Art... as well,.
...... especially like, ...you know,... in countries that,..... Luke brought out before, ....
...you know, ...in the middle east..... A lot of their Art.... and their practices and their rituals,...
.....if you consider that to be Art, .....are taken from a religious perspective as well,.... which is very interesting.

Luke:

....Yeah, .....religious Art, ....and political art, ...are probably the gawdiest kinds of Art,.... I think.... But...

Daisy:

You think?

Luke:

Yeah, .....but I think that that's alright..... I think that, ....if you look at the old propaganda posters.... from the cold wa....r and stuff
....(Daisy: Sure), ......and or if you just look at the pictures of... you know, .....Christ ....and just crying and everybody crying.
......, there were so like over the top ...and just,... unnatural, .....hat they sort of,.... they are sort of memorable ....for that reason.

Bow:

.....But you have to remember..... that those artists.... or artisans.... who made that stuff..... were products of their own environment,
.... you have learned.... form that time on,... you've experienced... what you have in your life.
....That's what they dedicated their lives to,.... they had a certain philosophy.......... that we don't know.
....... I think that some of that stuff is amazing,.... the Gothic cathedrals,.... that genera,.... that generations ....and generations of,.... families fathers ....and sons would work on.
..... Just to make this..,.... they had the same concept ....and they had the same goal,
.... I mean, ....that would never happen these days, ...in these days.

Daisy:

....So I guess,.... what we are probably getting on to here is that,
..... is that Ar.....t is a product of your own environment.... and that time certainly religion ....was such a big deal, ...that you were...., you were creating.... a lot of religious Art,... or architecture
.....and you know... then we go into the phase of,... you know, ...post modernism... where you have,..
...... you know, ..the black canvases and things like that.... (Luke: Existentialism) ...Yeah,... existentialism....
..... So, is it,... actually, ....that the Art is imitating life, ...or is life imitating Art?

Luke:

...I think they mutually inform ....and influence each other.

Vivian:

....That's like asking, ....was the chicken or the egg,..... they both influence each other,... of course.
...... But anything that you're unfamiliar..... with is sort of like Art to you.
..... Like .....when you enter into a culture ....where you are not familiar,.... everything is unique.... and different to you .....and becomes a form of Art, ....like Luke was saying religion ...
.....or you know, .....not just tapestries or paintings.... but the actual religion ....itself is an art .....when you not familiar with it.
.... When it's everyday to.... you it's nothing new,... it's no big deal.

Bow:

....The difference I see.... in Art and culture,.... today is that, ....in the past, ....there was always a period of time.... or movements....
..... and now,... because, ....maybe because of all that or,.... maybe because to go ...against all of that,
....there's,.... really not ....any sort of movement, ....no sort of ....(Daisy: Right) ...direction,... it seems to me.

Daisy:

It's very static..., isn't it?

Bow:

.... It is very static, ....and it just seems like ...everything is gonna turn into this,... gonna turn into cha..os it almost seems.

Daisy:

Right, right,..... I think that's true not just in ...visual Art,... either, ...I think the music industry... for several,
....maybe even, ...over a decade now, ...has been extremely static.
.... And there's only been ....maybe one or two artists ......that have really been,.... done inspiring things.
....But,.... I think perhaps,.... maybe we feel this way,.... but do not think.... that at the end of probably the classical period or,
.... you know,.... the renaissance period.... (Vivian:... There was a dead period) ...that there was,
.... you know, ....this plane of levelling out, .
.......perhaps, ...you know,.... this is what's happening to us, .....we're ready to move into the next...

Luke:

.... Or look at Retro ...everything, .....everything that's.... supposedly new, ....all the new trends ....and fads.... that are coming out here are..... borrowing like shamelessly... from the past... (Daisy: Exactly),... past twenty years,... past thirty years,... forty years.

Vivian:

Well, in any sort of movement you go up ....and down and up and down, ....and then you kind of plateau off and.... then you start all over again,... like,... Luke mentioned, ...with fashion anything ....that is popular today,
..... not just today, ...you know,... five years ago,.... that was the trend thirty years ago
...... And what's today ....is popular today..... Twenty five years ago.

Bow:

.....But you don't start off from the same starting point, ....and that's.... where it gets kinda mixed up.
.... It's because, ....and I think it kind of parallels..... the evolution of technology.
.....Like information,.... just the amount of information..... that is going into ...our brains,... these days, ...then was before.
.....Where people could concentrate more,.... like Michelangelo did his masterpiece .....in the Sistine chapel...
.... and you know,... he didn't have the internet,... you know,.... where he could get like details of hands ....and things like that..... He had to actually, ....go out and maybe draw his own hand or,... you know.

Vivian:

He got dead bodies... and he actually,... dissected that himself.

Bow:

Um. That was Da vinci (Daisy: Da vinci)

Vivian: Ok, ...but that's how they, ....you know.

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2. 第2册 1.Art and Culture的14分钟49.6秒到29分03秒语音对应的文本

（原文错误修改）

Daisy:

Well, you know,... I think that ...where this (some) ...discussion is going ...can ...be a,..(. ralate..)... can relate to ...any country in the world.(    Right)
.... Because culture ....and Art, ....I think.... go hand in hand.
.....Art... is part ....of a culture... in many different ....cultures(uh)... express their souls in ....different artistic ways .....that may... offend..... many Westerners' ..(uh  uh)..artistic sensibilities.
.....(um) So, ....where do we draw the line,..... where do we look.... at a culture and ...say.... "this is ok, ...but this is not ok" ....or is it even OK, for ...us to go into ....a culture ...and do that?

Bow:

....O.K. ....I was asked this one time, ....just to determine ....how people think about ...Art or not.(  ha ha)
...... If they're, ....whether they're artists or not ...businessmen,
....they say ....if there's a house ....and ...in this house .....there is a Mona Lisa, ...the original,
....and the... ....(Vivian:  ha ha Oh really?) ....Yes, ...and (um)... (and)the original Mona Lisa .....and there's the painting (uh)of Jackson Pollock ....where he painted the..... whole canvas just black.
(Daisy: Right) ......And there's a fire in the house .....and you can only save one painting.
..(Vivian:  ha ha  )..You appreciate Art, ....but you only have a chance... to save one, ....which one ....would you save?

Vivian:

.....Well, people would say..... Mona Lisa..... because you can always go.... and paint other canvas black, ...Right?
.... (Bow: No) ....But, ...at the same time, ....that's supposed ....to be a piece of Art.

Bow:

..... I don't know (was, would you).... What is your... opinion? .....(Vivian: That is the question) .....The question is ....what would you save?

Daisy:

I wouldn't. ...I would save myself.( oh)

Bow:

.....No, you can, ....you have, ....you have a chance, ....you can save... one. ....You are an art-lover.


Vivian:

Like I said, ....yeah,.... probably the Mona Lisa, .( )...Obviously that is ....the right answer?

Bow:

No, There's no right ....or wrong answer,.... just like, ....do you know.... why you would save that?

Vivian:

Yeah, ....I just said. .....Because you could .....paint another canvas black....... (Daisy: Black) and then pass it off as the same.... painting ...if you wanted.

Daisy:

          Well...

Luke:

          Plus it's worth more.

Bow:

Well, ....that's.... what the thing is it's like, .....(Daisy: It's worth more.) ....do you think Art is,.... you know...?

Daisy:

.....Dose it have.... a price on it... .....I probably.... if I really ......wanted to save something,..... I'd maybe save.... the Pollock.
...Because,...... I don't like ....the Mona Lisa...... But... that's just a, ....you know, ....I would hang a piece of pa,..... I would hang a piece of Art ....on my wall, .....because I liked it.
.....But my question .....was more ...getting towards like,(um)....(uh) cultural relativism.
.....You know,..... what is, ....is everything... Art, ....including traditions .(is or  uh)....or you know,.......
(Luke: Customs?) .....culture, .....cultural customs,.... is it relative to culture?
....... Or do we have the right...... to go into that country .....and say that this is wrong.

Vivian:

......O.K. And that is the debate ......even in America today, .......they're saying.... OHey,.... is burning of the flag.... is that ....symbolic is that showing,
..... you know,.... what is that,.... the freedom of ......(Luke: Expression...)..... expression .....or ..is it ...offending someone.
.....That's kind of along those line. ......You can never say .....what is right or wrong?

Daisy:

...... But that's ok...... For Americans to say that,..... to discuss that, .....because they're Americans.
......When I'm... talking about is.... people going into.... other cultures (is)....and saying this is right .....or this is wrong.

Luke:

..... Well, .....I mean,.... why not?..... It's been happening over..... the history of Art ...and culture,... I mean. ..Romans.(and)... and Greeks and.... (Vivian: History).... and everybody ....and Europeans ....and Africans, ....and everything has been... mixed together, .....in kind of an eclectic mix, ....and the...

Daisy:

...(so).So it's ok (for)...., for organizations, .....like the U. N. .....to go in ...to countries.... and say ...this is violating human rights,....
..... for example, ....Eskimo culture,.... for thousands of years,.... they would kill... their.... babies,....
..... because they didn't have enough..... food to eat...... That was a tradition,..... obviously,.... born out of necessity,... like most traditions... are.
...... But(uh)... in a culture like that, .....say,.... you know, ....obviously, .....it's not like that,.... today.
..... But, ....you know fifty years ago ....it was...... Is it ok..... for organizations.... like the U. N. .....to go in .....and say it's wrong,..... or eating dog meat... in Korea? .....Are allowed to go in there.... and say that that's wrong?

Bow:

So you're talking about .....more.... in the aspect of ....culture (Daisy: Yes)

Vivian:

.....The thing that..... are part of their culture...... O.K. ....For someone .....from another society ....where..... that not is acceptable..... to come into,
.....step into a...(a).different society.... where it is perfectly acceptable,.... I mean,.... it's not done .....intentionally .....with the thought of.... "Oh,..... I'm killing a baby ....or Oh,.... I'm killing dogs,.... because .....for the pleasure, ....what not?"
..... But here it's .....just simply ...a part of the culture...... It is... a food or, ....you know..... Stamina food,... or whatever.

Daisy:

So, is that OK? .....What do you think, ...Luke?

Luke:

....Um, .....I, kind of, .(that)...it's ... a kind of got to sit on.. the fence on that one.... I think there,.... there is a real danger..... to people going ....to other countries .....and taking this attitude of ...cultural superiority
.....which I really resent..... I don't think that ....Western culture.....
... Western culture is superior ....to any other culture, ....but there is a sort of post colonial attitude among .....a lot of countries ...where they, ....to a degree,.... they are interested in what... the more developed countries think of them .....and their practices and everything.
..... But sometimes..... there's a bit of like danger..(and).. in these more developed, ....quote unquote, ....developed countries ....coming in .....and criticizing stuff.
.... I think there's,.... there's got to be.... enlightenment on both sides..(and ... and ). and agreement on ....there being differences .....(and) and just,...(and and). and interaction
...... And I think that the main thing is..... communication .(and and )...and having these things out in the open... so that people can discuss them.
....That's a dangerous movement,..... or this might be opening another ....can of worms ....but with the political correctness ...aspect of things back home.
...... And how... people were (were) told to..... stifle their ideas.... rather than (uh)express them.
....For example, ....there was,.... a bar I used to frequent,.... it was a sort of slash gallery,... I think, ....Bow, ....you might remember this.
...(um). It was a,..... the patrons were encouraged to paint ....on the (uh) canvases, ....with paints that were left out, .....and just create whatever.... they wanted as they were drinking ....and socializing.
.... It was a really nice atmosphere..... And, ....at want point someone made a painting, ....it was sort of a collage of things.
....But there was, ...a (uh) swastika,.... that was on the painting, i...s was very prominent, ....it was a sort of a dark painting ....over all.
....And later,.... it just sort of,.... was found on the floor,.... ripped to shreds.
.... And I think that was.... really weird ....that someone would, ....would rather, ...(I).I guess that's sort of a ...reaction to Art.....
..... And sometimes art has those reactions, ...but I think it's dangerous.... when people refuse to acknowledge..... those things.... and refuse to...(to) accept them,
.....( there's) there's sort of the idea of censorship.... that's going on..... And I think ...that's really dangerous ....because,.... just by pretending some attitude ...or some practices,.... don't exist, .....does not mean that ...they will cease to exist,
.... I think,.... the basic thing is.... people have to be ....in communication ...with each other ....like with the dog issue...., the eating dogs in Korea.
.... I can't judge it, ....but I can, .....I can .....just speak with Koreans.... about my opinions on it, ....and they're, ...free to,.... and like say their opinions to me.
..... I don't think ...I'm right,.... I don't think they're right..... I think we are just people.... who have different opinions. .....And Art is sort of a stimulus .....for (um) (for bri  for) bringing those opinions out.

Daisy:

.....And also, ....you know,..... I think that.... you know, .....you look at some cultures.... quite a funny story actually.
....(uh)There was this one culture,.... in New guinea ....and you know,.... Christianity.... has been the fastest spreading thing.... I think in Western culture,
.....much more ....so probably.... than the internet. ....That, ....the, ...some missionaries .....from the United States ....went to this,.... went to New Guiana ....and they were just travelling around trying to..(uh).. convert the chris..,
.....the natives there, ....to christianity. ....And the ironic thing .....is that they went in to this one tribe, ....and the tribe ( um  tribe) ate... the missionaries. ..They were cannibals....,
......you know. ....That's funny, ....I mean, .....that's one example of Western people .....not understanding other cultures .....and going in there without any knowledge,
.....I mean, ....these people didn't know..... they were walking aroun...d in the bush, ....and they were basically,... you know,... meat.

Luke:

... Exactly, ....I would never,.... I would never criticize ...Korea,.... I've chosen to leave here for a long time, ....not because (I)...(I) I hate the place, ....and I have great criticisms about it, ...if I'm asked about it,.... I'll point out things that,
....you know.....,(I not)  I'm not that happy about. ....But I can do that.... with any where I am at,..
..... and you know, .....I definitely would not ....want to go to a country ...and say ...."Ah, you are doing it all wrong,.... blah,... blah,... blah, .....back where... I come from, .....blah, ...blah, ...blah,"
.... you know. .....And some people have that attitude,..... and I think that's probably the worst kind of attitude you can come.... Cause,.... there's so much to learn from different cultures. ....And that's what,.... that's really what it's all about, ...ultimately.

Vivian:

....But that's just it, ....of course,.... there are things ....that you don't agree ...with certain cultures with,.... same with me. ....There's lots of things... that I don't agree with,.... but... that's the fact of the matter,.... the fact of the matter is you ...(you) are in ....a situation ....and a different culture ....and a different society where you,... as long as you are there, ....you should be accepting ....to their cultures, .....there, even though, ....there are things... that you don't agree with. ......Now, when you... look at the large scale ...

Luke:

.... Well, ....I'm not accepting of my own culture,...... there's a lot of things about.... my own culture I don't like.

Vivian:

... Sure,.... that's what I'm saying,...... there's lots of things we don't agree about.
..... But when you look at the large scale..... and then you see this ...dominant country ....coming into a smaller country,..... it's like... the opposite effect ....and yet you have more ...presence there; ...so... you have more,
....you know,..... power to kind of ....pressure.... the people... (Luke: Sure) ....or the culture....(why not?)

Bow:

But having a little bit of your own culture.... in another country ....does make it ....a hell of a lot easier to live there.
..... I don't think ..I, if there wasn't.... any part of our culture... whatsoever, .(Uh)...I don't think we could ....last as long as ....we have here.

Daisy:

... Right,.... I think that's probably true. .....And actually, ....when you um, ....you go and... you live in another culture,.... I think it's also true that... you will absorb..... (uh) things of that culture as well.
..... And you do change ...and evolve,.... and that's great thing....
..... I think, ...you know,.... if, you are learning ....or you are teaching... in some,
..... you know, ...even,..(uh not).(uh). not even know... at the conscious level. ...That's wonderful.
....But, (I) ...I was wondering,... you know, ....like most of, ....we talked about traditions ....and culture ...and (uh)..a lot of those traditions..... are also ..(uh).perceived as Art... as well,.
...... especially like, ...you know,... in countries that,....(um). Luke brought out ...before, ....
...you know, ...in the middle east....(uh)... A lot of their Art.... and their practices and their rituals,...
.....if you consider that to be Art, .....are taken from ...a religious perspective as ...well,.... which is ..very interesting.

Luke:

....( Oh ha ha  )Yeah, .(yeah)....religious Art, ....and political art, ...are probably the gawdiest kinds of Art,.... I think.... But...

Daisy:

    You think?

Luke:

Yeah, ....(but I) .but I think that that's alright....(I) ... I think that, ....if you look at the old propaganda posters.... from the cold war... and stuff
....(Daisy: Sure), ......and or if you just look at the pictures of... you know, .(uh)....Christ ....and just crying and everybody crying.
......, there were so like over the top ...and just,... unnatural, .....hat they sort of,....(they) they are sort of memorable ....for that reason.

Bow:

.....But you have to remember..... that those artists.... or artisans.... who made that stuff..... were ...products of their own environment,
.... you have learned.... form that time on,... you've experienced... what you have in your life.
....That's what they... dedicated... their lives to,.... they had a certain philosophy that ...we don't know.
....... I think that some of that stuff is amazing,.... the Gothic cathedrals,.... that genera,.... that generations ....and generations of,....(um)  families fathers ....and sons would work on.(  why)
..... Just to make this..,.... they had the same concept ....and they had the same goal,
.... I mean, ....that would never happen(to) these days, ...in these days.

Daisy:

....So I guess,.... what we are probably getting on to... here is that,
..... is that Art ...is a product of your own environment.... and that time certainly religion ....was such a big deal, ...that you were...., you were creating.... a lot of religious Art,... or architecture
.....and(um)... you know...(I) then we go into the phase of,... you know, ...post modernism... where you have,..
...... you know, ..the black canvases and things like that.... (Luke: Existentialism) (and)...Yeah,... existentialism....
..... So, is it,... actually, ....that the Art... is imitating life, ...or is life imitating Art?

Luke:

...I think they mutually... inform ....and influence... each other.

Vivian:

....That's like asking, ....was the chicken or the egg,..... they... both influence each other,... of course.
...... But ....anything that you're unfamiliar..... with is sort of like.... Art to you.
..... Like .....(when) when you enter into a culture ....where you are not familiar,.... everything is unique.... and different to you (and).....and becomes a form of Art, ....like ...Luke was saying.... religion ...
.....or you know, .....not just tapestries or paintings.... but ...the actual religion ....itself is an art .....when you not familiar with it.
.... When it's everyday to you... it's nothing new,... it's no big deal.

Bow:

....The difference I see (in).... in Art and culture,.... today... is that, ....in the past, ....there was always (um)a period of time....(or) or movements....
..... and ...now,... because, ....maybe because of all that or,.... maybe because to go ...against all of that,
....there's,.... really not ....any sort of movement, ....no (no) sort of ....(Daisy: Right) ...direction,... it seems to me.

Daisy:

It's very static..., isn't it?

Bow:

.... It is very static, ....and it just seems like ...everything is(is)... gonna turn into this,... gonna turn into cha.os... it almost seems.

Daisy:

Right, right,..... I think that's true not just in(um) ...visual Art,... either, ...I think the music industry... for several,
....maybe even, ...over a decade now, ...has been ...extremely static.
.... And there's only been ....maybe one or two artists ......that have really.... been,... done inspiring things.
....But,.(um)... I think perhaps,.... maybe we feel this way,.... but ..do not ...think that at the... end of probably the classical period or,
.... you know,.... the renaissance period.... (Vivian:... There was a dead period) ...that there was,
.... you know, ....this plane of...(  leve) levelling out, .
.......perhaps, ...you know,.... this is what's happening to us, .....we're ready to move into the next...

Luke:

.... Or look (look) at Retro ...everything, .....everything that's.... supposedly new, ....all the new trends ....and fads.... that are coming out here are..... borrowing like shamelessly... from the past... (Daisy: Exactly),... past twenty years,... past thirty years,... forty years.

Vivian:

Well,.... in any sort of movement you go up ....and down and... up and down, ....and then you kind of plateau off and.... then you start all over again,... like,... Luke mentioned, ...with fashion ...anything that is... popular today,
..... not just today, ...you know,... five years ago,.... that was the trend thirty years ago
...... And what's today ....is popular today..... Twenty five years ago.

Bow:

.....But you don't start off ....from the same starting point, ....and that's where... it gets kinda mixed up.
.... It's because, .(uh)...and I think it... kind of parallels..(uh)... the evolution of technology.
.....Like information,.... just the amount of information..... that is going into ...our brains,... these days, ...then was before.
.....Where people could concentrate more,like ...Michelangelo did his masterpiece .....in the Sistine chapel...
.... and you know,... he didn't have the internet,... you know,.... where he could get like... details of ...hands ....and things like that..... He had to actually, ....go out and maybe draw... his own hand or,... you know.

Vivian:

He got dead bodies and... he actually,... dissected that himself.

Bow:

Um. That was Da vinci (Daisy: Da vinci)
（you know）

《听说大突破》的教材文本书中有大量错误，与磁带文本的语音差异加大，对于听这种带“口吃”的语音影响较大，在一个分拆的语音中多达几十处，从本册开始进行了修改。
修改的部分用（）内的文字为增加的内容，这样语音与文本就基本一致了，还有一些，基本不影响听清了。
  修改文本耽误一些练习时间，旦对于压码听懂，加深记忆也有用的，对语音文本记忆更深了，理解反映速度也会加快。
  我突然想到，大家汉语都不口吃，千万别没有学会英语，让大家学会了口吃。估计一般听懂不会影响，但是小孩们出现口吃多数都是因笑话而学别人产生的，磁带语言速度较快，只要大家不要慢速跟读，估计即使快速和长速跟读都不会有问题。

分拆语音

3. 第2册 1..Art and Culture B1的29分03秒到43分45秒语音对应的文本


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SIDE B
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Bow:

Yeah, I just think ...that people today are bombarded.... with information ....and it's just clouding their true goal,.... I mean, ....I think, ....I believe ....basically everybody,.... every human ....or anybody that's able to think,.... is an artist.....
.... In the fact that..... everybody has ideas, ...and I think .....Art was probably created,... I don't,... maybe it shouldn't ...even be called Art, ....but we have to.... label it something,.... but it just to be the idea of getting... that concept or idea... into the three-dimensional world.
... Out of your brain ....into your hands, .....where you can actually see it. ...And it's physical..... And sometimes that, what,... if you do a good job,.... and you choose the right medium, .....then maybe one person ....or many people will be inspired from that, ...get their own ideas... from it and ...then do the same thing.

Daisy:

Right, ...I agree..... And whether that.... medium be anything ....from cooking to... (Luke: ...There's a lot of overlap) ....whittling woods ....or you know,.... whatever it is, ....if you, ...just do something... (Bow: House work),... exactly.
......But I ..do agree that.... I think Art in our society,.... and our society in general, ....has become extremely superficial,.... and I think ....that's why you see, ....you know, ...what the,.. what's the guy that did the urinal?
What's his name again?.... (Bow: Duchamp) ....Yeah,.... when he did that, ....that was something new..... and it was something shocking,.... but what,... the danger ...of those type of things is that ...other artists get on that ...bandwagon and think, ...."well, let's do something just ...for the shock value." ...(Vivian: It's a trend)
..... And there is one particular ....very,.... very rich artistic,.... can't think of his name? ...Maybe you guys know,.... in ah,.... he's based in New York, ....and one of his,... famous things that sold.... for over a million dollars is a fish tank..... with three basketballs ....floating in it.
....And he also does the,.... you know, ....the clipping, ...he made a hedge out of? ...What's his name?

Bow:

Kunst.

Daisy:

Yeah,.... Kunst. .....He, ...I watched tan interview ...with him, ....and he had the three balls in.... the fish tank ...and he went up to,... him.., ...and the reporter said to him, ...."So,.... you know,... I want to,... I don't ...want you to think.... I'm ignorant or anything, .....please forgive me,.... but can you explain... to me.... what this means?"

Vivian:

"Why are you ...shooting baskets... next to .....the aquarium and hey,.... you missed the basket ....and it fell in" ...(Bow: No) ...He' said.

Bow:

He's, ...he's very ...articulate.

Daisy:

Right,.... right, ...he's,... he's,... obviously,.... an extremely intelligent man, ....and he went on this ....whole existentialist.... tangent about ..."Well, ...it's, ...you know, ....it's human existence floating... in the body of... particles,... of space... and time,.."
..... but he said it ....obviously... a lot more eloquently ...than I just did.
.... And afterwards ....he got him to explain ...each piece of Art. ....And... when you ...listen to this man speak, ....you gotta sit there and go.... "Wow, ...he's smart,... and he's eloquent, ....and he's intelligent."
....And the reporter's last comment .....at the end of the piece was.... "Well, ....the one thing... that I discover today,... is that anyone ....can be... a successful artist,.... in the 90"s, ...if he has ...a good vocabulary." ....And that's... exactly what,... you know, ...the point was.

Luke:

Maybe, ....maybe.... what Art's function... is these days,.... is maybe... just to infuse a certain degree,.... of,.. like,.... if it's too quirky..... If the actual Art itself ..is too quirky, ...actually you were saying about ....the overlapping of things.
.... It's sort of.... how it comes into food. ...If you have ...a nicely prepared meal, ...a dish in front of you, ...and it's ...artistic.... in it's own way ..I there's color,... there's form...., there's shape there's a sculptural quality... to a lot of food.
.... That's gonna be ...a lot more enjoyable to eat. ....Same with like architecture, ...or landscaping... and stuff. People,.... if people are.... aware of Art ....and informed about Art, ....and the principles that... sort of define Art.
..... Maybe they bring that, .....they can incorporate.... that into culture. ....If everybody's thinking in.. those sorts of ways... and functional,
.....functional furniture ....and whatever, ...everything else... that just sort of has a little bit of.... a kinda arty,.... kinda cool vibe about it.
..... It's just sort of makes for a more, ....a more nice over all,.... aesthetic -- nice over all day to day life.

Vivian:

....Why does Art,.... the definition of ....Art has changed a long time.... When you look at the past... Artists, ...you know ....Leonardo Da vinci ...or any of those people, ...Picasso.
....They weren't looking for.... fame when they drew those,.... those were, ...you know, ....came from within ....and they were trying to ...express themselves. ...Nowadays, ...people express themselves,..
.. why? --... to become famous.... (Luke: Exactly) ...Because, ...they want to,... you know,... find or discover something new ...that no one else has done, ....which is kind of what... we've been discussing so far as.
....History has been repeating itself,.... and there's nothing new ...and original anymore. ...But that's just it, ....it doesn't have to be original it .....could be anything that .....you feel ...or want to express on paper ...or through anything.
.....And then..... anyone else can look at that and.... feel something to and that ....should be what Art is, not something that, ....you know, ...everybody tried,... this kind of pants, ....and those kind of pants,... well why don't we try pants like these, ....because no one else has.

Bow:

But I think... you hit on a point, ....It's everybody should feel. ....And I think that even if,.... like people generally think of art as,... in the positive way,.... feeling good about it,.... or being inspired,... but a feeling can also be negative. ...(Vivian: Right, right)
........It's the same as like, ...as Kunst put it, ....you got a negative impression... from this guy, ...you know,... and that,... if you were a sculptor, ....maybe that... would inspire you not to do.... what he's doing and actually,.... make this masterpiece, ...that a million people ...would be inspired by. ...So I think it's all relative.

Daisy:

I think that's a valued point. ....And I do think that,.. you know, ...whatever, ...whatever debate, ...you're having, ...over the history of time, ...extremists... have been everywhere.
.... Whether they be radical feminists ....or whether they have, ...you know,... this will certainly offend some people, ...the Nazis.
...You know, ....I mean, ...basically,... they were all extremists, ...and we have learnt things ...from them.... Whether it be, ...not to do that,... or to do that,.... I think extremism definitely ...serves its point in society and... it is a necessary thing, ...for growth?

Luke:

But they shouldn't,... they shouldn't be censored. ...They should, ...I think censoring, ...censoring them is wrong. ...Because... they just go underground. ...I think it's alright to... have them up there ...and just say, ....well that sucks for these reasons.... I think we have to understand that.

Vivian:

Well let's take the recent,... recent example, ...Eminem,.... not the candy that ...melts in your hands,... but the Artist, ...ok? ...Lots of people ...don't like his stuff,.... lots of parents disagree... and want to ban him, ...and don't want... their children listening to it.... But that is a form of Art, too. ..Right?

Bow:

I believe, ...it's sound, ...he doesn't sound like.. an intellectual,... but I believe in his,... his idea,... that is. ...He's like,... in his lyrics,... even though they rhyme,... he is talking like people talk, ...at least,... that's what I heard ...when I was going to school.

Vivian:

But that's rap,... you know,.. that, we...

Bow:

You are agreeing.

Vivian:

Yeah,... I agree. ...That's rap, ...I mean, ....just because it ...may not be the type of music t...hat you listen to,... but, ...and they say,... "Oh, ..it's loud,... there're just rhyming",.... but it's not necessarily true, ...a lot of it. ...really does have al lot to say.

Bow:

And this is the contradiction, too..... Most kids learn ....swear words... from their parents, ...they hear it from their dad. ....At least in my neighborhood, ...everyone, ...dad's swear, ...you know, ...to say like oh, ...no this guy... is swearing... and he's saying fag and stuff,... you heard that ...from your dad like ten years before.

Vivian:

He learned it ...from his dad (Daisy: But I think...)

Bow:

Exactly.

Daisy:

But musically,... rap, ...I think was a natural evolution, ...not just lyrically,.. but,... especially rhythmically. ..It came from obviously black people... And pretty much, a...ll of our modern music..., they have created from, ...you know..., Jazz to Blues,... and the,... and then it went.. to Soul to Funk.... And rhythmically,... it was the natural evolution of their music.
.... So, ...it certainly plays... an important role... in our music development. ...I don't think it ...should be laughed at,... there's bad rap... and there's good rap,... of course.... But, you know,... it's an important part of our musical develop-ment.

Vivian:

Sure, ..I mean it could be... criticized the opposite way around, ...and I mean..., if all the teens in the world that.. liked rap got together and said... "Mom and Dad,... we don't like that old country music you're listening to" ...you know.

Daisy:

Which they probably do.

Vivian:

Well the honky-tonk stuff, I mean.

Luke:

And and the thing,... it's like,... it's not the issue that rap music is offensive,... or the rhythms are offensive,... it's the things that they're saying, ..within them, ...in the, violence against women,... and violence against gays and stuff.... But I mean,... it wouldn't be popular ...if there wasn't, ...if there weren't people... who were sort of going for that.... I like yeah, ..."that speaks to me," ....you know.

Luke: T

hat speaks to me,... you know,... to a degree.

Vivian:

And that is...

Bow:

And it may not be... necessarily the thing.... Yeah, but I mean that's,.. that's kinda, ...that's the thing it taps into a certain vein ...and becomes popular.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian:

But, that's, ...that's like you speaking for themselves,.. well I mean,.. that is the movement among, ...no longer the X generation,.. but is it the E-generation, ..or whatever. ...I mean..., but the youth of not just America, ..but any. ..country, ...most of them want,.. you know, ..they've got funky hair..., and funky clothes ...and they're listening.. to this music that's totally against abortion..., and this ...and that or pro ...or whatever.

Vivian:

But, ....hey, ...(Daisy: They want something that's out there.).. think back twenty,... thirty,.. forty,.. fifty years ago..., there's was flower power, ...they were against this and that.... (Daisy: The Beatles?... Beatles) Yeah, sure.... (Daisy: ...The Beatles was banned.. in some states in America)... The youth of any time period,.. (Daisy: Sure) ...(Luke: It's a generation gap, yeah)... through Art and music to express themselves... (Luke: Those things change fast)... (Bow: In a America?)

Daisy:

But they were, ...they were.

Bow:

Not in Australia, ...though?

Daisy:

No.

Bow:

So Australia loves the Beatles,... but America hates them.

Daisy:

But, ...actually... I was gonna talk about... what Luke was just saying. ...That, ...there are people out there,... t.hat are actually liking this stuff that Emimen ...or other rap artists are talking about.

Vivian:

Sure, even adults.

Daisy:

Even if it means,... you know,... killing women,... or you know, ...raping your mother, ...or whatever he talks about. But maybe, ...I was,... it's just an idea..., what you were saying before about... political correctness..., maybe there are... other people out there like yourself, ...that are really sick of this.., "I've gotta watch my "Ps and 's, ...and I'm not allowed to call this person this, ...I'm not allowed to burn the flag,... I'm not allowed to do this, ...I'm not allowed to do that, ...maybe they're sick of that, ..and they want to get out there ...and have this shocking stuffs and.. (Luke: It's a reflex).., yeah...

Vivian:

And, ..and I wanted to make my point..., I mean, ..for those people... who are always arguing, ..why don't they go and, ...if there are ....so many people ...out there like that,... they can go ...and educate their children to not do ...stuff like that and to..., you know..., follow conservative ...or whatever views that you have. ...I mean they don't go out,... all they do is sit there and complain about..., you know..., oh they're rapping here... and they're talking about this.. and that. Well, ...they're not educating their own children, ...that's a whole different topic,.. isn't it?

Luke:

As long as it gets a discussion going...

Bow:

The interesting thing that I've noticed,... is that, ...we are talking about Emimem ...and lyrics and rap and stuff, ...and that's why... in the states they... became popular..., was because they're hearing, .."Oh my God, ...he just said fag or something,".. so like that. ...But, Emimem is popular here,... and most people don't even know.. what he's saying... Why is that, ..do you think?

Vivian:

It sounds good to them, maybe.

Bow:

Is that what it is? Is it the music? The rhythm?

Daisy:

Well, well, ...I have to say ...that I think there's a lot better rap ..out there rhythmically ...than Emimen,
I think ...it's pretty straight forward. ..His rap,... it's not exactly technical ...or complex
.... But I have to say that ...he is popular ...so he's obviously been marketed... in this country,... and it's come to this country.... And,... when you have,... what do they have to compare to.., Korean rap? ..you know, ...it's gotta be bette..r than that sorry to say.

Vivian

: If you wanna scrutinize it that... precisely in detail..., hey,.. it's all PR, ..and marketing, ..ok?... That's the reason why he's up there.... (Daisy: They've got money,.. probably) ..There's lots of other rappers ...who sit there and talk about dope ...and killing their Mamas ..and Papas...

Daisy:

You look at ...what's that band out now, ..that is, ...all the controversy is around... Is it DJ. Doc? ..They've got, ...their cd is all about... police brutality a..nd their down on the police ..and everything.

Vivian:

They're saying.

Daisy:

That was popular twenty years ago.. in the States, ...and Western countries, ..and that's now coming in now.... Perhaps that's.. a reflection of the movement of this culture..., that they are... becoming more open-minded... and they're going through what we, ..probably.., went through twenty years ago.

Bow:

Or just a different thing, ...like I heard in Japan,.. a lot of popular music is about MSG. ...They don't want monosodium glutamate.. in their food,... so that's kind of a big issue.

Vivian:

More they could still borrowing... from another culture,... and not coming up ...with their own lyrics, ..or ideas?

Daisy:

Well,... I think it's probably..., more along the line that this culture is now, ...actually, ...their experience... and an element of freedom of speech.... And I think that they are..., it's, it must be exciting to them, ...all of sudden these kids,... even if they are not great musicians,... they have an opportunity to say. "...I think this sucks.... that police are this way,... and I think this is terrible.... And that..., that's a gmat, thing to happen I think...
. Because ...they have definitely been oppressed.... for a long time... by their own people, ...not by other people, ...but by their own government.

Vivian:

But it's still being censored,... I mean,... the Korean government still censors... a lot of music and... (Daisy:... Sure)... I mean,.. even, ...like you said, ..DJ Doc,... or is it Mr. ...Seo Tae.li, ..
you know, ..a lot of their lyrics, ..even whole songs... are completely censored, ...because... there're foul language ...or the material...

Daisy:

Right, ...they might have like beeps ...and things in there ...but it's still better than... twenty years ago.... I know ...one Korean artist ...who brought his album out, ...and there was no profanity.. in it whatsoever. ...
....And it was just... because ...his lyrics were about,.. I guess,.. socialist ideas, ..and humanity... (Bow: Who was that?)... Bob Dylan... like type lyrics.... And his album was on sale... for one hour... before the government confiscated... every copy of it ...and wouldn't let it be sold in the county.
....And I think we've come a long way... in twenty years, ...and this is a good thing... And if culture and... ..I think that's what creates Art,.. is if people have this ability.. to express themselves.

Luke:

But the danger in that,... is what,... sort of what starts happening,.. you see it a lot in the Western cultures, ...where they have marketing... down to such an Art...
..... is that controversy sells.... And people would say ...anything just to.. ...become famous,... just to make money.
.... So it's not about ...people's better interests ...and it's not about ...what you really feel anymore..., what, ..what really, ...what you're trying to... reflect out of society. ...It's just like... being such a.....so out there, and so weird ...and trying shock so many people,... that they talk about you ..and they hate you,... so a large part of Emimen's appeal was.., you know ..(Daisy: People hate you), ...people hated him ..and some people really liked him.

Vivian:
]
That's the reason ...why we gave him his fame.

Luke:

Sure, Yeah,... And the more controversial stuff... and Madonna made a... whole career out of it, ...like she's offended everybody... all the way through,... but always just like.. a little bit, like...

Vivian:

Too cool to really, ..really hate for real.

Luke:

She never went too far out there, ...but, I mean, ...that's,... that's the thing.

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4. 第2册1. Art and Culture B2的43分45秒到57分13秒结束语音对应的文本



Vivian:

And that's the reason ...why governments restrict Art,...including music and TV... and what not so much,...is because they're afraid,... you know, ...take eastern cultures,... for example, ...in comparison with Western cultures.
They're afraid .....that their society is going to change too much, ....you know,... similarly too,... Western cultures.... And then ...there's gonna be violence in schools ....and then there's,... it's gonna be disrupting their homes ....and the nice culture that they have.

Daisy:

I don't know, .....you know,... you look at like.... some of the animated books.... and cartoons in 3apan. ....I think they're way more offensive, ...than some of the rap ....that comes out of the United States.
....But I think that ...at this age, ....don't every single one of us think.... that we can look at some type of Art ....or music ....or entertainer and say, ....ok,... this is the real deal,... or this is crap,... this is..., you know, ...this is just somebody go in it ....for the shock value.
..... I think.... if you're at this age you have the ability to do that, ...(Vivian: Sure) ...the danger, ...of course, ....and I think ....what govern-ments are trying to ....protect is children.
....But,.... I think that should be,... you know, ...the parents' responsibility, ...and not the government's responsibility.

Vivian:

....Well..., that was my whole point, too.... Government restrict, ....in that for the sake of children ...and teens and what's...

Luke:

But that's where the families.... have to be more responsible. ....It is true that celebrities really are the role models ....for kids these days, ....that wasn't the case in the past..... And celebrity itself was never like ...a great thing,....
..... I mean ...now, you know, ...someone's really beautiful, ....and they're on a catalog... or something supermodels,.... I like,.... they may not have anything interesting to say... but people want to hear what they have to say.... It's kinda bizarre,... you know.

Vivian:

It was kinda like.... the Wheel of Fortune Vanna White deal,... you know,... she was on there for like ten years,.... and everyone's like ...."hot babe, ...hot babe",.... they used to bet on... what color dress she'd wear,.... every day of the week.... (Daisy: Really?)
....Yeah. ...But then, ...all of a sudden one day,... what was it,.... the early nineties? ...All of a sudden they said.... "We wanna hear Vanna talk"... and so she started to say... "Hi",.... and then the next line ....after a couple of months was.... "Hi everyone".... and then now ....she actually has two lines ...to say on each show.

Luke:

And it used to be like, ...it used to be like,... the thinkers,... the writers, ..and politicians, ...philosophers that would sort of ...form public opinion, ....who would be the people... who sort of defined ...what a culture was about and now,.... it says a lot.
.... In that the media, ....and the stars of the media are the ones sort of, ...are considered to be the artists.... and visionaries.... and the ones that kids wanna emulate, ...wanna be like,... and there the ones ...who have such sway.

Vivian:

But I agree they have a lot of force ...but I still agree ....parents all the way... control everything. ...If they uh, ...got a real good grip on their children... from an early start,... if all the parents did,.. you know, ...the masses all together,... you know,... got together and said,... "Hey, we're really watching our kids, ...we're giving them good foundations.. and morals and..."

Bow:

You have to be told not to fully trust the media.

Daisy:

Well, Bow, ,,,,you know I know you have a child, ,,,,and I was wondering how do, ,,,how do you feel about, ,,,like probably,,,,, pornographic comic books ,,,,or that type of influence with your child?

Bow:

I personally like them,,,,, I wouldn't like, ,,,,I wouldn't like her to see them,,, that early on, ,,,but the thing that's kind of interesting is like,,,,,
,,,,, the fact that they say it,,,, takes a village to raise a child. It's true,,,, because,,,, if you think about like, ,,,for example,,,,, these days children in the world,,,, in most developed countries, ,,,they play video games, ,,,that's a fun thing for them. ,,,But in Japan, ,,,the more popular games,,, are very, very violent. ,
,,,,But, the real violence takes place ,,,in American schools,,,, who aren't allow to play those games, ,,you know,,,. So, why is it? ,,,Is it because they see TV,,,, because they're oppressed, ,,,why doesn't ,,,,that much violence happen in Japan?

Daisy:

Maybe we don't know about,,,,,, well, ,,,they don't have guns, right?

Bow:

Is that why?,,,, Is it because of guns? ,,,,You think that there wouldn't be,,, as much violence in America without the guns?,, I mean, yeah.

Daisy:

I think that, well,,,,, people wouldn't die as often,,,, I guess.

Vivian:

,,,,But isn't,,,,, it always the fact ,,,,with the things you don't know,,,, the inhibitions that you have, ,,,anyway, ,,,anything that you want to,,,, it's not open for you, to,,,, like if your parents say, ,,,"Don't touch? you wanna touch.

Daisy:

Uh. Interesting point.,,,, Then could Art be defined ,,,,as an expression of something,,, that has been suppressed. ,,,,,Perhaps that the,,,,, the sexual ,,,,comic books ,,,,and that type of behavior in Japan, ,,,that,,,,, is so common,,,,, is sexual,,,,, because of sexual repression ,,,in their culture?

Vivian:

Maybe.

Luke:

Yeah, ,,,,it's a probably pretty hard one,, to sift through, ,,,well, I mean.

Bow:

It depends on the content, too. ,,,I mean if you think about like, ,,,in America they say,,, you know,,,, "Don't look at Playboys,, when you're young.",,,, or something,,,, but yeah, ,,,we want to,,,, cause we,,,,, we like naked chicks,,,, you know.,,, But it's not like bondage ,,,or tying up woman,,, or repressing them ,,,or anything, ,,it's just like...

Vivian:

Like what?,, A woman with big boobs?

Bow:

Yeah, exactly.

Luke:

What's the difference between pornography,,,, and erotica,,,, though. ,,,,They say,,,, that pornography is racy ,,,and offensive ,,,,and very base in crass.

Daisy:

It degrades women.

Luke:

But erotica is artistic. ,,,,(Bow: Who are they?),,, People,,,, in general,,,, they define,,,, you know pornography is pornography ,,,and erotica is erotica, ,,,,and erotica has this higher standing,,,. And it (Daisy: Artistic.),,,, has more of an artistic element to it.

Daisy:

Well,,,,, I don't know,,,,, but you know,,,, exactly, ,,,,what you just said,,, that Brandon there,,,, I think like that, ,,,goes back to the point I made before that, ,,,(Bow: I'm Bow) ,,,you know, America.,,.. Exactly, what you just said that,,,, Bow,,,,, it goes back to the point I was talking about before,,,, that in America, you know,,,, women,,,, you were saying that,,,,, it just seems natural looking ,,,at woman,,, with big boobs,,,, but maybe that's because,,, American society,,, is not sexually repressed.

Bow:

I think that,,,,, they think that,,,, pornography is,,,, when women are being ,,,,debased in,,,, film or (Daisy: ,,,,,Yeah,,,, like putting dog collars on them), ,,,,exactly, ,,,,when they're making woman to look bad, ,,,,whereas erotica is more a mutual consensual thing ,,,between men and woman.

Daisy:

Yeah,,,, I think that's acceptable pornography or erotica,,,, if you like,,,,, as long as both parties are involved,,,, in some mutually acceptable act.,,, That's okay.

Luke:

What about ,,,the Robert Mapplethorpe?,,,, Pornography or Art?,,,, Robert Napplethorpe was,,,, a homosexual photographer ,,,,who took pictures of black men's penises,,,,, but he also took pictures of flowers.
,,,, And he had an exhibition, ,,,,in Boston, ,,,,,of the black men's penises,,,, and there was protests that ",,,,This is the pornography".

Vivian:

O.K. Then he was just a queer,,,, with like two personalities, ,,ok?,,,, How about this?,,, In a newspaper like six months ago,,,,, it was the Herald or ,,,,something like that,,,,, there was a picture,,,, in the culture/Art section,,,,, it was about some movie set,,,, where they had like five hundred nude people lying,,,, in the streets.,,, Well, I was, ,,,,I just happen to be reading the opposite page when my friend's daughter comes running up ,,,,and my friend,,, and I were reading this one article on the opposite side, ,,,,but she comes and says,,, "There,,, you know,,,,, there's butt-naked people all over the picture on the newspaper"
,,,,,I mean, ,,,and then my friend was very,,,, you know, ,,,kind of revolted,,,, and she was like ,,,"How could they put like,,,, you know, ,,,bare naked people,,, on the newspaper".

Daisy:

Well, there's bare naked people,,,, when having sex,,, I don't think that there is ,,,,anything wrong,,, with the nude body.
,,,,If, if your,,,, if your,,, I think saying to a child, ,,,because that person is naked,,,, it's a bad thing,,,. Probably, ,,,it's gonna give the kid problems later in life.

Luke:

,,,,What about ,,,,why is alright to show ,,,,a person naked ,,,,if they've been killed ,,,or beaten and dragged through the streets of some city?

Bow:

Or why is it ok?

Luke:

To celebrate it.

Bow:

Yes, ,,,,on National Geographic ,,,,where you can see African woman's breast.,,, Why is that different?

Vivian:

Yeah, why is that considered Art.

Daisy:

As long as, ,,,,if nudity is represented,,, as something that's debased like a woman ,,,with a dog collar being whipped ,,,,with a cat of nine tails,,,
,,,,. Then of course, ,,,there's something wrong with that. ,,,But the human body in itself,,,, if it's naked ,,,and there's a picture of it being naked.,,,, I don't see that there's anything offensive about that,,,, if there's something offensive about ,,,,that then there's something wrong,,, with my naked body.

Luke:

What if it's a man with..,, being whipped,,, by a cat's nine tails?

Bow:

Exactly,,,, Robert Mapplethorpe, ,,same thing,,,, same guy. ,,,That's what he had,,,. He had homosexuals, ,,,in weird positions,,,,, one guy was pissing ,,in another guy's mouth,,,, but then again he was a great photographer.,,, He did,,,, he made great black and white pictures.

Daisy:

,,,Fair enough, ,,,,,but both of those guys were kind of into it.,,,, I think the point that I'm getting is that a lot of pornography, ,,,,,if they have a woman in a dog color,,,, with the cat of nine tails,,,. It's suggesting something about ,,,,a women's subservience,,,,, and submissiveness to a male,,,,. And that's wrong.,,,, If you are perpetuating,,,, that ideal of a woman,,,, then to women,,,, in general,,,, that is degrading. ,,
,,,,But, you know,,,,, if, if, that was ,,,,from a homosexual prospective acceptable,,,, who am I to say, ,,,I'm nora male homosexual,,,, so I don't know.... what is acceptable or not.... But I am a woman, ..so I can,.... I can offer my opinion ...from that point of view.

Bow:

What about lesbians?

Daisy:

Lesbians?.... Well, they can do ...whatever they want to. ..I'm not a lesbian.

Bow:

What do you think about them?

Daisy:

What do I think of them?

Bow:

Yeah.

Daisy:

I think that's fine.

Bow:

Really?

Vivian:

She thinks it's great. .....But what if I was talking ....from a very conservative mother's view point..., you know, ....there's lots of mothers ...who are against.., for example, ...prayer in schools or,... you know, certain, ....when you go to Art class, ...you see these pictures... and paintings of nudes... and whatever. ...I mean..., they're totally against it.... I mean.... (Daisy: But those pictures aren't...) ....They're saying ....how can you argue that this is Art? ....I don't want... my children exposed to this sort of thing at this early age or...

Daisy

: But I don't think ....their children would be exposed to... homosexual pictures.... They might be exposed to, ...what about David?... I mean..., look at David ...that's a sculpture... from hundreds... and hundreds of years ago and that,.... you know.., that....., he's nude, ...his genitals are showing..... You can't censor that,... you can't censor ...the entire Renaissance period.

Luke:

That, ....that sculpture always made me feel really good. ...Actually.

Vivian:

Did you guys ever, what is that, ...I don't know... what it is called, ....but there is this hall where they've made like ....Ten Davids all around this hall... and they've chopped off his.... (Daisy: His penis?) Yeah.

Bow:

The hall of Justice?

Vivian,

Daisy: Ha Ha...

Bow:

How about the difference between the, ....sculpture say like,.... David, where that,.... was accepted at that time ...and now it's pornography... But, I think, ...in his exhibition..., people chose... and pay money to go inside, ...if you if you believe ...that is pornography,... and it's offensive,.. don't go in, ...don't pay.

Daisy:

Exactly.

Vivian: Right.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian

: But then what about... when the artist publicized,... it's not something... that you choose... or do not choose ...to go in and see..., but... (Daisy: ..But I think, ...it'll be pretty different......) you are forced to almost absorb it. ...You're forced to... look at it in the middle of City Hall?

Luke:

You have, ....just as other artists have the right to display their stuff ...and advertise it ...and try to give make them, ...a living for themselves.... People have the right to say to disagree... with it and I think that's the thing,... that's the thing too,.... about art. Sometimes it'll shoc...k and sometimes it'll annoy, sometimes it'll inspire...., sometimes it'll offend. ...And that's the thing.., that's its purpose,... that's what it is supposed to do.... And people can't,... it can't be stifled to suppressed,... it just has to make people like,... take an active part,.... and it's great if it has that effect on people.... Because a lot of things ...are really just watered down these days.... And Art is one of these pure..., like these good things. ....If it is done properly ....and it serves the purpose it's supposed to serve.... It will get people riled up about something.... That's important.

Daisy:

And you know, ....even the way... that women have been... perceived through Art,... you know,... like the Botticelli Beauties,... I mean, ...they were quite curvy,... if you know ...what I mean,... they were big women.

Bow:

Voluptuous.

Daisy:

And even in some of the paintings,.... their breasts were deformed.... (Vivian: Sure)... deformed... and that was like, ...their breasts had big lumps in them ....and knowing ...what we know today,... and we look back at that,.... those women were.... in like developed stages of breast cancer.

Bow

: Salvador Dali had like ants ....and things on women's.. genitals you know,... just like...

Daisy:

Right, ..right, ...but, ...he was, ...he was definitely disturbed, ...yeah,... I love his Art... but there was still definitely something,... he,... actually Salvador Dali. ...He had several paintings... where women wear severed like their parts of their body were in different, i...n different areas.... And there's actually..., a killer on the loose in Europe ....that's doing the exact things... out of Salvador Dali's paintings at the moment..... So has that inspired him?... I guess.... the guy was just crazy anyway ...and a fan of Salvador Dali's. ...But still it was interesting.

Vivian:

Well you know,.... I thought it kind of ironical...., how everything comes back to,... well it can't be resolved anyway.... Why..., because people.... have opinions... Art and culture.... This is everyone expressing themselves..... So it can never really be resolved.... Is it wrong,... is it right.., is it beautiful..., is it not.... Like..., Luke was making that point earlier..... So it's kind of like a matte..r of freedom of speech, ...and that can't be... resolved.

Bow:

Beauty is in ...the eye of the beholder.

Daisy:

Yes, I was just about to say... the same thing.... And I think that you're right,.. it can't be resolved,.. but I think... that's the purpose of Art, ...to, you know.., inspire debate, ...to inspire thought..., to inspire.

Vivian:

And there's always... going to be critics... who don't agree.

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3. 第2册 1..Art and Culture B1的29分03秒到43分45秒语音对应的文本


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SIDE B
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Bow:

Yeah, I just think ...that people today are bombarded.... with information ....and it's just clouding .....their(um) true goal,.... I mean, ....I think, ....I believe ....basically everybody,.... every human ....or anybody that's able to think,.... is an artist.....
.... (uh) ....In the fact that..... everybody has ideas, ...and I think .....Art was probably... created,... I don't,... maybe it shouldn't ...even be called Art, ....but we have to...(why). label it something,...( yeah ). but it just to be the idea of getting... that concept or idea... into the three-dimensional world.
... Out of your brain ....into your hands, .....where you can actually see it. ...And it's physical..(mm)... And sometimes that, what,... if you... do a good job,.... and you choose the right medium, .....then... maybe one person ....or many people will be inspired from that, ...get their own ideas... from it and ...then do the same thing.

Daisy:

Right, .(I ,um)....I agree..... And whether that.... medium be anything ....from cooking to... (Luke: ...There's a lot of overlap) ....whittling woods ....or you know,.... whatever it is, ....if you, ...just do something... (Bow: House work),... exactly.
......But I (um) ..do agree that.... I think Art in... our society,.... and our society in general, ....has become extremely superficial,.... and I think ....that's why you see, ....you know, ...what the,.. what's the guy that... did the urinal?
What's his name again?.... (Bow: Duchamp) ....Yeah,...(when). when he did that, ....that was something new..... and it was something shocking,.... but what,... the danger ...of those type of things is that ...other artists get on that ...bandwagon and think, .(why)..."well, let's do something just ...for the shock value." ...(Vivian: It's a trend)
..... And(uh) there is one particular ....very,.... very rich artistic,.... can't think of his name? ...Maybe you guys know,.... in ah,.(he's )... he's (uh)based in New York, ....and one of his,.(ah).. famous things that sold.... for over a million dollars is a fish tank..... with three basketballs ....floating in it.
....And he also does the,.... you know, ....the clipping, ...he made a hedge out of? ...What's his name?

Bow:

(that )Kunst.

Daisy:

Yeah,.... Kunst. .(um)....He, ...I watched tan interview ...with him, ....and he had the three balls in.... the fish tank ...and he went up to,... him.., ...and the reporter said to him, ...."So,.... you know,... I want to,... I don't ...want you to think.... I'm ignorant or anything, .....please forgive me,.... but... can you explain... to me.... what this means?"

Vivian:

(  )"Why are you ...shooting baskets... next to .....the aquarium and hey,.... you missed the basket ....and it fell in" ...(Bow: No) ...He' said.

Bow:

He's, ...he's very ...articulate.

Daisy:

Right,.... right, ...he's,... he's,... obviously,.... an extremely... intelligent man, ....and he went(uh) on this whole ...existentialist.... tangent about ..."Well, ...it's, ...you know, ....it's human existence floating... in the body of... particles,... of space... and time,.."
..... but he said it ....obviously... a lot more eloquently ...than I just did.
.... And(um) afterwards ....he got him to explain ...each piece of Art. ....And... when you ...listen to this man speak, ....you gotta sit there and go.... "Wow, ...he's smart,...(mm) and he's eloquent, (mm)....and he's intelligent."
....And the reporter's last comment .....at the end of the piece was.... "Well, ....the one thing... that I discover today,... is that anyone ....can be... a successful artist,.... in the 90"s, ...if he has ...a good vocabulary." ....And that's... (ha )exactly what,..(why). you know, ...the point was.(mm)

Luke:

Maybe, ....maybe.... what Art's function... is these days,.... is maybe... just to infuse a certain degree,.... of,.. like,(if).... if it's too quirky..... If the actual Art itself ..is too quirky, ...actually you were saying about ....the overlapping of things.
....(uh) It's sort of.... how it comes into food. ...If you have (uh)...a nicely prepared meal, ...a dish in front of you, ...and it's ...artistic.... in it's own way ..I there's color,... there's form...., there's shape there's... a sculptural quality... to a lot of food.(ha ha)
.... That's gonna be ...a lot more enjoyable to eat. ....Same with(uh) like architecture, ...or landscaping... and stuff. People,....(if) if people are.... aware of Art ....and informed about Art, ....and the principles that... sort of... define Art.
..... Maybe they bring that, .(they can)....they can incorporate.... that into culture. ....If everybody's thinking in.. those sorts of ways..(and). and functional, ...functional furniture ....and whatever, ...everything else... that just sort of has a little bit of.... a kinda arty,.... kinda cool vibe about it.
..... It's just sort of makes for a more, ....a more nice over all,.... aesthetic (shy)-- nice over all day to day life.(    all day to day life )

Vivian:

....Why does Art,.(were)... the definition of ....Art has changed a long time.... When you look at the past... Artists, ...you know ....Leonardo Da vinci ...or any of those people, ...Picasso.
....They weren't looking for.... fame ...when they drew those,.... those were, ...you know, ....came from within ....and they were trying to ...express themselves. ...Nowadays, ...people express themselves,..
.. why? --... to become famous.... (Luke: Exactly) ...Because, ...they want to,... you know,... find or discover something new ...that no one else has done, ....which is kind of what... we've been discussing so far as.
....History has been repeating itself,.... and there's nothing new ...and original anymore. ...But that's just it, ....it doesn't have to be original it .....could be anything that .....you feel ...or want to express on paper ...or through anything. ( oh)
.....And then..... anyone else can look at that and.... feel something to and that ....should be what Art is, not something that, .(oh  the )...you know, ...everybody tried,..(um). this kind of pants, ....and those kind of pants,... well why don't we try pants like these, ....because no one else has.

Bow:

But I think... you hit on (da )a point, ....It's everybody should feel. ...(mm).And I think that even if,.... like people generally think of art as,... in the positive way,.... feeling good about it,.... or being inspired,... but a feeling can also be negative. ...(Vivian: Right, right)
........It's the same as like, ...as Kunst put it, ....you got a negative impression... from this guy, .(and)..you know,(uh)... and that,... if you were a sculptor, ....maybe that... would inspire you not to do..(mm).. what he's doing and actually,.... make this masterpiece, ...that a million people ...would be inspired by. ...So I think it's all relative.

Daisy:

(yeah) I think that's a valued point. ....And I do think that,.. (um) you know, (hi)...whatever, ...whatever debate, ...you're having, ..(uh )over the history of time, ...extremists..(mm). have been everywhere.
.... Whether they be radical feminists or ....whether they have, ...you know,... this will certainly offend some people, ...the Nazis.
...You know, ....I mean, ...basically,... they were all extremists, ...and we have... learnt things ...from them.... Whether it be, ...not to do that,... or to do that,.... I think extremism definitely ..(mm).serves its point in society and... it is a necessary thing, ...for growth?

Luke:

(but they some) But they shouldn't,... they shouldn't be censored. ...They should, ...I think censoring, ...censoring them is wrong. ...Because... they just go underground. ...I think it's(it's) alright to... have them up there ...and just say, ....well that sucks for these reasons....(    yes) I think we have to understand that.

Vivian:

Well let's take the recent,... recent example, ...Eminem,.... not the candy that ...melts in your hands,... but the Artist, ...ok? ...Lots of people ...don't like his stuff,.(haha)... lots of parents disagree... and want to ban him, ...and don't want... their children listening to it.... But that is a form of Art, too. ..Right?

Bow:

I believe, .(i'ts sound)...it's sound, ...he doesn't sound like.. an intellectual,... but I believe in his,...(he's uh) .. his idea,... that is. ...He's like,... in his lyrics,... even though they rhyme,... he is talking like people talk, ...at least,... that's what I heard ...when I was going to school.

Vivian:

But that's rap,... you know,..(sure) that, we...

Bow:

You are agreeing.

Vivian:

Yeah,... I agree. ...That's rap, ...I mean, ....just because it ...may not be the type of music ...that you listen to,... but, ...and they say,... "Oh, ..it's loud,... there're just rhyming",.... but it's not necessarily true, ...a lot of it. ...really does have al lot to say.

Bow:

And this is the contradiction, too..... Most kids learn ....swear words... from their parents, (mm)...they hear it from their dad. ....At least in my neighborhood, .(mm)..everyone, ...dad's swear, ...you know, .(and)..to say like... oh, no this guy... is swearing... and he's saying fag and stuff,..(mm). you heard that ...from your dad like ten years before.(sure)

Vivian:

He learned it ...from his dad (Daisy: But I think...)

Bow:

Exactly.

Daisy:

But musically,... rap, ...I think was a natural evolution, ...not just lyrically,.. but,... especially rhythmically. ..It came from ..obviously black people..(mm). And pretty much, ...all of our modern music..., they have created from, ...you know..., Jazz to Blues,... and the,... and then it went.. to Soul ...to Funk.... And rhythmically,... it was the natural evolution of their music.
.... So, ...it certainly plays... an important role... in our music development. ...I don't think it ...should be.... laughed at,... there's(or) bad rap... and there's good rap,... of course.... But, you know,...(it's) it's an important part of our musical develop-ment.

Vivian:

Sure, ..I mean it could be... criticized the(I  mean)(it's ) opposite way around, ...and I mean..., if all the teens in the world that.. liked rap got together and said... "Mom and Dad,... we don't like that... old country music you're listening to" ...you know.(I..)

Daisy:

Which they probably do.

Vivian:

Well the honky-tonk stuff, I mean.

Luke:

And and the thing,... it's like,... it's not the issue that rap music is offensive,... or the rhythms are offensive,... it's the things that they're saying, ..within them, (mm)...in the, violence against women,(mm)... and violence against gays and stuff.... But I mean,... it wouldn't be popular ...if there wasn't, ...if there weren't people... who were sort of going for that.... I like yeah, ..."that speaks to me," ....you know.( Vivian:  I that's)

Luke:
That speaks to me,... you know,... to a degree.

Vivian:

And that is...

Bow:

And it may not be... necessarily the thing.... Yeah, but I mean that's,.. that's kinda, ...that's the thing it taps into a certain vein ...and becomes popular.

Daisy:

Right.

Vivian:

But, that's, ...that's like you... speaking for themselves,.. well I mean,.. that is the movement among, ...no longer the X generation,.. but is it the E-generation, ..or whatever. ...I mean..., but the youth of.. not just America, ..but any. ..country, ...most of them want,.. you know,(mm) ..they've got funky hair..., and funky clothes ...and they're listening.. to this music that's totally against abortion..., and this ...and that or pro ...or whatever.

Vivian:

But, ....hey, ...(Daisy: They want something that's out there.).. think back twenty,... thirty,.. forty,.. fifty years ago..., there's was flower power, ...they were against this and that.... (Daisy: The Beatles?... Beatles) Yeah, sure.... (Daisy: ...The Beatles was banned.. in some states in America)... The youth of any time period,.. (Daisy: Sure) ...(Luke: It's a generation gap, yeah)... through Art and music to express themselves... (Luke: Those things change fast)... (Bow: In a America?)

Daisy:

But they were, ...they were.

Bow:

Not in Australia, ...though?

Daisy:

No.

Bow:

So Australia loves the Beatles,... but America hates them.

Daisy:

(ha ha ha ) But, ...actually... I was gonna talk about... what Luke was just saying. .(um)..That, ...there are people out there,... that are actually liking this stuff that Emimen ...or other rap artists are talking about.

Vivian:

Sure, even adults.

Daisy:

Even if it means,... you know,... killing women,... or you know, ...raping your mother, ...or whatever he talks about. But maybe, ...I was,... it's just an idea..., (you) what you were saying before about... political correctness..., maybe there are... other people out... there like yourself, ...that are really sick of this.., "I've gotta watch my "Ps and 's, ...and I'm not allowed to... call this person this, ...I'm not allowed to... burn the flag,... I'm not allowed to ....do this, ...I'm not allowed to... do that, ...maybe they're sick of that, ..and they want to... get out there (  the reflex)...and have this shocking stuffs and.. (Luke: It's a reflex).., yeah...

Vivian:

And, ..and I wanted to make my point..., I mean, ..for those people... who are always arguing, ..why don't they go and, ...if there are ....so many people ...out there like that,... they can go (and)...and educate their children to not do ...stuff like that and to..., you know..., follow conservative or ...whatever views that you have. ...I mean they don't go out,... all they do is sit there... and complain about..., you know..., oh they're rapping here... and they're talking about this.. and that. Well, ...they're not educating their own children, ...that's a whole different topic,.(mm). isn't it?

Luke:

As long as it gets a discussion going...

Bow:

The interesting thing that I've noticed,... is that,(uh) ...we are talking about Emimem ...and lyrics and rap and stuff, ...and that's why... in the states they... became popular..., was because they're hearing, .."Oh my God, ...he just said fag or something,"..(mm) so like that. ...But,(uh) Emimem is popular here,.(yeah).. and most people don't even know.. what he's saying... Why is that, ..do you think?

Vivian:

It sounds good to them, maybe.

Bow:

Is that... what it is?... Is it the music?... The rhythm?

Daisy:

Well, well, ..(I,I).I have to say ...that I think there's a lot better rap ..out there rhythmically ...than Emimen,
I think ...it's pretty straight forward. ..His rap,... it's not exactly ...technical or... complex
.... But ...I have to say that ...he is popular ...so he's obviously been marketed... in this country,.(sure  ).. and it's come to this country.... And,... when you have,... what do they have to compare to.., Korean rap? ..you know, ...it's gotta be better than that sorry to say.

Vivian

: If you wanna scrutinize it that... precisely in detail..., hey,.. it's all PR, ..and marketing, ..ok?... That's the reason why he's up there.... (Daisy: They've got money,.. probably) ..There's lots of other rappers ...who sit there and talk about dope ...and killing their Mamas ..and Papas...

Daisy:

You look at ...what's that band out now, (but)..that is, ...all the controversy is around... Is it DJ. Doc? .(mm).They've got, ...their cd is all about... police brutality a..nd their down on the police ..and everything.

Vivian:

(oh, they're say) They're saying.

Daisy:

That was popular twenty years ago.. in the States, ...and Western countries, (mm)..and that's now coming in now.... Perhaps that's.. a reflection of the movement of this culture..., that they are... becoming more open-minded... and they're going through what we, ..probably.., went through twenty years ago.(ha ha)

Bow:

Or just a different thing, ...like I heard in Japan,.. a lot of popular music is about MSG. ...They don't want monosodium glutamate.. in their food,... so that's kind of a big issue.

Vivian:

More... they could still borrowing... from another culture,... and not... coming up ...with their own lyrics, ..or ideas?

Daisy:

Well,.(I think).. I think it's probably..., more along the line that this culture is now, ...actually, (their,their)...their experience..(and,and). and an element of freedom of speech.... And I think that they are..., it's, it must be exciting to them, ...all of sudden these kids,... even if they are not great musicians,... they have an opportunity to say. "...I think this sucks.... that police are this way,... and I think this is.(mm).. terrible.... And that..., that's a gmat, (uh)thing to happen I think...
. Because ...they have definitely been oppressed..(uh).. for(for) a long time... by their own people, ...not by other people, ...but by their own government.

Vivian:

But it's still being censored,... I mean,... the Korean government still censors... a lot of music and... (Daisy:... Sure)... I mean,.. even, ...like you said, ..DJ Doc,... or (uh)is it Mr. Seo Tae.li, ..
(uh) you know, ..a lot of their lyrics, ..even whole songs... are completely censored, ...because... there're foul language ...or the material...

Daisy:

Right, ...they might have like beeps ...and things in there ...but it's still better than... twenty years ago.... I know ...one Korean artist ...who brought his album out, ...and there was no profanity.. in it whatsoever. ...
....And it was just... because ...his lyrics were about,..(um, I) I guess,.. socialist ideas, ..and humanity... (Bow: Who was that?)... Bob Dylan... like type lyrics.... And his album was on sale... for one hour... before the government confiscated... every copy of it ...and wouldn't let it be sold in the county. (mm)
....And I think we've come a long way... in twenty years, ...and this is a good thing.(mm).. And if culture and... ..I think that's what creates Art,.. is if people have this ability.. to express themselves.

Luke:

But the danger in that,.( is ,is ).. is what,... sort of what starts happening,.. you see it a lot in the Western cultures, ...where they have... marketing... down to such an Art...
..... is that controversy sells.... And people would say (mm)...anything just to.. ...become famous,... just to make money.
....(  ) So it's not about ...people's better interests ...and it's not about (  the    )...what you really feel anymore..., what, ..what really, ...what you're trying to... reflect out of society. ...It's just like... being such a.....so out there, and so weird ...and trying shock so many people,... that they talk about you ..and they hate you,... so a large part of Emimen's appeal was.., you know ..(Daisy: People hate you), (right)...people hated him ..and some people really liked him.

Vivian:

That's the reason ...why we gave him his fame.

Luke:

Sure, Yeah,... And the more controversial stuff...(sure, yeah) and Madonna made a... whole career out of it, ...like she's offended everybody... all the way through,... but always just like.. a little bit, like...

Vivian:

Too cool to ...really, ..really hate for real.

Luke:

She never went... too far out there, ...but, I mean,      that's,... that's the thing.

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4. 第2册1. Art and Culture B2的43分45秒到57分13秒结束语音对应的文本

(原文修改版）
  ( Bow:  ....thats, that'a a thing )
Vivian:

(and) And that's the reason ...why governments restrict Art,
...including music and TV... and what not so much,...is because ...they're afraid,..
..... you know, ..( en) take eastern cultures,... for example, ..(um)...in comparison with Western cultures.
They're afraid that their ...(they're)society is going to change too much,(mm)..
. .( to )...you know,... similarly too,... Western cultures.... And then ...there's gonna be violence in schools ....and then.... there's,it's gonna be disrupting their homes ....and the nice culture that they have.

Daisy:

I don't know, .....you know,... you look at like.... some of the.... animated books.... and cartoons in Japan. ....
I think they're way more offensive, (mm)...than some of the rap ....that comes out of the ....United States.
....But(um) I think that... (uh)...at this age, ....don't every single one of us think.... that we can look at some type of Art ...
.or music ....or (um)...(uh) entertainer and say
, ....ok,... this is the real deal,... or this is crap,.(mm).. this is..., you know, ...this is just somebody ...go in it ....for the shock value.
..... I think.... if you're at this age ....you have the ability to do that, ...(Vivian: Sure) ...the danger, ...of course, ....and I think ....what govern-ments are trying to ....protect is children. (  yeah)
....But,.(I)... I think that should be,... you know, ...the parents' responsibility, ...and not the government's responsibility.

Vivian:

....Well..., that was my whole point, too.... Government restrict, ....in that.... for the sake of children (mm)...and teens and what's...

Luke:

But that's... where the families.... have to be more responsible. .
...It is ...true that celebrities really ...are the role models ....for kids these days, ..
..that wasn't the case in the past.(mm).... And celebrity itself ...was never like ...a great thing,....
..... I mean ...now, you know,(someone's) ...someone's really beautiful, ....and they're on a catalog...(mm) or something supermodels,.... I like,.... they may not have anything interesting to say..(  ha ha) .... but people want to hear what they have to say.... It's kinda bizarre,... you know.(yeah)

Vivian:

It was kinda like.... the Wheel of Fortune Vanna White deal,...(mm)
... you know,... she was on there ...for like ten years,and.... everyone's like ...."hot babe, ...hot babe",.... they used to... bet on... what color dress she'd wear,.... every day of the week.... (Daisy: Really?)
....Yeah. ...But then, ...all of a sudden one day,..(what)  what was it,.... the early nineties? ...All of a sudden they said.... "We wanna hear Vanna talk"... and so she started to say... "Hi",..(mm).. and then the next line ....after a couple of months was.... "Hi ....everyone".... and then now ( ha mm)....she actually has two lines ...to say on each show.(haha..)

Luke:

And it used to be like, ...it used to be like,.(the).. the thinkers,..(the the the ) ... the writers, ..and politicians, ...philosophers that would sort of ...form public opinion, ....who would be the(the  the is ) people who ....sort of defined ...what a culture was about and now,.... it says a lot.
.... In that  (the)...  the media, ....and the stars of the media are the ones sort of, ...are considered to be the artists.... and visionaries....(and ,and) and the ones that... kids wanna emulate, ...wanna be like,... and there the ones ...who have such (such such )sway.

Vivian:

But I agree.... they have a lot of force ...but I still agree ....parents all the way... control everything. ...If... they uh, ...got a real... good grip on their children... from an early start,... if all the parents did,.. you know, (  yeah)...the masses all together,..(yeah). you know,... got together and said,... "Hey, we're really watching our kids, ...we're ....giving them good foundations..(yeah) and morals and..."

Bow:

You have to be told not to... fully trust the media.(  well)

Daisy:

Well, Bow, ...you know I know you have a child, ...(ahha)....and I was wondering how do....how do you feel about, ,,,like probably,...(the like ) ..., pornographic comic books ....or that type of influence with your child?

Bow:

(um) I personally like them,.... I wouldn't like, .(hahaha..)..I wouldn't like her to see them... that early on, ....but ...the thing that's kind of interesting is like,....
.....the fact that they say it,.... takes a village to raise a child.(ahha) It's true,,,, because,,,, if you think about like, ,,,for example,,,,, these days... children in the world,....in most developed countries, ....they play video games, ....that's a fun thing for them. ,,,But in Japan, ,,,the more popular games,,, are very, very violent. ,
,,,,But, ...the real violence takes place ,,,in American schools,(mm) ... who aren't allow to play those games, ....you know,,,. So, why is it? ...Is it because they see TV,,,, because they're oppressed, ...why doesn't ,...that much violence happen in Japan?

Daisy:

Maybe we don't know about,...well, ...hey don't have guns, right?

Bow:

Is that why?.....Is it because of guns? .....You think that.... there wouldn't be....as much violence in America without the guns?..... I mean, yeah.

Daisy:

I think that, well,...(weell)  people wouldn't die as often.....I guess.

Vivian:

,,,,But isn't.....(yeah), it always the fact ....with the things you don't know ...the inhibitions that you have...anyway,....anything that you want to...it's ....not open for you, to.... like if your parents say, ....."Don't touch? you wanna touch.(ah ha)

Daisy:

Uh. Interesting point.,....Then could Art be defined (as)....as an expression of something.....that has been suppressed. ....Perhaps that the,,,(uh).... the sexual ....comic books and.... that type of behavior  (mm).... in Japan,....that....(uh).... is so common(uh),.... is sexual....because of s    ual repression ...in(um) their culture?

Vivian:

Maybe.

Luke:

Yeah, ,,(the),,it's a probably pretty hard one,, to sift through, ,,,well, I mean.

Bow:

It depends on the content, too. ,(mm)...I mean if you think about like, ,,,in America they say,,(yeah), you know,,,, "Don't look at Playboys,, when you're young.",,,, or something,(mm),,, but yeah, ,,,we want to,,,, cause we,,,,, we like naked chicks,(haha),,, you know.,,, But it's not like bondage ,,,or tying up woman,,(or), or repressing them ,,,or anything, ,,it's just like...

Vivian:

Like what?,, A woman with big boobs?

Bow:

Yeah, exactly.(ha)

Luke:

What's the difference.... between pornography,,,, and erotica,,,, though. ,,,,They say,,,, that pornography is...(is) racy ,,,and offensive (and uh),,,,and very base in crass.

Daisy:

It degrades women.

Luke:

But erotica is artistic. ,,,,(Bow: Who are they?),,, People,,,, in general,,,, they define,,,, you know ....pornography is pornography ,,,and erotica is erotica, ,,,,and erotica(his)... has this higher standing,,,. And it (Daisy: Artistic.),,,, has more of an artistic element to it.

Daisy:

Well,,,,, I don't know,,,,, but ...you know,,,, exactly, ,,,,what.... you just said,,, that Brandon there,,,, I think like that, ,,,goes back to the point.... I made before.... that, ,,,(Bow: I'm Bow) ,,,you know, America.,,.. Exactly, what you just said that, Bow,,,,, it goes back to the point.... I was talking about before,,,, that in America, you know,,,, women,,(um),, you were saying that,,,,, it just seems natural looking ,(um),,at woman,,,(um) with big boobs,,,, but maybe that's because,,, American society,,, is not.... sexually repressed.

Bow:

I think that,(uh), they.... think that,,,(uh), pornography is,,,, (when)...when women are being ,,,,debased in,,,, film or (Daisy: ,,,,,Yeah,,,, like putting dog collars on them), ,,,,exactly, ,,,,when they're(  what?) making woman to look bad, ,,,,whereas erotica is ....more a mutual consensual thing ,,,between men and woman.

Daisy:

Yeah,,,, I think that's acceptable pornography .....or erotica,,,, if you like,,,,, as long as both.... parties are involved,,,, in some mutually ....acceptable act.,,, That's okay.

Luke:

What about ,,(uh),the Robert Mapplethorpe?,,,, Pornography... or Art?,,,, Robert Napplethorpe was(uh),,,, a homosexual photographer ,,,,who took pictures of black men's penises,,,,, but he also took pictures of flowers.
,,,, And he had an exhibition, ,,,,in Boston, ,,,,,of the black men's penises,,(mm),, and there was protests that ",(uh...),,,This is the pornography".

Vivian:

O.K. Then he was just a queer,,,, with like two personalities, ,,ok?,,,, How about this?,,(um),.... In a newspaper like six months ago,,,,, it was the Herald or ,,,,something like that,,(mm),,, there was a picture,,,, in the culture/Art section,,,,, it was about some movie set,,,, where they had like.... five hundred nude people lying,,,, in the streets.,,, (ahha...)Well, I was, ,,,,I just happen to be reading.... the opposite page ....when my... friend's daughter comes running up ,,,,and my friend,,, and I were reading this one article ...on the opposite side, ,,,,but she comes and says,,, "There,,, you know,,,,, there's butt-naked people ....all over the picture.... on the newspaper"
,,,,,I mean, ,,,and then.... my friend was very,,,, you know, ,,,kind of revolted,,,, and she was like ,,,"How could they put like,,,, you know, ,,,bare naked people,,, on the newspaper".

Daisy:

Well, there's bare naked people,,,, when having sex,,, I don't think that there is ,,,,anything wrong,,, with the nude body.
,,,,If,(ok)... if your,,,, if your,,, I think saying to a child, ,,,because that person is naked,,,(um), it's a bad thing,,,. Probably, ,,,it's gonna give the kid problems later in life.( yeah oh)
...
Luke:

,,,,What about ,,,,why is alright to show ,,,,a person naked ,,,,if they've been killed ,,,or beaten and... dragged through the streets of some city?(mm)

Bow:

Or why is it ok?

Luke:

To celebrate it.

Bow:

Yes, ,,,,on National Geographic ,,,,where you can see.(uh)... African woman's breast.,,, Why is that different?

Vivian:

Yeah, why is that considered Art.(yeah)

Daisy:

As long as, ,,,,if nudity is represented,,, as something ....that's debased.... like a woman ,,,with a dog collar being whipped ,,,,with a cat of nine tails,,,
,,,,. Then of course, ,,,there's something.... wrong with that. ,,,But the human body in itself,,,, if it's naked ,,,and there's a picture of... it being naked.,,,, I don't see that there's.... anything offensive about that,,,, if there's something offensive about ,,,,that.... then there's something wrong,,, with my naked body.

Luke:

(what),...What if it's a man with..,(uh) (with uh ), being whipped,,, by a cat's nine tails?

Bow:

Exactly,,,, Robert Mapplethorpe, ,,same thing,,,, same guy. ,,,That's what he had,,,. He had homosexuals, ,,,in weird positions,,,,, one guy was pissing ,,in another guy's mouth,,,, but then again.... he was a great photographer.,,, He did,,,,(yeah) he made great black and white pictures.

Daisy:

,,,Fair enough, ,,,,,but both of those guys.... were kind of into it.,,,, I think ...the point that I'm getting.... is that a lot of pornography, ,,,,,if they have a woman ...in a dog color,,,, with the cat of nine tails,,,. It's suggesting ....something about ,,,,a women's (um) subservience,,,,, and submissiveness to a male,,,,. And that's wrong.,,,, If you are perpetuating,,,, that ideal of a woman,,,, then to women,,,, in general,,,, that is degrading. ,,
,,,,But, you know,,,,, if, if, that was ,,(uh),,from a homosexual prospective ....acceptable,,,, who am I to say, ,,,I'm nora male homosexual,,,, so I don't know.... what is acceptable or not.... But I am a woman, ..so I can,.(um)..(he) I can offer my opinion ...from that point of view.

Bow:

What about lesbians?

Daisy:

Lesbians?.... Well, they can do ...whatever they want to. .(.I'm not)....I'm not a lesbian.

Bow:

What do you think about them?

Daisy:

What do I think of them?

Bow:

Yeah.

Daisy:

I think that's fine.

Bow:

Really?

Vivian:

She thinks it's great. (...no).....But what if I was talking from ...a very conservative mother's view point..., you know, ....there's lots of mothers ...who ...are against.., for example, ...prayer in schools (haha) or,... you know, certain, ....when you go to Art class, ...you see these pictures... and paintings of nudes..(ahha). and whatever. ...I mean..., they're totally against it.... I mean.... (Daisy: But those pictures aren't...) ....They're saying ....how can you argue that this is Art? ....I don't want... my children exposed... to this sort of thing at this early age or...

Daisy

: But I ..(I)don't think ....their children would be exposed to... homosexual pictures.... They might be exposed to, ..(you) what about David?... I mean..., look at David ...that's a sculpture... from hundreds... and hundreds of years ago ...and that,.(um)... you know.., that....., he's nude, ...his genitals are showing...(.  ah).. You can't censor that,... you can't censor ...the entire Renaissance period.

Luke:

That, ....that sculpture always made me feel really good. ...Actually.(hahahaha...)

Vivian:

Did you guys ever, what is that, ...I don't know... what it is called, ....but there is this... hall where they've made like ....Ten Davids all around this hall..(yeah). and they've chopped off his.... (Daisy: His penis?) Yeah.(hahahaha...)

Bow:

The hall of Justice?

Vivian,

Daisy: Ha Ha...

Bow:

How about the difference between the, ....sculpture say like,.... David, where that,.... was accepted at that time ...and now it's pornography... But, I think, ...in his exhibition..., people chose... and pay money to go inside, ...if you if you believe ...that is pornography,... and it's offensive,.. don't go in, ...don't pay.

Daisy:

Exactly.

Vivian: Right.

Daisy:

Right.(right)

Vivian

: But then (what)... what about... when the artist publicized,...(it's)    it's not something... that you choose... or do not choose ...to go.... in and see..., but... (Daisy: ..But I think, ...it'll be pretty different......) you are forced to almost absorb it. ...You're forced to... look at it in the middle of City Hall?(  ......)

Luke:

You have, ....just as other artists ...have the right to display their stuff .(and and)..and advertise it ...and try to give make them, ...a living for themselves.... People have the right to ...(to) say to disagree..(mm). with it and I think that's the thing,... that's the thing too,.(  I'm..)... about art. Sometimes it'll shoc...k and sometimes it'll annoy, sometimes it'll inspire...., sometimes it'll offend. ...And that's the thing..,(ha) that's its purpose,.(  yeah).. that's what it is supposed to do.... And people can't,... it can't be stifled to suppressed,... it just has to make people .....like,... take an active part,.... (and ,and and,)...and it's great ...if it has that effect on people.... Because a lot of things ...are really just watered down....(these) these days.... (mm)  And Art is one of these pure..., like these good things. ....If it is done... properly  and.... it serves the purpose it's supposed to serve.... It will get people riled up... about something...(yeah). That's important.

Daisy:

And you know, ....even (um) the way... that women have been... perceived through Art,... you know,(um)... like the Botticelli Beauties,... I mean, ...they were quite...(um) curvy,... if you know ...what I mean,..(haha). they were big women.

Bow:

Voluptuous.(ha)

Daisy:

And even in some of the paintings,..(mm).. their breasts were deformed.... (Vivian: Sure)... deformed... and that was like, .(uh)..their breasts had big lumps in them ....and knowing ...what we know today,... and we look back at that,.... those women were.... in like ....developed stages of breast cancer.

Bow

: Salvador Dali.... had like ants .(ha)...and things on women's.. genitals you know,... just like...

Daisy:

Right, ..right, .(right)..but (uh), ...he was, ...he was definitely disturbed, ...yeah,... I love his Art... but there was still definitely something,... he,... actually (Salva) Salvador Dali. ...He had (uh) several paintings... where women wear severed like their parts of their body were in different, (yeah...) in (in) different areas.... And there's actually..., a killer on the loose in Europe ....that's doing... the exact things... out of Salvador Dali's paintings at the moment.(mm).... So has that inspired him?... I guess.... the guy... was just crazy anyway ...and a fan of Salvador Dali's. .(yeah)..But still it was interesting.

Vivian:

Well ....you know,.... I thought it kind of.... ironical...., how everything ....comes back to,... well it can't be resolved anyway.... Why..., because people.... have opinions... Art and culture.... This is everyone expressing themselves..... So... it can never really be resolved.... Is it wrong,... is it right.., is it beautiful..., is it not.(um)... Like..., Luke was making that point ....earlier...(I).. So it's kind of like a matter of.... freedom of speech, ...and that can't be... resolved.

Bow:

Beauty is in ...the eye of the beholder.(  that that that that uh..)

Daisy:

Yes, I was just about to say... the same thing.... And I think that you're right,.. it can't be resolved,.. but I think... that's the purpose of Art, (mm)...to, you know.., inspire debate, ...to.... inspire thought..., to inspire.

Vivian:

And there's always... going to be critics... who don't agree.(ahha)