分拆文本：
3. 第3册2.Euthanasia B2的29分15秒到44分14.3秒的语音文本
Cathy:
What about the aspect of love, though?
If you love somebody,
would you want them to kill themselves
before let's say,
they would naturally die,
or would you want,
because you love them,
you don't want to see them go through pain?
Deb:
Ok.
Cathy:
Like, do you have?
Deb:
No, I was just gonna say like no,
ok, like for our own family members, whatever.
Urn, I have a grandfather
that's got Alzheimer's really badly,
he is not so bad now,
but we all sort of know that it's
going to get pretty bad.
(Cathy: Right)
I'm kind of all for it,
if it gets to a point.
Can we use euthanize him
because he's out of his head?
He is in pain.
He doesn't understand anything.
(Cathy: Uh-uh)
Once he gets to a point where it's really
like that traumatic for the family,
like emotionally traumatizing
for the family or whatever.
Let the poor guy go.
Bow:
Is he in pain, though?
I mean, it's.., it's in the mind.
I mean, what is he actually feeling,
I don't know, if you can...
Deb:
But when it gets to a point where,
like he doesn't get,
I mean, he hasn't had a shower
in a month apparently.
You know what I mean?
Bow:
Is it bothering him?
Or it that bothering other people?
But he doesn't care.
Deb:
No, but, but I think that it does get to a point
where they, they maybe can sort of like
lose all functions,
lose all bodily functions,
they don't even get up any more,
they just don't.
Maybe they start to lose more
like it spreads out beyond,
Alzheimer's whatever, I don't know.
Luke:
It's just like a really slow, slow death then,
(Deb: Yeah, it's)
an excruciatingly slow death.
And I think it's that's,
uh, it's not really love any more.
If it's love, it's more selfish love at that point,
because you want,
you want grandpa around you.
(Deb: Sure you do.)
You want these people around you,
of course you do.
And I don't think there's any guilt in,
in sort of saying like,
let's let him go,
let's let him have a nice,
a nice exit sort of thing.
Deb:
Ya, ya, ya.
Bow:
You're into that, nice poetic.
Luke:
That nice poetic exit,
yeah. No, you don't want to go out
with a lump in your pants and some nurse is.
Deb:
Absolutely you know, you know, that's, that's just the way
that I see it.
I think that if it came to that,
I think I'd rather see him go
than hang on to him,
just and have all the family just
(Cathy: That's a very...)
just, I mean it's out of love
that we'd let him go not out of you know.
Bow:
Yeah, speaking of the love
and speaking of urn,
Steven King
who we we're just talking about earlier,
the movie, uhm, Dolores Claiborne?
(Cathy: Alright.) (Deb: Oh, Yes)
What's about that?
About this woman
who was a real bitch
(Deb: That's a great movie)
and she, um, she wanted to die,
but the love that she had
for Dolores her made,
she treated her like a shit
for her whole life,
and she asked Dolores,
you know will you kill me,
and she, what she throws her
down the stairs or something,
(Deb: I can't remember the end,
but it's an awesome movie,
I remember I really like it.)
and she, uh, she left her her money, I think.
(Deb: Yeah, actually, she did leave her money,)
and then, it turns out in the end
that she really did love her.
It was just her way of showing it,
and Dolores ended up, uh, killing her.
Luke:
Right out of love, out of love.
Deb:
Yeah, because probably,
but also probably
because that was a sort of relationship
where you do what I say.
Bow:
Right, You must kill me.
Deb:
No, but out of respect, she did.
You know, and 'cause also she had the upper hand
at that point,
she could've totally turned the tables,
and made her life a living hell.
Cathy:
Let's say, for example, you have a love like
your husband or your wife,
and they're terminally ill
and they say,
listen I'm in so much pain,
I don't wanna live anymore,
would you please kill me?
Because I, for some reason this person
can't do it themselves.
Would you be able to do something like that?
Would you be able to euthanize somebody
that you love?
(Bow: I wouldn't be able to.)
Deb:
Well, I don't think I could.
(Bow: I couldn't.)
I don't know it'd be really hard.
Because, again, like you would be in
that every special case,
where I'd have to sort of be
in the situation looking at it going,
well yeah, you're really sick,
I know you're not gonna get better
it's the hardest decision to make,
and so maybe I would be the person
that would be like I'll see
what I can do,
I'll try, you know,
talk to a doctor who can get some pills..,
or something to.
Bow:
It depends of the method of death.
(Daisy: Right)
Shooting them or putting, you know...
Cathy:
I have trouble killing a cockroach.
Deb:
You know, not me.
Cathy:
No?
Luke:
If it was more like
a sledge hammer or something...
I wouldn't wanna do it.
There are, there are, There are very peaceful ways
to kill the person.
Cathy:
That would be a very difficult thing
to have to do. (Luke: Sure)
Bow:
What do you think about,
ok, this is like not people but,
back to animals again
(Deb: OK)
like uhm, the Chinese recently,
uh, the people it was in Hongkong,
all these chickens had diseases,
(Deb: Oh, the flu!)
The flu! So they killed like uh,
a million five hundred thousand chickens
by putting them in barrels and gassing them.
That's carbon dioxide.
That's a form of euthanasia, I guess.
Genocide chicken genocide?
Luke:
Um, but people kill poultry everyday anyway.
Poultry is going down
and they're raising poultry,
to kill poultry
(Bow: To eat, though)
to eat! but just to kill them
to knock out a disease.
(Cathy: Like Mad Cow disease as well.)
Yeah, it just...
Deb:
But is it a threat to like humans, right?
Like I mean,
(Bow: But I think they don't know.)
because if they are just looking at
the natural order,
of course, the chickens gotta go.
Bow:
How about like, uh,
a lot of cats every year
and dogs in America are euthanized just
because of population.
Is that, do you believe in that,
do you think that they should be doing that.
Is there other ways to solve the problem?
Cathy:
Yes, the humane society has a rule
if the animal is
after three months in the place,
they have the right to kill it
, to kill it afterward so...
Bow:
But do you think that's right?
or do you think that there would be
other ways of controlling that?
Cathy:
I think it's pretty bad actually. (Bow: Uh-uh)
Luke:
It's unfortunate I think,
but I mean it's, it's I think a necessary evil,
I mean if people don't fix their animals,
they (Deb: Right, right)
will. That's their nature.
Bow:
OK, what about China
who's got almost a billion people.
Are they gonna start doing it just
because they didn't neuter each other.
Luke:
Well, they are trying to do,
uh, like zero-growth population.
Deb:
They are trying to implement that.
Bow:
But it's not gonna work,
you are going against procreation?
Cathy:
But yeah you are thinking about that
like there are so many people in the world,
and there's only a certain number of resources.
(Bow: Yeah, what happens
when there's not enough food?)
Elderly people are taking a lot of money
and stuff like this,
so if you wanna...
Luke:
Yeah, aging populations,
this probably gonna be
a really big issue in about twenty years
when baby boomers all start hitting that age
(Cathy: Oh, yeah)
like our parents' age kind of thing,
when they start getting up to that age,
and they're gonna, want rights.
It's just gonna be a really important weird thing,
(Cathy: It is.)
Because they are used to being people
who always made all the rules.
(Deb: Made the decisions)
When, when everything was starting
to really get going this century.
And I think you're gonna probably,
you'll see more
where they're coming
from and things.
Luke:
I think that that's the just the way,
they'll want to do it.
Deb:
And they could again
be the decision makers for that,
because there are so many of them,
and probably a lot of them will be like,
you know what?
I don't want to die in this way,
I want to go this way.
Cathy:
That could be a turning point.
Deb:
Because there's gonna be
like a loud voice at,
at some point.
There probably will be a loud voice
of baby boomer's wanting it that way.
Bow:
It's very interesting
because it's like, uhm,
with the idea of passing new legislation
on allowing people to euthanize family members
or people that wanna die
allowing them to die,
there's also new technology coming out
that is helping them to live longer
or cryogenics that,
you know, might work.
So it's like a battle against the two things,
like uh, which one is gonna win?
Is it gonna be,
like we are gonna sustain life longer or,
or they're just gonna just kill people
at the drop of a dime ?
Deb:
I'd like to see them,
well I mean who wouldn't,
but like obviously like,
find cures for diseases.
Luke:
Yeah, I think, I think the trend
is gonna be try to extend life.
Deb:
Well, ya, I know that's what you're saying too,
but also like, as ya, well ya, I'd like to see life
be able to go on in a, in a...
Luke:
Educated way, I mean.
Deb:
Yea, like in a way
that they're contributing whatever,
in a way that they're there like,
coherently there.
Cathy:
That's an interesting point
like to find cures,
say for example, you have AIDS,
you have cancer,
those are pretty you know,
terrible ways to die,
and you are at the point like,
ok, I don't wanna live any more,
this really sucks,
you kill yourself,
and a month later they
come up with a cure,
hypothetically that could happen.
(Luke: Sure, yeah)
Daisy:
It totally could, but...
Bow:
Well, I mean it has happened,
it has happened with like polio
and stuff before they came up with
a vaccine people die
from it or tuberculosis things like that.
Deb:
And there is no point in dwelling on it
I don't think,
because this is the decision
you made and if you chose to be euthanized
and like two days later,
they discovered the cure for your disease,
you know, you made that decision,
and there is nothing anybody can do to change it,
you know, maybe your family is gonna feel a little bit badly,
but they let you go through that.
But, you know what, they are gonna have to get over
it it's a sort of why dwell on it,
you know. And you could spend way
too much time to...
Luke:
And you can always explore your options.
I mean if you're like,
I'm thinking about maybe killing myself,
but if you look into it,
you know, you can say
(Deb: And you see that it's close.)
yeah there is there something on the horizon
(Deb: We're going to know.)
or thousands of miles away.
Basically, we have no idea
what you have.
It's gonna get worse and worse,
like exponentially by the day.
Cathy:
Have you ever seen
that movie Lorenzo's oil?
(Bow: Yeah)
Something like this is good?
Bow:
There's also a movie uh,
the Michael Landon Story?
Where uh, he had cancer
and the son was trying to get these medicines from,
from Mexico that would cure his uh,
prostate cancer or something.
Michael Landon was just like,
no son this is just my uh..
. (Luke: Oh, really?)
You will, you will suffer,
he was just like this is
what happened to me,
this is my destiny,
leave me alone.
Luke:
Yeah, I suppose there's, there's...
(Deb: There're something there.)
cause he lived a full life or something.
Bow:
Yeah he had all the fame and fortune,
and bunch of kids,
and a bunch of wives,
and jewels.
Luke:
Ok, I really think,
Yeah, I mean, some people would feel like
they maybe they really would wanna die.
I mean, maybe they're sick and they're...
Deb:
And that's why it's your choice.
Luke:
It's the choice,
it's not like you have to die and stuff.
But I don't think people should be
so freaked out by the idea.
Deb:
They should be allowed
to have the choice.
(Luke: Right, right)
Cathy:
But what you were saying
before about the power of the mind.
I think that's something you know like
I've seen many movies,
and you know the last scene is like
I'm dying now.
But how do you know that?
You have made that decision to die
at that point.
And you have come to terms with everything
in your life even like the unconscious things
you don't even think exist.
So, if you really wanted to die,
maybe you could just die through your mind's power.
Deb:
My mom says that happens a lot
like at the hospice
and stuff like that.
Luke:
They decide one night,
I think I'm not gonna do it anymore.
Deb:
Oh, No. One story that she told me
was a man that
had AIDS or whatever,
and his boyfriend was there
and he would stay and stay and stay.
He wanted to be there for his last moment.
And he finally said,
the sick guy said,
you know, why don't you go get a cup of coffee
and so he left and then he went.
And then he came back
and he was gone.
And my mom had to explain,
you know. It's amazing people
will choose their time to go.
(Luke, Cathy: Yes)
Cathy:
I think, I think, that's true,
so like maybe somebody
that thinks that they wanna die,
they wanna have euthanasia,
maybe they don't really want to
there's some part of them,
that is still hanging on to life.
Or maybe see people
that just hang on, hang on, why is that?
Bow:
Maybe they think they can make it,
make it through.
Deb:
Well, also even when people are told
that they have terminal illness,
you have six months to live,
lots of people will die.
That's a powerful statement to say
you've got six months to live.
Lots, lots of people live,
people will die within that six months,
because they suddenly give up,
but maybe had they not heard those words.
They'd just think well,
they'll just continue,
and continue, and continue. They can't.
Cathy:
Yeah, I've heard of that,
I've heard of that before, after,
right after your doctor says you're gonna die,
you die shortly after.
Bow:
Yeah, I totally believe
in the power of the mind
(Deb: Suggestion almost)
I think there's a lot more to our minds
than we know,
than we are more capable of using.
Deb:
And so then,
if you did open up the avenue of euthanasia,
then suddenly
that avenue gets a little bit
becomes more of a dead end.
Because suddenly,
it's like well,
I'm allowed to go,
so I'm gonna go.
Less people will maybe choose to try
and fight it out or use their own power,
their own mind to come through it.
Cathy:
Right. Maybe if euthanasia was allowed
and you felt like this burden
like your family is going through
this huge financial burden,
maybe then you say, ok, kill me.
But maybe really you're not completely ready to die,
because if you were,
your mind would shut up
and accept that,
and you would die.
Or maybe we haven't really learned
to use our minds completely,
(Bow: I think so.)
and so we can expect
that everybody that wants to die,
could do it themselves that way.
Deb:
It's wow.
Luke:
But I mean a lot of these decisions.
Daisy:
It's so much to think about it.
Luke:
A lot of the situations though,
it's often uh, a case of like,
not actually being um,
given anything,
you're not actually being killed per se
but often just left,
just left alone.
I mean just like stop the machines,
stop all the gadgets and stuff,
(Deb, Cathy: Right)
because maybe you are being forced to stay alive.
Even though you are well passed,
just like, just let me go,
or just take me away.
But because you got this state of the art equipment hook,
hooked up to you
and stuff that's like
literally keeping your heart pumping and stuff.
Cathy:
Manually keeping you alive
that supposedly.
Luke:
Then you could conceivably
and theoretically live
forever, why not, you know.
Bow:
But I think that idea of being hooked up,
and having that technology
is because there is hope
that they will maybe miraculously,
oh, we just found this medicine in Uganda,
and the whatever,
and uh, here take it now, you're better.
That's the whole idea of that.
Luke:
It's a race against time or something.
Bow:
Exactly, and so it's like we gotta try everything
that's humanly impossible
(Deb: Right)
to keep this person alive
as much as we can.
And if we can find it.
Cathy:
Maybe we shouldn't think of life
and death as two completely separate things.
Right, you're living in life,
and you're dying.
Every day every minute,
we are all dying,
we all accept that fact.
(Deb: One closer step to death.)
Right? And so, that the death is just
a course of living.
Bow:
Well, that's yeah, I guess in a certain religion,
that's the idea,
but I mean,
Buddhism is not like that.
It's like a cycle,
so you're living, you're dying,
you're living, you're dying.
Maybe they might think another way.
That’s not, we're not getting closer to death,
but we are getting closer to uh,
(Deb: A new life)
an anniversary.
(Luke: And the government...)
Cathy:
But getting close to,
I think, to that point, right?
Whether it's a death
or it's the start of a new life,
we are always getting closer to that point.
And so do you wanna rush the process,
or do you wanna just let it go.
Luke:
The thing is the people
that make the rules,
like the government.
They don't see it in terms of,
you know, the Buddhist stance or,
you know, the continuum sort of
from life into death.
They just see it as tax paying citizen
(Deb, Cathy: Right.)
stiff, you know, that's really,
they're the ones
who are making the decision.
And who are basically regulating
for the majority of the people
whether or not they have control over them.
Deb:
They make decisions that aren't based on.
Bow:
But if they didn't regulate it,
then I think it would get out of hand
(Luke: I agree)
like we talked about earlier.
So they have to regulate somewhat.
Because that's what governments set up
for to regulate things would get out of hand,
it'd be chaos.
(Deb: Regulations)
